helaran

[Oudeis]

Why would helaran, with plate and blade, care enough to fight in a random border skirmish? Whoever sent him must've wanted to guarantee his side would win. What is the fallout from the monkey wrench thrown in this plan? If helaran is with the skybreakers, and if Nalan is in charge of them, wouldnt he suspect a radiant had killed his shardbearer? Why not come after that person?

If helaran is a skybreaker, he was targetting amaram. Is it possible they suspected he really is a radiant? Did he know his own sister was a radiant?

[Edgedancer]

Personally, I doubt that the Skybreakers would care about a border skirmish and he didn´t show any interest in killing Kaladin until he involved himself, so he was probably after Amaram. Which isn´t far fetched given that he is part of a secret organisation that wants to return the Voidbringers. Something Nalan definetly wouldn´t be fond of.

Unless of course he worked on the very convoluted strategy that the proto-Radiant in Amaram´s army was a Windrunner and as such would definetly come to protect his superior.

 

Granted, I have no clue why there wasn´t a follow up by Nalan. Maybe Helaran was acting on his own, whatever justification Nalan had for killing Amaram passed or he was distracted with hunting down Radiants proper.

 

Helaran probably didn´t know that Shalan was a Radiant, in the flashbacks it seemed as if he thought that his father murdered his mother and if he knew Shallan was a Radiant than he could probably make the connection.

 

You may notice that most of this is guess work.

[king of nowhere]

the simplest explanation is that the ghostbloods and the sons of honor are rivals, so helaran was there to kill amaram.

I doubt they knew about kaladin. he hadn't done anything radiant-ish yet, and the ghostbloods are well informed, but by no mean omniscient. there is also no sign that helaran was involved with nalan. unless i missed something  about a nalan-ghostbloods partnership.

[Oudeis]

The connection is that someone mentions at one point that shallans brother sought the skybreakers. We know her father was connected to the ghostbloods. Do we know helaran was, too?

If they wanted amaram dead, why do 8 more months pass without a second attempt? A poisoning or a prostitute with a knife?

Good catch about how he thinks the dad killed the mom.

Im not actually certain they couldnt have known there was a surgebinder. Syl is flying around adhering things, and when Kaladin fights with unnatural skill the wind visibly warps around him, per chapter 1 of the Way of Kings. Its at least almost as much as how Ym got on his radar.

 

EDIT: One month to the day later, I notice a typo.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Outis

[Edgedancer]

The only hint we have to (or against to be specific) a conection with the Ghostblood would come from the same conversation. Namely, that only the broken Soulcaster was listed under the family debts not the Set of Shards, which Helaran clearly got sponsored by a secret organization.

 

That´s what confuses me as well. Maybe possesing a set of Shards changed his danger level, i.e. "he has dead Shards so he can´t be a Radiant."

[Oudeis]

Ooooooooh... you make a number of excellent points.

 

While this is all interesting speculation, I still wonder if there's something bigger we just can't see yet. I'm gonna re-read the bits that mention this attack and see if there's any suggestion of Helaran's intentions during the scene. He's clearly operating on the side of one of the Lords, yes? He first runs around killing some soldiers (Kaladin's specifically included) and then targets Amaram when... doesn't Amaram run out onto the field at one point, as is his habit? I really need to re-read that section.

 

I wonder if perhaps we'll learn at some point that there's something unknown but important about that spit of land which will be crucial for something. This smacks of the Diagram to me, though, and we're already involving a great many secret societies. It will amuse me beyond measure if it turns out that LITERALLY EVERY secret society had a hand in this specific, supposedly minor border skirmish and that thanks to the coincidental involvement of an uninformed Radiant who hadn't even spoken the first Ideal yet, absolutely none of them got what they wanted.

[king of nowhere]

I remembered that helaran had the ghostbloods symbol tattoed on him, but I can't produce a reference, so maybe I'm wrong. In which case, him being involved with a different society than his father makes lot of sense.

[maxal]

I have always felt Helaran was after Amaram's specifically. He smashed through Kal's squad to get to him. Amaram is a Son of Honor, Helaran was sponsored with the false Skybreakers: it could be he had orders to remove him. It could also be Nalan found some crime hidden in Amaram's past to justify its execution. It wouldn't be surprising considering the kind of person Amaram is...

