[OB] An argument for becoming a Stoneward

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

Ok so I've been thinking about this comment and though I don't think I'll be able to change your mind I would just like to address on a couple of things:

1: The whole "it's not just street urchins that can be this" thing is like, the opposite of the point Sanderson was trying to make with Lift: he said somewhere (can't find the quote just now) that Lift is interesting to him because she goes against the concept of paladins/knights only being blonde, noble young men, they can also be small Latinx teenagers. For this reason an Edgedancer Adolin seems almost counterproductive to me? The Edgedancer story is the other way around.

2: Even if we say that Lighteyes can and should be Edgedancers I still don't think Adolin fits - he doesn't seem to have personal reasons for swearing Lift's ideals.

3: Lift choosing to remember and listen is in no way a small learning curve, it's an incredibly noble and difficult commitment for her to make.

1. A story is only innovative when it is new, re-use it for 50 different characters and it stops being innovative. Have Brandon take all of his knights into street urchins and disgruntled people has started to get old: variety is also important. I personally envisioned the story as "anyone can be a knight", people like Lift, but people like Adolin too. The idea he should be bared from an order for this reason only is truly counter-productive and not the other way around. Considering what the Edgedancers are standing for, having Adolin grow into one would be, IMHO, about a hundred times more interesting than Lift because it would involve great changes and him going against his upbringing, his society and everything he was taught was important. This is much more interesting then yet another urchin who learns to care and listen to other urchins. This... was not great growth, just Lift saying the obvious.

2. He doesn't seem because has no character development. If Brandon wants to give him some, then I am sure he will make it more personal. Obviously, I have lost all confidence in Brandon's ability to do so, but it doesn't change the fact it could happen, if the author was willing to write it.

3. It was the tiniest of the progression was have seen. She is a street urchin. She understands what it is to be a street urchins: she is thus about a thousand times more inclined to have care for other people just like her than anyone else. She is also used to listen to other street urchins, she has no prejudice regarding street urchins which she would need to overcome to achieve it. What great hardship was there for Lift to overcome in her oaths? Her third oaths came across as a formality, something she was naturally doing, but had to voice out loud. There was very little growth involved.

[Ymawgat]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I personally envisioned the story as "anyone can be a knight", people like Lift, but people like Adolin too.

I guess that's fair. I guess I would still say that Adolin being an Edgedancer wouldn't be more interesting that Lift being a Radiant at all.

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

2. He doesn't seem because has no character development. If Brandon wants to give him some, then I am sure he will make it more personal. Obviously, I have lost all confidence in Brandon's ability to do so, but it doesn't change the fact it could happen, if the author was willing to write it.

Isn't that the equivalent of saying "the evidence might exist in the future"?

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

It was the tiniest of the progression was have seen. She is a street urchin. She understands what it is to be a street urchins: she is thus about a thousand times more inclined to have care for other people just like her than anyone else. She is also used to listen to other street urchins, she has no prejudice regarding street urchins which she would need to overcome to achieve it. What great hardship was there for Lift to overcome in her oaths? Her third oaths came across as a formality, something she was naturally doing, but had to voice out loud. There was very little growth involved.

1: Adolin doesn't have any prejudice either.

2: being a street urchin doesn't necessarily make you care more, it can also make you think only about your own survival.

3: saying that her ideals are "only a formality" misses the point of radiant ideals altogether. Kaladin is "used" to protecting people, but also used to failing, and used to his actions not having any affect. The reason his second ideal is so important is that it's a commitment to trying anyway, and it clearly takes him a long time and effort for him to get to that point. The same is true for Lift: she is incredibly used to the universe just, not caring about small people, (and it's clear that her spiritual cracks/trauma is wrapped up in this too) but she still makes that commitment anyway, even though it puts her in mortal danger at the time. She goes against everything she's ever been taught about survival in saying her ideals.

[mosaab]

26 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

3: saying that her ideals are "only a formality" misses the point of radiant ideals altogether. Kaladin is "used" to protecting people, but also used to failing, and used to his actions not having any affect. The reason his second ideal is so important is that it's a commitment to trying anyway, and it clearly takes him a long time and effort for him to get to that point. The same is true for Lift: she is incredibly used to the universe just, not caring about small people, (and it's clear that her spiritual cracks/trauma is wrapped up in this too) but she still makes that commitment anyway, even though it puts her in mortal danger at the time. She goes against everything she's ever been taught about survival in saying her ideals.

