Leyrann Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) @Confused's theory to order the Shards made me think about it myself, and I believe that the Shards can be related to the different allomantic and feruchemical properties of metals. Or, more correctly, that the allomantic and feruchemical properties of metals have been designed after the mechanism that ordered the Shards. To back this up, we have this WoB about allomancy in relation to the Shards: Quote Stormgate Can the 16 Shards be mapped onto the chart of Allomantic metals? i.e. does each Shard have a corresponding Allomantic metal? Brandon Sanderson The Shards were first. The metals are in a way a...further division on an established pattern. Short deviation on the relaionship between allomancy and feruchemy (fair note, I think you can skip this part and still understand what I'm saying; it's just that I want to show how allomancy and feruchemy are related beyond just using the same metals) The allomantic table has been ordered into the physical, mental, enhancement and temporal groups, wheras the feruchemical table has been ordered into physical, cognitive, spiritual and hybrid groups. Additionally, the allomantic table has been further divided into internal and external and pulling and pushing. Though it is lost in the feruchemical table on coppermind, the correct ordering has symmetry in crystal structures of the pulling metals (alloys do not have a clean crystal structure), further implying that the metals are supposed to be ordered in this way*. I personally believe that the allomantic table's groups could also have been described as physical, cognitive, spiritual and hybrid. This because the "mental" metals are related to emotions (which are cognitive) and the emanation of "pulses" when metals are burned, which seem to be cognitive in nature as well. The enhancement metals, meanwhile, are related to the burning of metals themselves, which seems more spiritual in nature (Investiture comes from the Spiritual Realm, after all), and I believe the temporal group works in several Realms at once. In gold and electrum's case, it reads the Spiritual Realm and shows it in a cognitive or physical way (you can actually see the past/future version of yourself), and in cadmium and bendalloy's case I just think speeding up or slowing down time does not work in only one Realm. I would also not be surprised if there is something spiritual about time. *There is actually an error in this symmetry, as tin has two possible crystal structures, and the structure it is supposed to have in the table is the one that appears only below room temperature (about 13 degrees celsius or lower). Though I do not have the source with me now, Brandon has previously said that he first intended for another metal to fill this spot, but switched to tin; though I do not remember by heart which metal this was, I do remember looking it up and finding that, indeed, it had this crystal structure as well. Edit: The original metal was silver, thanks to @John203 for helping me out there. The relationship between the tables and the Shards I think that the Shards can be ordered in four groups of four and that the allomantic and feruchemical properties of the metals are based on them. However, we do not know all the Shards, while we do know all the allomantic and feruchemical properties, so let's try to reverse engineer what they were based on. I'll start with quadrants and apply Shards to their metals, instead of the other way around, as the known structure makes it easier to order. Having said that, I do not think the Shards themselves are (primairily) physical, cognitive, spiritual or hybrid, though I wouldn't necessarily rule it out either. Expand the spoilers for explanations. First (physical) quadrant: Steel: Survival Shard? Iron: Honor Pewter: Unknown Shard Tin: Endowment Spoiler I put the Survival Shard on steel for steel's pushing properties, as I think the Intent may be related to staying away from other things. It might be totally off, however, as we obviously do not know a lot about the Shard. On the feruchemical table, it aligns to physical speed, which seems fitting for a survival Shard. I put Honor on iron, as Honor's Intent is commonly interpreted (at least on the forums) as "binding things together", and iron is about pulling things (the user + the metal) together. On the feruchemical table, it aligns to physical weight, which may also be interpreted as a bond, as we know from the Way of Kings ars arcanum that the gravitation Surge revokes a spiritual bond with the planet. What feruchemical iron does may be something similar. Endowment got tin, as allomantic tin increases senses, which aligns with, well, being endowed things in a more direct way than any other metal except arguably pewter. Second (cognitive) quadrant: Zinc: Odium Brass: Devotion Copper: Autonomy Bronze: Dominion Spoiler This is the only filled out quadrant. I was uncertain at first wheter Odium should gain zinc or brass (he claims to ignite passion, but as has frequently been said he also takes away feelings), but in the end, partially because of the unmade, and partially because he calls himself passion, I decided to give him zinc. Also note how a zinc misting is called a rioter, which is a similarly negative connation with emotion that Odium seems to have. The feruchemical ability related to zinc is "mental speed", of