[+Harrycrapper]

Helaran is definitly aligned with the Sky Breakers. Shallan/Helaran's dad was aligned with the Ghostbloods as he somehow got a soul caster from them. Amaram is aligned with the Sons of Honor as he wishes to return the voidbringers which the Sky Breakers headed by Nalan clearly do not want and the ghostbloods in WoR are trying to spy on him so clearly he isn't with them. Either there's ANOTHER secret society that Helaran belongs too which after the Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, and Sons of Honor seems like there would be too many for there to be any more than those.

[missionaryofgod]

Helaran is definitly aligned with the Sky Breakers. Shallan/Helaran's dad was aligned with the Ghostbloods as he somehow got a soul caster from them. Amaram is aligned with the Sons of Honor as he wishes to return the voidbringers which the Sky Breakers headed by Nalan clearly do not want and the ghostbloods in WoR are trying to spy on him so clearly he isn't with them. Either there's ANOTHER secret society that Helaran belongs too which after the Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, and Sons of Honor seems like there would be too many for there to be any more than those.

The more the merrier

[Quiver]

Don't have WoR in front of me, and I admit, being a Sky reader makes the most sense, buuuut...

Was it ever confirmed that he did join them? I remember it being said that he sought them out, but I don't remember anything saying he found or was accepted by them.

Heck, I don't even think there's a line that reveals why he was looking for the Skybreakers. Given his mother -seemed- to be associated with them, leading to her trying to execute Shallan, is it possible he went to find them as part of a search for vengeance? Maybe he sought them out to join them, or destroy them, or...something I'm not clever enough to think of.

[Oudeis]

Either there's ANOTHER secret society that Helaran belongs too which after the Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, and Sons of Honor seems like there would be too many for there to be any more than those.

I will try to find the quote but at a signing i went to someone asked how many secret societies there were and the answer was something huge and crazy like 10. Though i think he said the newly reformed Radiants were one.

[kaellok]

Why would helaran, with plate and blade, care enough to fight in a random border skirmish? Whoever sent him must've wanted to guarantee his side would win. What is the fallout from the monkey wrench thrown in this plan? If helaran is with the skybreakers, and if Nalan is in charge of them, wouldnt he suspect a radiant had killed his shardbearer? Why not come after that person?

If helaran is a skybreaker, he was targetting amaram. Is it possible they suspected he really is a radiant? Did he know his own sister was a radiant?

The question regarding the fallout from Heleran being killed by Kaladin in a random border dispute is actually incredibly huge.  It's indirectly responsible for both Kaladin and Shallan.  Kaladin, because otherwise he never would have been made a bridgeman and found his way to Radianthood through that path (he likely would have anyway, but it would have been different).  This also means that there would not have been any Kholin survivors from the Sadeas betrayal, so Dalinar and Adolin would be dead.  Mr T would not regretfully send Szeth against Dalinar, because Dalinar is dead.

 

WoR spoilers, because even though it's been longer than 6 months it may still matter due to which forum this is

There's also a good chance that Sadeas would be alive.  Which also means that Szeth may not have been defeated by Kaladin and given Nightblood by Nalan; unsure on what that will entail, but is a rather huge change; if for no other reason than Szeth will still, stupidly, feel bound to Mr T by his Oathstone. 

 

Shallan's story would also have been different.  Her father got much more abusive after Heleran's death.  If nothing else, he likely would have lived longer, which means that Shallan would have stayed home longer, which means that she would have been caught in the Jah Keved civil war caused by Mr T.  What that would have changed is really up to guesswork, but she would likely have died, become a Radiant and lived, or become a Radiant and died. 

 

There would have also been no warning about the incoming Everstorm at all.  The little warning given is not likely to do much, but will have done more than nothing.  The vast majority of the Parshendi were also destroyed by Dalinar's army, so there won't be a large core group of Voidbringers that are already practiced in how to best use their forms and powers (again, likely to be small difference, but small differences can lead to huge changes/results).  There also would be no resistance group at Urithuru, at least as early as there currently is.

 

So, I guess really, without Heleran being killed by Kaladin, Odium probably wins.

