theory Ba-Ado-Mishram Bondsmith Spren Theory

[+Bzhydack he/him]

So, many of us speculate, that BAM could become Bondsmith Spren. But this Theory goes further.

Shortly, i think Ba-Ado-Mishram allready WAS Godspren and had a Bondsmith. During the False Desolation.

FIrst, we know that BAM was earlier general of Odium's forces, but wasnt able to do what she did during False Desolation. Bonding with entire Race was new, not expected by anyone ability. And spren normaly dont have new abilities by themselves. Spren are gaining new abilities by Bond. Or no, they not have new abilities, more like they find new aplications for their abilities. In most cases this is ability to manifest in Physical Realm as Shardblades, and also ability to larger interaction with items, but for Powerfull Spren this can be something different. For Stormfather could be Visions, and also images, map and so on.

We know also Bonding Unmade is possible, like with any other Spren.

We also know killing Bondsmith Spren would have massive consequences for whole Roshar. Imprisonment could do the same.

We can also assume that BAM was able to comand not only Singers, but also Voidspren. They are integral part of Odium's forces, essential for recon, as messengers, spies, or fight in the Cognitive. Maybe BAM could comand Voidspren to start bonding Singers and this was her main power as Unmade. But during False Desolation BAM had ability to provide Voidlight, exactly like Stormfather, Nightwatcher or Sibling. While Stormfather has this ability without Bondsmith, Sibling for example needet Bondsmith, at least now, with damaged Connection to Honor.

BAM is even called little god. Like Godspren?

So this theory goes on. There is two thousand years between Last Desolation and False Desolation. What Singers do during this time? They doesnt fight against Humans all the time. They live, eat, change forms. And research. And have songs about Forms of Power. Someone from them, some Singer Scientist came to conclusion than he can try mimic Human-Spren Bond and try to bond Unmade. And was able to do this. And I can gues who he was.

It was EL.

El, Fused with very, very specific behaviour. Is fascinating with Humans, so I can see why he could try mimic human-spren Bond. He also is scientist, good partner with Raboniel. He literaly experiments with his own body, by replacing carapace with metal. What metal is this? Could be Duralumin?

But El is Fused. Shouldnt he be on Braise during False Desolation?

I think not. Fused are locked on Braise, but probably like Heralds, they need to be killed first and be sent back. If he wasnt killed, if he hide among Singers, it is possiblity he would live on Roshar all the time between Last and False Desolation.

So how all action with False Desolation goes?

Radiants and Melishi are fighting against Singers and came to conclusion there is something wierd about Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Singers have Voidlight and Forms of Power, but Odium is still on Braize. Singers have Bondsmith now. So Melishi wants to go for BAM, even while he knows about Risk for all Roshar. Radiants strike Team assault Singers with El, and Melishi uses his Bondsmith Powers to ripp off Bond with BAM from El. He replaces his Bond with Sibling  with Bond with BAM, then he summons BAM similary to what Dalinar did to Stormfather, and he puts her in perfect gemstone. El sees this, and he strikes Melishi and kills him, but is killed by Radiants companions of Melishi and is sent to Braize. Sibling is damaged but was temporarly unbonded, so damage wasnt lethal. Melishi probably wants to Bond Sibling again, but was killed. When Melishi ripps off El's Bond, El loses ability to hear Rythms (literaly the same happened to Sibling!). When El arrives on Braize suffers Odiums wrath and mistakes his lose with this. He also brings Raboniel knowledge about imprisonment spren in gemstones.

This is why El is so important. Is first Odium Bondsmith, and he is the one who brings knowledge nesessery to kill Heralds.

What do you think?

[Retrac he/him]

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

What do you think?

My first thought was "this looks like a bunch of crap but might as well read it." my last thought "holy %#@$ this is good!!"

It makes a lot of sense and looks well planned out. I can see this happening. My biggest concern is this.

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

He replaces his Bond with Sibling  with Bond with BAM,

Wouldn't getting rid of the bond with the Sibling be similar to breaking the bond and breaking, for lack of a better word, the Sibling?

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 minute ago, Retrac said:

It makes a lot of sense and looks well planned out. I can see this happening. My biggest concern is this.

Wouldn't getting rid of the bond with the Sibling be similar to breaking the bond and breaking, for lack of a better word, the Sibling?

I think it was meant to be more of a voluntary separation, and also that would be prior to BAM's imprisonment, so it wouldn't make the Sibling into a deadeye yet.

[Retrac he/him]

3 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I think it was meant to be more of a voluntary separation, and also that would be prior to BAM's imprisonment, so it wouldn't make the Sibling into a deadeye yet.

Ok thanks. A little off topic what would BAM look like when they were summoned?