which I don't know how accurate it is - as far as I am aware, we do not know wheter or not there are differences between how fast shards can think. The other reason I put Odium on zinc was because Devotion to me feels like a natural fit to brass, soothing emotions, as Devotion, to me, is like a calming intent. Additionally, Brandon had originally considered calling the Shard "Love" instead, and love can calm most other emotions in a person. In the feruchemical table, brass aligns with warmth, but Brandon has said (I hope this is common knowledge? I'm lazy and in a hurry so I would prefer not looking up the WoB) that he made a mistake in the table with warmth, but left it in both because the book was in print already and because he felt like it did not need to be perfect. Rather than warmth, brass was originally intended to store determination, which seems very fitting for a shard called Devotion. I put Autonomy on copper for a very simple reason: Autonomy hates interference but has no problem interfering herself. So she's hiding herself while doing stuff. Additionally, the multiple persona thing seems to fit with the feruchemical storing of memories. Dominion was the shard that was hardest for me to place (I thought about it longer than the Survival Shard, actually), and is one that I am not very certain of, but I figured that one could consider "Dominion" as "ruling", meaning that he would need to be aware of what was all happening, hence bronze. Third (spiritual) quadrant: Duralumin: Unknown Shard Aluminium: Ruin Nicrosil: Unknown Shard Chromium: Unknown Shard Spoiler Ruin clearly belongs in this quadrant, but I am not certain wheter he would fit better with aluminium or chromium, as both are very similar in effect allomantically. Considering his inability to see the future, however, I put him at aluminium (stores Identity) rather than chromium (stores Fortune), however, also because he seems to be fond of impersonating people. I also consider this the weakest link in the theory, as I do not see how different from one another the shards in this quadrant would be Fourth (hybrid) quadrant: Gold: Unknown Shard Electrum: Unknown Shard Cadmium: Preservation Bendalloy: Cultivation Spoiler Pretty simple. Preservation wants everything to freeze as it is, hence slowing down time and storing breath (after all, if something is perfectly preserved it does'nt need breath), while Cultivation wants things to change, meaning speeding up time and storing energy (after all, energy is required for all change) Finding the other Shards I believe that, if this system is correct, we might be able to at least take a guess on the Intents of the unknown Shards from the properties we have here, though there will be a lot of guessing involved there. I'll give this a shot soon, but right now I'm going to hit post because I don't have much more time. I'll probably edit some guesses in. Edited January 8, 2018 by Leyrann 3
Fezzik Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Leyrann said: the feruchemical table has been ordered into physical, cognitive, spiritual and hybrid groups. Not anymore. MB RPG is not a Canon source. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246-alloy-of-law-17th-shard-qa/#e5508 And silver was originally tin. 1
Oversleep Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 What @John203 said. Feruchemy has 8 Physical metals, 4 Cognitive metals and 4 Spiritual metals. The "Hybrid" thing is coming from MAG which is not canon. If it wasn't for the whole mess with switching brass with electrum, you could see it clearly in quadrants. But Feruchemy does not obey the same categorization of quadrants as Allomancy does. 1
Yata he/him Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 Trying to make the Shards fit with the Metallic Arts' metals is something that arose sometime. The attempts to make this are resulting in mostly arbitrary decisions that forgot 1 or 2 of the Metallic Arts. For example I could argue that having see the direct involvment of two godmetals....the mundane metals associated with those Shards are the One more near to the effects of their godmetals. For example pairing Ruin with Electrum. Someone else could try to use the relationship between Shards to fit the metals...so opposite Shards will have paired metals (ex. Ruin-preservation as gold-electrum or cadmius-bendalloy). Still others could try to use the Feruchemical effects to fit this hipotetical table...as you see It's too an arbitrary decisions. Much more the Allomantic Powers were chosen to fit the Need of a thieft crew so It's unlikely for them to be' linked so tighty to the Shards. This without considering the Shattering could has resulted in 16 Shards differently by the one we have 1