I agree.

It's not about doing the right thing when it costs you nothing, it's about doing the right thing when it might cost you everything.

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by mosaab

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Ymawgat said:

I guess that's fair. I guess I would still say that Adolin being an Edgedancer wouldn't be more interesting that Lift being a Radiant at all.

I personally find it more interesting because all the knights we have are atypical. By making the atypical the normality, the author as reinforce the idea the generally typical choice has become... atypical. I also find progression for Adolin's character, to meet the Edgedancers ideals, would be more stringent, more poignant, more interesting than Lift. Why? Because he is farther away from them, because he isn't the obvious choice for the order. In fact, he is not a choice at all, that's why he got so interesting.

1 hour ago, Ymawgat said:

Isn't that the equivalent of saying "the evidence might exist in the future"?

The answer to this is both complex and simple. I could write you a ten pages essay on how the Edgedancers oaths could be very personal for Adolin's character, but I am severely disillusioned by Brandon's will and ability to really steer Adolin's character towards interesting and meaningful development. In short, the character we have, on paper, has this ability, but the author has chosen not to use him in this fashion nor to positioned him in a place where it might happen. So it isn't the evidence might exist in the future, it is more the evidence used to exist, but the author chose to ignore it when he wrote OB or he put Adolin into a seat which makes it less probable his potential development as an Edgedancer will be as interesting as it should be.

1 hour ago, Ymawgat said:

1: Adolin doesn't have any prejudice either.

2: being a street urchin doesn't necessarily make you care more, it can also make you think only about your own survival.

3: saying that her ideals are "only a formality" misses the point of radiant ideals altogether. Kaladin is "used" to protecting people, but also used to failing, and used to his actions not having any affect. The reason his second ideal is so important is that it's a commitment to trying anyway, and it clearly takes him a long time and effort for him to get to that point. The same is true for Lift: she is incredibly used to the universe just, not caring about small people, (and it's clear that her spiritual cracks/trauma is wrapped up in this too) but she still makes that commitment anyway, even though it puts her in mortal danger at the time. She goes against everything she's ever been taught about survival in saying her ideals.

1. Adolin believes the lighteyes are above the darkeyes. He may not be mean towards other people, but he believes in the order of things. As such, to have him start to really care about the forgotten would be a massive flip over of his character. He cares, but as many have been keen to point out, it is not enough.

2. True, but it also makes you less prejudice against other street urchin. It makes you more inclined to have sympathy for people you understand the struggles. Adolin has shown he doesn't understand the struggles of the lesser people, not because he is a bad person, but because he never really lived them nor seen them. To open-up his eyes would demand serious writing.

3. Kaladin started up by protecting only the people he wanted and liked. He had to progress to start including everyone and considering his past, he had a lot of demons to face to do it. Which demons did Lift have to face to listen to the other girl? None at all. She was listening from the start, she just hadn't say the words. Also, Lift might be used about the entire universe not caring, but the entire universe is not her. She always cared. She tried not to care, but she did nonetheless. It wasn't such a character defining moment as you make it sound. I find it incredibly more difficult from someone being "the entire universe" to start to care then the one having been spurn by it in the first place. It is always easier for the low born to support the rebellion because it is made for them, but for the high born to change their ways because they are wrong, it demands much more growth.

[Ymawgat]

Ok so I think we might just be arguing in circles at this point but,

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally find it more interesting because all the knights we have are atypical.

Kaladin and Dalinar can hardly be called atypical. Kaladin is a natural leader and the only part of it that's different is his refusal to take the shardblade from Helaran's corpse. Likewise the only **different** thing about Dalinar is the fact that he doesn't fight much anymore.

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

True, but it also makes you less prejudice against other street urchin. It makes you more inclined to have sympathy for people you understand the struggles. Adolin has shown he doesn't understand the struggles of the lesser people, not because he is a bad person, but because he never really lived them nor seen them. To open-up his eyes would demand serious writing.

 

7 minutes ago, maxal said:

I find it incredibly more difficult from someone being "the entire universe" to start to care then the one having been spurn by it in the first place. It is always easier for the low born to support the rebellion because it is made for them, but for the high born to change their ways because they are wrong, it demands much more growth.