Edited October 13, 2014 by kaellok

[Savanorn]

The question regarding the fallout from Heleran being killed by Kaladin in a random border dispute is actually incredibly huge.  It's indirectly responsible for both Kaladin and Shallan.  Kaladin, because otherwise he never would have been made a bridgeman and found his way to Radianthood through that path (he likely would have anyway, but it would have been different).  This also means that there would not have been any Kholin survivors from the Sadeas betrayal, so Dalinar and Adolin would be dead.  Mr T would not regretfully send Szeth against Dalinar, because Dalinar is dead.

 

WoR spoilers, because even though it's been longer than 6 months it may still matter due to which forum this is

There's also a good chance that Sadeas would be alive.  Which also means that Szeth may not have been defeated by Kaladin and given Nightblood by Nalan; unsure on what that will entail, but is a rather huge change; if for no other reason than Szeth will still, stupidly, feel bound to Mr T by his Oathstone. 

 

Shallan's story would also have been different.  Her father got much more abusive after Heleran's death.  If nothing else, he likely would have lived longer, which means that Shallan would have stayed home longer, which means that she would have been caught in the Jah Keved civil war caused by Mr T.  What that would have changed is really up to guesswork, but she would likely have died, become a Radiant and lived, or become a Radiant and died. 

 

There would have also been no warning about the incoming Everstorm at all.  The little warning given is not likely to do much, but will have done more than nothing.  The vast majority of the Parshendi were also destroyed by Dalinar's army, so there won't be a large core group of Voidbringers that are already practiced in how to best use their forms and powers (again, likely to be small difference, but small differences can lead to huge changes/results).  There also would be no resistance group at Urithuru, at least as early as there currently is.

 

So, I guess really, without Heleran being killed by Kaladin, Odium probably wins.

 

 

Unless....

 

Kaladin distinguishes himself regardless of Shardbearers and is sent to the Shattered plains earlier rather than later, he idolizes Amaram and hears of his close friend Dalinar and grows to admire him from afar whilst gaining a deeper understanding of the Parshendi, Sadeas and the war. In a wartime environment his connection to his squad (and kater body of troops, maybe) and his desire to protect them lead to his Nahel bond forming years earlier and by the time of 'current' WoK he's already a radiant of some order, half as bitter and distrustful of lighteyes, and both a legend of the warcamps and Sadeas' army. Instead of being spit on as the lowest of the low, he inspires the whole of Sadeas' troops to do better,  and come Sadeas' betrayal he not only ralllies his men, but a large chunk of Sadeas men, killing the traitor Highprince and as a result Dalinar is rescued with less losses and essentially unopposed for most of WoR.

 

I don't think Shallan's plotline changes much, if at all, as I'm pretty sure her history shows that Helaran didn't do much to protect her or her family in the long run so everything she does remains solid. 

 

The only big issue I have is that maybe this means Amaram goes undetected as the rat he is.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, the chain of events could go any way, but I don't think it's so straightforward and things could go better. 

[Oudeis]

... lead to his Nahel bond forming years earlier and by the time of 'current' WoK he's already a radiant of some order...

 

... Kaladin was already bonding to Syl, at the very least as early as the border conflict we're discussing (when he fights to defend Cenn, Cenn notices that as he's fighting, the wind seems to warp and become visible around him, and in the flashback to just before said battle, Syl is zipping around, Adhering his pouch of spheres to his hand) and possibly far, FAR earlier (when he was a young child, and held a staff for the first time, he exhibited atypical skill with it, which might be an indication of the beginnings of his bond). Also, Kaladin arrived at the Shattered Plains only eight or nine months after this battle, and was inhaling Stormlight within a few more months of that, so there wasn't time for him to become a Radiant years earlier.

 

Even if you mean "Spoke the Third Ideal" Radiant or "Admits what he is publicly" Radiant, I'm not sure that the end of Words of Radiance is more than a year or two after the events of 'that battle'.

[king of nowhere]

another possible outcome would have been that

kaladin never reached the shattered plains, dalinar would die at the tower, with him gone eshonai never felt pressed enough that she committed to the new direction, the everstorm never came.