Leyrann Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 7 hours ago, Oversleep said: What @John203 said. Feruchemy has 8 Physical metals, 4 Cognitive metals and 4 Spiritual metals. The "Hybrid" thing is coming from MAG which is not canon. If it wasn't for the whole mess with switching brass with electrum, you could see it clearly in quadrants. But Feruchemy does not obey the same categorization of quadrants as Allomancy does. Well that's annoying... Should be fixed on coppermind then, because that's where I took it from. I presume the metals that are called "hybrid" are then physical in nature as well? 1 hour ago, Yata said: Trying to make the Shards fit with the Metallic Arts' metals is something that arose sometime. The attempts to make this are resulting in mostly arbitrary decisions that forgot 1 or 2 of the Metallic Arts. For example I could argue that having see the direct involvment of two godmetals....the mundane metals associated with those Shards are the One more near to the effects of their godmetals. For example pairing Ruin with Electrum. Someone else could try to use the relationship between Shards to fit the metals...so opposite Shards will have paired metals (ex. Ruin-preservation as gold-electrum or cadmius-bendalloy). Still others could try to use the Feruchemical effects to fit this hipotetical table...as you see It's too an arbitrary decisions. Much more the Allomantic Powers were chosen to fit the Need of a thieft crew so It's unlikely for them to be' linked so tighty to the Shards. This without considering the Shattering could has resulted in 16 Shards differently by the one we have Yeah, I realize it pops up every now and then, it seems like an obvious connection. With the WoB I quoted at the start of the post, however, I think that we can find some kind of connection between at least Shards and allomantic metals, as they are apparently mapped to the same pattern (or the Shards created the pattern and allomancy was mapped on it). I do not think it's as simple as "Pair them with their god-metals" or "Give every Shard it's opposite and pair them off". For the first one, we don't know enough god-metals, and we most likely never will, and for the second one, we know not every Shard has a clear opposite. I realize it can become arbitrary pretty fast, but that doesn't mean that there's no truth in there, and we do have that WoB, which I believe is worth diving into, if nothing else. As for the allomantic powers being chosen to fit the needs of a thief crew, that's true out of universe, but I don't doubt that there is an in-universe justification for using these metals and abilities as well.
Oversleep Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 10 hours ago, Leyrann said: Well that's annoying... Should be fixed on coppermind then, because that's where I took it from. I presume the metals that are called "hybrid" are then physical in nature as well? Yeah, it should be fixed. Coppermind is severely understaffed though; we should be the ones to fix it but then many people are afraid to delve into wiki editing. Here's how the powers in Feruchemy are: Metal/Feruchemical power/ Iron: Weight - Physical attribute Steel: Physical speed - Physical attribute Tin: Senses - Physical attribute Pewter: Strength - Physical attribute Zinc: Mental speed - Mental attribute Brass: Warmth - Physical attribute Copper: Memories - Mental attribute Bronze: Wakefulness - no idea. It can be both physical and mental. Probably mental, it'd fit nicely and complete mental attributes. Cadmium: Breath - Physical attribute Bendalloy: Nutrition - Physical attribute Gold: Health - Physical attribute (confirmed because Inquisitors had this power stolen by pewter spikes + epigraphs + WoB) Electrum: Determination - Mental attribute (speculation) Those four are clearly Spiritual powers: Chromium: Fortune Nicrosil: Investiture Aluminum: Identity Duraluminum: Connection As you can see, if it wasn't for the mistake back in the day Brandon did (switching brass with electrum), we'd have 2 full quadrants of Physical, 1 of Cognitive and 1 of Spiritual. 1
Leyrann Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, Oversleep said: Yeah, it should be fixed. Coppermind is severely understaffed though; we should be the ones to fix it but then many people are afraid to delve into wiki editing. Here's how the powers in Feruchemy are: Spoiler Metal/Feruchemical power/ Iron: Weight - Physical attribute Steel: Physical speed - Physical attribute Tin: Senses - Physical attribute Pewter: Strength - Physical attribute Zinc: Mental speed - Mental attribute Brass: Warmth - Physical attribute Copper: Memories - Mental attribute Bronze: Wakefulness - no idea. It can be both physical and mental. Probably mental, it'd fit nicely and complete mental attributes. Cadmium: Breath - Physical attribute Bendalloy: Nutrition - Physical attribute Gold: Health - Physical attribute (confirmed because Inquisitors had this power stolen by pewter spikes + epigraphs + WoB) Electrum: Determination - Mental attribute (speculation) Those four are clearly Spiritual powers: Chromium: Fortune Nicrosil: Investiture Aluminum: Identity Duraluminum: Connection As you can see, if it wasn't for the mistake back in the day Brandon did (switching brass with electrum), we'd have 2 full quadrants of Physical, 1 of Cognitive and 1 of Spiritual. Yeah, that's basically what I figured after your post. As for the brass and electrum switch, whenever I'm doing theory stuff I swap them in my mind.
SiskinEDGE Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 What I'm wondering If a zinc or brass allomancer was in the cognitive realm could they soulcasting something?
Leyrann Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 19 hours ago, SiskinEDGE said: What I'm wondering If a zinc or brass allomancer was in the cognitive realm could they soulcasting something? Probably not; just because they're in a different Realm doesn't mean that their allomancy isn't still related to emotions.
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