Edited February 13, 2021 by Retrac
cant spell

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 minute ago, Retrac said:

Ok thanks. A little off topic what would BAM look like when they were summoned>

Rayesium shardblade? or do you mean something else by "summoned"

[Retrac he/him]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Rayesium shardblade? or do you mean something else by "summoned"

Well the Stormfather is a storm right. So I assume BAM is huge too. So to fit that much "energy" into one blade.... Maybe I'm just to tired to theorize. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 hours ago, Retrac said:

Wouldn't getting rid of the bond with the Sibling be similar to breaking the bond and breaking, for lack of a better word, the Sibling?

We know:

1. Melishi was Sibling Bondsmith before Recreance.

2. Sibling was unbonded during final events of Recreance.

3. Melishi was needet for imprisonment of BAM.

4. Right after Recreance Sibling loses ability to produce Towerlight and withdraws.

So Melishi was Sibling Bondsmith before Strike, but wasn't in moment of Imprisonment. But he also didn't breake Oath, and he was alive, because he was needet to capture BAM. So he somehow unbond Sibling safely.

5 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Rayesium shardblade? or do you mean something else by "summoned"

Not sure IT would efdect with Shardblade. Sibling is whole Tower. But Dalinar was able to summon Stormfather essence to open Oathgate, this would be probably similar.

[Kandrafish]

On 2/13/2021 at 1:12 AM, Bzhydack said:

We know:

1. Melishi was Sibling Bondsmith before Recreance.

2. Sibling was unbonded during final events of Recreance.

3. Melishi was needet for imprisonment of BAM.

4. Right after Recreance Sibling loses ability to produce Towerlight and withdraws.

So Melishi was Sibling Bondsmith before Strike, but wasn't in moment of Imprisonment. But he also didn't breake Oath, and he was alive, because he was needet to capture BAM. So he somehow unbond Sibling safely.  --Dalinar captured the Thrill without breaking his bond.

Not sure IT would efdect with Shardblade. Sibling is whole Tower. But Dalinar was able to summon Stormfather essence to open Oathgate, this would be probably similar.

I really like this theory. I think a bond would explain how Ba Ado Mishram's power increased enough to make forms of power. We see how that happened with the Stormfather and Dalinar.

 

I am a little skeptical, though. I have a few questions.

1 How does the "he who quiets" fit in?

"I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed" -Musings of El (talking about humans). 

This is all that he says about himself. I felt like he needed to be referring to a servant of Odium stripping his Rhythms from him. Because it feels like he is complaining about his old boss (Rayse). But... Are you implying that he tried to use Ba Ado Mishram to enlist humans and give them forms of power and this decision is what made him lose his Rhythms?

This is, perhaps, my own idea, but it is the only way I can think of to bridge your theory to the quote. If you have another explanation, I would love to hear it.

 

2 If he lost his Rhythms with Ba Ado Mishram, why did he lose his title as well?

 

He is a fused scholar of the human arts and he is obsessed with humans, so it would make a little bit of sense that he would experiment with Bondsmith-like bonds?

"They should not be discarded, but helped to their potential. Their final Passions." -Musings of El

 

WoB below

Spoiler

teknopathetic (paraphrased)

I had asked if the Nahel bond was named after "El".

Brandon Sanderson

El's name comes from the same root, but is not the originator of the term.

Is El a new title? This lends itself to your theory, I suppose. El ceased to be Vyre and became El because of the Nahel analogous bond and then he lost his Rhythms...

It was all because he wanted to use BAM to band all the listeners and humans together into an army?

 

I want this theory to click, but I feel like I am missing a piece...

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Dalinar captured the Thrill without breaking his bond.

Yeah, but Thrill is a little different case. Is Unmade, yes, but is also mindless. Is basicly force, power with intent, but almost dont have mind to follow it. So follow this what feels, what makes it more similar to normal emotion or nature Spren, than to sapient Truespren. So should be enough to work with it like with those normal spren.

BAM is different. Is very inteligent (and with Knight would be even more inteligent) and sapient, so maybe not be enough to just "atract" her with something she know. In fact, is possible she would simply kill this person if would be something she didnt like (Remember, Stormfather tried to kill entire army!). So in her case , we need to do something else. But maybe i overcomlicated things and it was simply "Connect to BAM - ferce her to clse - imprison" without all that swaping bonds thing.

2 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

This is all that he says about himself. I felt like he needed to be referring to a servant of Odium stripping his Rhythms from him. Because it feels like he is complaining about his old boss (Rayse). But... Are you implying that he tried to use Ba Ado Mishram to enlist humans and give them forms of power and this decision is what made him lose his Rhythms?

Maybe not that far, but we dont know if he wasnt able to make some allies among humans? Maybe he, as a Bondsmith, was able to Connect some humans to Odium as a proof that they could be valuable soldiers? And Raise didnt liked this.

2 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

2 If he lost his Rhythms with Ba Ado Mishram, why did he lose his title as well?

 

He is a fused scholar of the human arts and he is obsessed with humans, so it would make a little bit of sense that he would experiment with Bondsmith-like bonds?