[Oudeis]

Also, someone raised a good point. I was only thinking of this in terms of the perspective from the first book, but it really does belong in the Words of Radiance section. Would a mod please correct my error and move this thread? I would hate to be the cause of spoilers. Thank you, and I will try to be more careful!

 

I cannot find the quote about the Secret Societies. I am forced to admit my recollection might be faulty. Perhaps someone else recalls something pertinent?

[Newan]

Secret Societies: 

 

1) New Radiants

2) Ghostbloods

3) The Diagram

4) Skybreakers

5) Sons of Honor

6) Worldsingers

7) Veristitalians

8) Stone Shamans

9) 17th Shard

10) Envisagers

11) Heralds

12) Oldbloods

 

Yeah, I know this is kind of a stretch.  The 17th Shard isn't strictly Rosharan, Oldbloods are more of an ethnicity, the Heralds are too few to be a society, the Envisagers are probably obsolete, and the Stone Shamans aren't exactly secret.  But hey, it's close enough.

[Savanorn]

... Kaladin was already bonding to Syl, at the very least as early as the border conflict we're discussing (when he fights to defend Cenn, Cenn notices that as he's fighting, the wind seems to warp and become visible around him, and in the flashback to just before said battle, Syl is zipping around, Adhering his pouch of spheres to his hand) and possibly far, FAR earlier (when he was a young child, and held a staff for the first time, he exhibited atypical skill with it, which might be an indication of the beginnings of his bond). Also, Kaladin arrived at the Shattered Plains only eight or nine months after this battle, and was inhaling Stormlight within a few more months of that, so there wasn't time for him to become a Radiant years earlier.

 

Even if you mean "Spoke the Third Ideal" Radiant or "Admits what he is publicly" Radiant, I'm not sure that the end of Words of Radiance is more than a year or two after the events of 'that battle'.

 

I'm already aware of that (it was raised in the darkness thread, and the fighting skills if you need confirmation) 

 

Of 'some order' referred to his progression rather than specific order.  

 

By 'years' I really just meant 'earlier', I admit to hyperbole in the matter.

 

The point was merely to demonstrate than playing the 'what if' game is a pretty blank slate argument, there's not much in the way of limits you put on yourself in terms of what could have happened 'if x'   

[Oudeis]

Of 'some order' referred to his progression rather than specific order.

 

Ooooh... sorry, did not get that.

 

Can it be assumed that his horse was a Rhyshadium? Could it have carried a full Shardbearer otherwise?

[king of nowhere]

 

Ooooh... sorry, did not get that.

 

Can it be assumed that his horse was a Rhyshadium? Could it have carried a full Shardbearer otherwise?

sadeas used horses while wearing plate, so the assumption is at least unnecessary.

[Oudeis]

This thought occurred to me while I was away from my computer. Good catch!

[maxal]

sadeas used horses while wearing plate, so the assumption is at least unnecessary.

 

So did Elhokar...

[Patrick Star]

Yeah, normal horses can carry shardbearers.  Just not as quickly, nimbly, or for as long as Rhyshadium.

[Oudeis]

So. The border skirmish. Where was it? Which border? Was it between two Brightlords in Sadeas's fiefdom? Was Amaram defending the borders of the Fiefdom itself from attack by the Brightlord of a rival Highprince? Here's what little we know.
 
One side was Amaram's army.
 
The other side was also Alethi.
 
The field was "bare, flat slickrock, remarkably even and smooth".
 
The other side: "A landlord was encroaching on Brightlord Amaram's territory- the land owned, ultimately, by Highprince Sadeas. It was a border skirmish, and Cenn thought it was with another Alethi princeom." So, this implies Amaram is the defender. Is that simple propaganda this young recruit (Cenn, chapter 1) believes? Did Amaram actually take this land, and the other army is trying to take it back? Also note that this implies that (Cenn at least believes) it's at the border with another Highprince. Can we trust his word? On the one hand, he's a 15-year-old simple country bumpkin. On the other hand, he mentions being a herder, and thinks about how the land would make a good harvest. Would a local know the land, know the border, be a good source at to where Sadeas's fiefdom ends? Or is this a young kid who'd see Hearthstone and think it was Kharbranth, the way he thought a man in simple plate was a Shardbearer?
 