I think you maybe missed the point I was trying to make in my original post? Caring about others isn't the main factor when it comes to ideals being accepted, what is important about each ideal we've seen is that they were each personal to the character making them, and each one was very deeply related to the person's trauma or "spiritual cracks". See the original post for examples of this.

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

Kaladin started up by protecting only the people he wanted and liked. He had to progress to start including everyone and considering his past, he had a lot of demons to face to do it. Which demons did Lift have to face to listen to the other girl? None at all.

I don't agree with you on this at all. Lift clearly has trauma related to her oaths.

I may be guilty of doing what I accused you of doing and just assuming that evidence to support my point will show up in future books but I do honestly think we'll see that Lift has brought her demons with her out of Rall Elorim, and that they are at least as bad as Kaladin's.

[maxal]

15 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

I think you maybe missed the point I was trying to make in my original post? Caring about others isn't the main factor when it comes to ideals being accepted, what is important about each ideal we've seen is that they were each personal to the character making them, and each one was very deeply related to the person's trauma or "spiritual cracks".

And others have explained why the oaths, the order doesn't have to be related to the "spiritual cracks". There is ample evidence the correlation is not what you want it to be. I saw no reason to add to what has already been said by others.

16 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

I don't agree with you on this at all. Lift clearly has trauma related to her oaths.

I may be guilty of doing what I accused you of doing and just assuming that evidence to support my point will show up in future books but I do honestly think we'll see that Lift has brought her demons with her out of Rall Elorim, and that they are at least as bad as Kaladin's.

And Adolin, shall he ever say oath, will also have trauma related to them. You keep on saying he can't be an Edgedancer because you cannot view how those oaths would ever be personal because he doesn't have, according to you, the right trauma. This is indeed going into circle: Adolin doesn't have trauma. He doesn't have it for any order: his non-existent trauma does not make him more suitable for another order, it does not exist. Everything having to do with Adolin becoming a Radiant has to deal with a given amount of speculation because:

1) Adolin is not a Radiant.

2) Adolin is likely not broken or if he is, the story hasn't explained it well enough nor made it a significant enough plot point.

As for Lift, comparing pains is a dangerous exercise: I do not agree we have ground basis to state her demons are worst than Kaladin. If losing your mother as a child is traumatizing, even more so if you become an urchin because of it, then I certainly think Adolin ought to be a very traumatize individual. Sure he wasn't made an urchin, but I kind of think having your drunk father constantly diminish you, bash you, reduce you and order you around is really not a walk in the park in the park. Just as I think standing strong, taking the rebuffs and thinking your father is right to have them, worst considering they are a sign of love and care... that's also not a very healthy life. Worst, writing this recalled me of old videos we watch in sexuality class while being in High School... It was exactly that. The same thing. Oh people are going to disagree with me, but it is just identical to those old videos made by someone famous here nobody ever heard of on this sub.

My point is there is a lot within Adolin's character Brandon can use to make his growth really interesting, the problem is it doesn't seem to want to do it.

[Ymawgat]

Ok one last thing:

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

And others have explained why the oaths, the order doesn't have to be related to the "spiritual cracks". There is ample evidence the correlation is not what you want it to be. I saw no reason to add to what has already been said by others.

No they haven't? I literally haven't seen any evidence to suggest this on this thread or elsewhere.

[Beatsmorn]

Oh, come on.

There are PLENTY of situations in first two tomes when he acts following Ideals of Edgedancers. You know, like him defending prostitute in Sadeas' camp? Or remembering the names of his whole personal guard? He cares for his soldiers and his people, and I don't really see what he has in common with Stonewards.

Also, he may be broken. Check scene when he kills Sadeas. You do not need to survive tragedy or physical pain to be Snapped.

[GoddessIMHO]

Adolin is often remembering the forgotten and listening. He spends too much time on some unimportant things like fashion which is an Edgedancer fault.

Taking time to visit Galant when Dalinar has no time for him.  Being a little broken from losing Sureblood. Still remembering the soldiers who died at the tower when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. 

He treats the dark eyes with respect even though he is a prince of the light eyes. In TC he goes to help the common soldiers who have been left on their own.

He can practically glide through a fight already.

[Calderis]

@Ymawgat in my opinion, in order for Maya to be revived, Adolin must become an Edgedancer. Absolutely must. Consider this.

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond let's them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

The part missing from Maya that was removed is the part that forms the Nahel bond its. For her to be healing means that is being replaced. 