Many Fused care much (someimes TOO much) about their reputation. Maybe this was form of punishment, but not in the Odium's eyes, but in the other's Fused eyes? Is implied that "He who quites" was very important, very pridefull title. We dont have direct comparison, but can be something similar to stripping from title prince, degradation of general, or taking away title of professor.

2 hours ago, Kandrafish said:

Is El a new title? This lends itself to your theory, I suppose. El ceased to be Vyre and became El because of the Nahel analogous bond and then he lost his Rhythms...

It was all because he wanted to use BAM to band all the listeners and humans together into an army?

If Nahel is in fact Nah El, can mean something like "divine bond", so El alone can be "Bond" in Dawnchant. I know that wil give us "DivineBond Bond" but in fact this is not unheard of in languages, as form of borrowing. So with this El can literally have title "Bond" or "He who bonds".

[Kandrafish]

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, but Thrill is a little different case. Is Unmade, yes, but is also mindless. Is basicly force, power with intent, but almost dont have mind to follow it. So follow this what feels, what makes it more similar to normal emotion or nature Spren, than to sapient Truespren. So should be enough to work with it like with those normal spren.

This is the problem... I like the idea that there is a reason to break the bond with the Sibling... Oh... Maybe you are right and the Sibling suggested that they not be bonded because it would be dangerous! Right! Since the Stormfather whines a whole bunch when Odium is trying to get Dalinar to embrace being His champion.

I forgot that the Sibling is a sentient being. Thinking about it, it would make sense if they both thought "we don't know how dangerous this could be... What if Odium is actually there with Ba Ado Mishram? And what if he tries to unmake the Sibling? Theoretically, a Bondsmith is more expendable than the one and only Sibling!

But then screwing with Ba Ado Mishram ends up messing the Sibling up anyway.

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

BAM is different. Is very inteligent (and with Knight would be even more inteligent) and sapient, so maybe not be enough to just "atract" her with something she know. In fact, is possible she would simply kill this person if would be something she didnt like (Remember, Stormfather tried to kill entire army!). So in her case , we need to do something else. But maybe i overcomlicated things and it was simply "Connect to BAM - ferce her to clse - imprison" without all that swaping bonds thing.

Sorry... Maybe I should have put my comment here... I am liking the first part of this theory more and more.

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Maybe not that far, but we dont know if he wasnt able to make some allies among humans? Maybe he, as a Bondsmith, was able to Connect some humans to Odium as a proof that they could be valuable soldiers? And Raise didnt liked this.

Yeah, this makes sense... Like what they said in the Vyre shardcast. Rayse did not like that El was recruiting humans (without him? because Rayse does want humans in his army, eventually. He said as much to Dalinar.) Perhaps El was taking some step too far that was leading them on bad potential futures...

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Many Fused care much (someimes TOO much) about their reputation. Maybe this was form of punishment, but not in the Odium's eyes, but in the other's Fused eyes? Is implied that "He who quites" was very important, very pridefull title. We dont have direct comparison, but can be something similar to stripping from title prince, degradation of general, or taking away title of professor.

If Nahel is in fact Nah El, can mean something like "divine bond", so El alone can be "Bond" in Dawnchant. I know that wil give us "DivineBond Bond" but in fact this is not unheard of in languages, as form of borrowing. So with this El can literally have title "Bond" or "He who bonds".

Ok, so what if it was a punishment...

El is involved with the Ba Ado Mishram disaster and his title/ name is stripped from him... He decides "I am going to pick a new name" and chooses one that is very close to divinity like Jezerezeh'Elin, Talenelat'Elin and so on... You know that would show people not to mess with me... if Elin means herald (I don't know) then El is saying he is part herald or akin to the heralds...

El is the generic word for god or diety in Hebrew... I don't know if that helps or confuses things.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

22 minutes ago, Kandrafish said:

El is the generic word for god or diety in Hebrew... I don't know if that helps or confuses things.

So maybe we can switch meanings, and Nah would be Bond (Connection? Link?) and El would be Divine. So El would be something around "Godlike" - what actualy make sense, because we were told that Bondsmith have powers of god.

Or maybe Nah is like "Part" or "Piece" - so Nahel Bond could be translated to "Bond with Piece of God" - what is basicly description of it.

But all those are me just throwing random ideas.

Also, one, rather not very connected thing. Vasher has on Roshar name Zahel. Or Zah-El maybe? If El mean God/Divine, this make sense, because Returned were considered gods... But what can Zah mean?

[Kandrafish]

Darn... Zahel probably knows what it means...  Both parts.

[First of the Dun he/him]

This rabbit hole got deep and is a bit rusty, but I was just searching for a BAM and bondsmith theory and this makes sense, at least in part.

if Honor, Cultivation, and their offspring can form Bondsmiths, Odium must as well. BAM is an excellent candidate for the spren of this Connection. Hadn’t thought about El losing their title perhaps due to their belief in humans, but I appreciate those thoughts too. 

It’s all gonna make for an interesting reveal!