"It was difficult to tell friend from foe, despite the emblems on breastplates and colored paint on shields." I think it's a slam-dunk at this point that it was at least between Alethi, not across the border to another Kingdom.
 
Hrm. "A group of soldiers nearby wore Alethi uniforms. Kaladin's squad. Cenn ran for them, but when some turned toward him, Cenn was terrified to realize he didn't recognize them. This wasn't Kaladin's squad, but a small group of unfamiliar solderis holding an uneven, borken line." Maybe not quite a slam-dunk, then. If he sees an Alethi uniform and thinks Kaladin's squad... but against the weight of the other evidence, I think this just has to be a somewhat awkward way of saying that he recognized Amaram's colors, especially in light of the comment about everyone, friend or foe, looking the same except for colors.
 
"That's one of Hallaw's officers" on the other side, per Kaladin. Who? EDIT: According to my search function, the name Hallaw does not appear in Words of Radiance.
 
From Ch. 47, Kaladin's flashback to the same battle.
 
"Kaladin turned, looking eastward. Toward a home to which he could never return." !!!! An actual direction. I'm lightheaded with giddiness.
 
Ah. "Their enemy - a lighteyes named Hallaw - was fond of long volleys." So... that tells us little. These are the only instances I can find where this name is referenced, yet he seems to have some importance. I'll search Words of Radiance in a minute.
 
Ah-ha! "Lesser landlords who sought to slice off bits of Highprince Sadeas's lands." Further evidence that it is across the border to another Highprince's lands.
 
"Occasionally, Amaram's armies would try to seize territory from other Highprinces - lands Amaram claimed really belonged to Sadeas and had been stolen years before." Further evidence that Hallaw is the aggressor in this conflict, since Kaladin knows that Amaram does try to take lands sometimes, but seems to imply it's rare, and not what's happening now. Not proof, I admit, but one more pebble for the cairn.
 
"...and Kaladin could see the enemy lining up on the shallow ridge across the field to the west." Doesn't technically mean much, since armies can manuever based on local terrain... just because this army is, at the moment, a few hundred yards west doesn't tell us much about the national border they are crossing. Adding for completeness.
 
AH-HA! "The enemy. That was what they were called. Yet whenever there was an actaul border dispute with the Vedens or the Reshi, those men would line up beside Amaram's troops and they would fight together." I'm re-instating my slam dunk, this is definitely a dispute between two Alethi armies. I'm still only mostly confident that this is across a fiefdom border, rather than between two Brightlords in Sadeas's fiefdom.
 
"Kaladin caught sight of a flash of green in the middle of the enemy brown." Bad guy's color is predominantly brown. Noted.
 
"Amaram's forces were recovering; they'd win the day before long. In fact, Amaram would probably be leading a direct surge against the enemy by now. He generally entered the battle at the end." Submitted due to the theory that this whole thing may have been to draw Amaram out to the battlefield, in case just killing that one man was the goal all along.
 
The Shardbearer is going through Amaram's line, killing soldiers as he passes. Kaladin has a reputation and a nickname, and wears trousers under his skirt for the express purpose of being recognized by his men. If he'd been the target, it could not possibly have been difficult for literally anyone to learn enough about him to target him, personally, on the battlefield. I see this as evidence against the idea that Helaran was trying to kill Kaladin, and attacked Amaram to draw him out.
 
From the map of Alethkar.
 

 
Please keep in mind that this is NOT oriented directly north to south. See below for directional reference.
 

 
To speculate a bit here, if it is across a fiefdom border, against a Brightlord from another Highprince's lands, the only place this fits where Hearthstone would be "east" would be along the border with Vamah.
 
From chapter 12, Unity, Vamah himself is not a Shardbearer. Just throwing it out there.
 
And... this is a lot of typing. And my boss is starting to wonder why I'm not doing any actual work today. So ... enjoy! Discuss.

 

EDIT: Addition. Vamah gets mentioned a few more times. He's one of the more obvious people trying to circumvent the authority of the king. He's behind on his taxes, and he tries to find ways not to have to hire the King's Soulcasters. Not sure what this means, or if there's even any reason to guess that Vamah has any connection to Helaran.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Outis