As to the bonds needing a specific type of trauma... We have no evidence of that. Ym was a truthwatcher, but we know he was considered by the Ring as a potential Edgedancer for Wyndel to bond. Additionally, in Mistborn

Spoiler

The type of allomancer a person is, is decided at birth, snapping is only required to allow cracks in the Spiritweb for investiture to pour in. 

Quote

-mobile issues, disregard-

As to the possibility of Maya herself somehow being changed into a completely different spren type... I don't think that is even possible. 

[Ymawgat]

19 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

Oh, come on.

There are PLENTY of situations in first two tomes when he acts following Ideals of Edgedancers. You know, like him defending prostitute in Sadeas' camp? Or remembering the names of his whole personal guard? He cares for his soldiers and his people, and I don't really see what he has in common with Stonewards.

Also, he may be broken. Check scene when he kills Sadeas. You do not need to survive tragedy or physical pain to be Snapped.

 

Just now, GoddessIMHO said:

Adolin is often remembering the forgotten and listening. He spends too much time on some unimportant things like fashion which is an Edgedancer fault.

Taking time to visit Galant when Dalinar has no time for him.  Being a little broken from losing Sureblood. Still remembering the soldiers who died at the tower when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. 

He treats the dark eyes with respect even though he is a prince of the light eyes. In TC he goes to help the common soldiers who have been left on their own.

He can practically glide through a fight already.

1. I'm not arguing that he doesn't show Edgedancer traits, I just don't think those things are personal enough to him for them to result in oaths.

2. I don't think being broken so that you can become Radiant is the same thing as being snapped?

[Ymawgat]

9 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

...

The part missing from Maya that was removed is the part that forms the Nahel bond its. For her to be healing means that is being replaced. 

I guess that's a fair point. My only real counter argument to this would be like, if it's going to take a miracle too happen no matter what, why not make it a miracle that better suits Adolin?

11 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

As to the bonds needing a specific type of trauma... We have no evidence of that. Ym was a truthwatcher, but we know he was considered by the Ring as a potential Edgedancer for Wyndel to bond. Additionally, in Mistborn....

1: I gave a good chunk of evidence in my original post.

2: Edgedancer and Truthwatcher are orders that are next to each other, so they're bound to be more similar right?

3: What evidence do we have that "Radiant breaking" works the same way as snapping?

14 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

As to the possibility of Maya herself somehow being changed into a completely different spren type... I don't think that is even possible.

I was under the impression that this was how soulcasting worked?

[Beatsmorn]

13 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

 

1. I'm not arguing that he doesn't show Edgedancer traits, I just don't think those things are personal enough to him for them to result in oaths.

2. I don't think being broken so that you can become Radiant is the same thing as being snapped?

1. I think we can stop at this place, as you will probably shrug any example with "this isn't IMO personal enough" 

2. It is the same thing. 

[Ymawgat]

1 minute ago, Beatsmorn said:

I think we can stop at this place, as you will probably shrug any example with "this isn't IMO personal enough"

That's...fair I guess? But I just so far haven't heard an explanation for how it could be personal to him?

5 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

It is the same thing.

What is you evidence for this?

[Beatsmorn]

1 minute ago, Ymawgat said:

I guess that's a fair point. My only real counter argument to this would be like, if it's going to take a miracle too happen no matter what, why not make it a miracle that better suits Adolin?

1: I gave a good chunk of evidence in my original post.

2: Edgedancer and Truthwatcher are orders that are next to each other, so they're bound to be more similar right?

3: What evidence do we have that "Radiant breaking" works the same way as snapping?

I was under the impression that this was how soulcasting worked?

Soulcasting works by changing Cognitive aspect of object. That is not the same as transforming spren. Not every object has an spren, no matter what Rosharans think. 

Basic mechanics of magic in whole cosmere are the same. Every positive-end magic system requires snapping before u can access the power. Allomantic snapping is just the same thing as Surgebinders' one, Surgebinders having to follow Ideals are different thing. 

[Beatsmorn]

Ok, seems I was kind of wrong about snapping? Up to your interpretation. 

Questioner

So there’s Snapping on Scadrial, where an event happens and then you can use the magic.  Is there something like Snapping on Roshar, where...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no.  They’re working under the same sort of assumption, the spren are just looking for a specific thing that is similar to what Snapping does.

[Ymawgat]

Ok I feel like a pedantic jerk for continuing to argue about this but

1 minute ago, Beatsmorn said:

Soulcasting works by changing Cognitive aspect of object. That is not the same as transforming spren.

It's called Soulcasting, and like, what else is Shallan talking to when she talks to the stick in Words of Radiance?

5 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

Not every object has an spren, no matter what Rosharans think.

Again like, you can't just say this as an argument, what is your evidence?

2 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

Ok, seems I was kind of wrong about snapping? Up to your interpretation.

Ok cool, I guess it's more subjective then. Thanks for doing the work in looking for that.

[Beatsmorn]

2 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

Ok I feel like a pedantic jerk for continuing to argue about this but

It's called Soulcasting, and like, what else is Shallan talking to when she talks to the stick in Words of Radiance?

Again like, you can't just say this as an argument, what is your evidence?

Ok cool, I guess it's more subjective then. Thanks for doing the work in looking for that.

Questioner

Why have we not seen strong emotions like love or hatespren?

Brandon Sanderson

So. *pause* That's a good question, it actually is something I've considered a lot. Spren, it's hard to explain, but I'm going to try and vocalize it. It's partially that s-- that emotions that are like that are so individual to each person that you can't as easily create an identity for the Rosharans in their collective unconscious, if that makes sense? That they're just so-- and they're so ubiquitous that it didn't end up working the right way. That doesn't mean that they don't exist, but it's just not the same sort of ubiquity of some of the other ones. And I treat spren like races. Of animals. It's like saying "Well why didn't an animal grow that looks like a cat but has floppy ears?" or something like that. Well it just didn't happen, right? The organic nature of it-- There's no reason it couldn't have happened, and maybe you say "That's a fox, Brandon" but there's certain creatures that could have grown in our world that didn't and it's kind of a mixture between those two things. I kind of had to decide I didn't want a spren for everything for those reasons. And I wanted some spren to be really, really rare. And so you might see like a lovespren, but it doesn't pop out for puppy love, does that make sense? Or you might feel it, but there are none of those in the Cognitive Realm nearby, so they just don't show up.

[Beatsmorn]

Shallan was "talking" to Cognitive aspect of stick. I recommend you read Emperor's Soul if you haven't already - it's my favorite Sanderson' book and it explains this stuff better than me. 

Spren are Investiture given shape by human conscience and perception. They are drawn to certain ideas, they represent certain ideas but it's not like some kind of Stickspren exist - Shallan was talking to Stick' mind, and everything has a mind in Cosmere, even noninvested and inanimate things. 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Ymawgat said:

What is you evidence for this?

Snapping is a Cosmere constant. We know that Awakening is an exception to this, but not the reason why. 

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

Quote

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are considered one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Questioner 2

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath.

Rhandric

That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique...

Brandon Sanderson

Not all of them because, um, let's see...

Questioner 3

BioChroma doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

BioChroma does not requires snapping.

Rhandric

Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

And while looking for those ones, I stumbled on this one

Quote

Faera

So in Mistborn, you have to be 'snapped' to awaken allomantic abilities. Similarly in Stormlight, you have to be 'broken' to release surgebinding powers.

Are there any connections between these two requirements? Does it have anything to do with the 3 realms?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and yes.

As to Adolin, I'm probably repeating things said earlier in the thread, but lifts oaths git him remarkably well in my opinion. He listens to everyone regardless of rank. The murder of Sadeas was directly tied to his remembrance of the men lost at the Tower.

For soulcasting... For one thing, the word soul is used interchangeably by Brandon for the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects, and it really annoys me. Hemalurgy targets the soul, and rips off chunks of the Spirit Web. But  a "Cognitive Shadow" is created when investiture has suffused the "soul" and keeps it from being pulled to the Beyond... And it is the cognitive aspect that goes beyond. Both the Physical and Spiritual aspects leave corpses behind. So in short the word soul is unfortunately not very determinate.

Every use of soulcasting we've seen has enacted a physical change by targeting the Cognitive aspect. By necessity it must change the Spiritual as well, but that's not where it is targeted. 

Regardless, it's a mute point, because neither Adolin or Maya have access to the surge of Transformation, so I don't see how it could be applied in any case. 

[Ymawgat]

1 minute ago, Beatsmorn said:

Shallan was "talking" to Cognitive aspect of stick. I recommend you read Emperor's Soul if you haven't already - it's my favorite Sanderson' book and it explains this stuff better than me. 

Spren are Investiture given shape by human conscience and perception. They are drawn to certain ideas, they represent certain ideas but it's not like some kind of Stickspren exist - Shallan was talking to Stick' mind, and everything has a mind in Cosmere, even noninvested and inanimate things.

I'ver read the Emperor's soul, but isn't it evidence for my argument and not yours?

Spoiler

According to the coppermind Shai refers to objects as having souls?

I'm not aware of any evidence to support the rest of the stuff you said. Jasnah only makes reference to using investiture to bribe an object into changing.

[Beatsmorn]

14 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Snapping is a Cosmere constant. We know that Awakening is an exception to this, but not the reason why. 

And while looking for those ones, I stumbled on this one

As to Adolin, I'm probably repeating things said earlier in the thread, but lifts oaths git him remarkably well in my opinion. He listens to everyone regardless of rank. The murder of Sadeas was directly tied to his remembrance of the men lost at the Tower.

For soulcasting... For one thing, the word soul is used interchangeably by Brandon for the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects, and it really annoys me. Hemalurgy targets the soul, and rips off chunks of the Spirit Web. But  a "Cognitive Shadow" is created when investiture has suffused the "soul" and keeps it from being pulled to the Beyond... And it is the cognitive aspect that goes beyond. Both the Physical and Spiritual aspects leave corpses behind. So in short the word soul is unfortunately not very determinate.

Every use of soulcasting we've seen has enacted a physical change by targeting the Cognitive aspect. By necessity it must change the Spiritual as well, but that's not where it is targeted. 

Regardless, it's a mute point, because neither Adolin or Maya have access to the surge of Transformation, so I don't see how it could be applied in any case. 

But it's no longer about Adolin, it's now about who is RIGHT! Contest, rivalisation! ODIUM!

Seriously though, I agree with everything you said. I won't answer to next quotes, as it is pretty pointless now.

 

[Ymawgat]

11 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Snapping is a Cosmere constant. We know that Awakening is an exception to this, but not the reason why.

Sure, but like, it clearly doesn't work exactly the same for every shardworld, and I'm arguing that on Roshar you need a specific kind of crack in the soul a specific order (or near enough, in the case of Teft, Lopen, and Ym if he was an Edgedancer).

13 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The murder of Sadeas was directly tied to his remembrance of the men lost at the Tower.

This is a much better argument, and I guess is a point against my theory.

15 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

For soulcasting... For one thing, the word soul is used interchangeably by Brandon for the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects, and it really annoys me. Hemalurgy targets the soul, and rips off chunks of the Spirit Web. But  a "Cognitive Shadow" is created when investiture has suffused the "soul" and keeps it from being pulled to the Beyond... And it is the cognitive aspect that goes beyond. Both the Physical and Spiritual aspects leave corpses behind. So in short the word soul is unfortunately not very determinate.

Every use of soulcasting we've seen has enacted a physical change by targeting the Cognitive aspect. By necessity it must change the Spiritual as well, but that's not where it is targeted. 

Yeah I definitely agree it's a mired subject. I still think some kind of partial transformation is possible though, especially with the stuff we know about forgery from the Emperor's soul.

23 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Regardless, it's a mute point, because neither Adolin or Maya have access to the surge of Transformation, so I don't see how it could be applied in any case.

So what are Jasnah, Shallan, and Ash then? Why can't they soulcast or change Maya?

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

So what are Jasnah, Shallan, and Ash then? Why can't they soulcast or change Maya?

Ash doesn't have her Honorblade, it's with the Shin, and considering how they you need to know what your making to do it unless it's one of the essences, I doubt any of them have the required knowledge to create a Nahel Spren. 

The sheer amount of investiture needed would be fairly prohibitive as well. 

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Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Add in that the metal that spren become as a blade is essentially a godmetal and you'll probably run into some other issues. 

Quote

ninch

Could a person Soulcast more atium and lerasium if they had a bead?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Investiture messes things like that up.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how it would be possible. 

[Ymawgat]

10 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Quote

Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Add in that the metal that spren become as a blade is essentially a godmetal and you'll probably run into some other issues. 

Ok fair point. Theory cancelled I guess.

(Adolin will always be a Stoneward in my heart.)