TheoreticalMagic Posted January 11, 2023 Posted January 11, 2023 Hello all! Not to be like hey buckle up for another theoretical jaunt down Here's One Random User's Guesses About the Dawnshards lane....but I mean. Yeah. Buckle up for another theoretical jaunt down "Here's One Random User's Guesses About the Dawnshards" Lane. So I wonder if perhaps the four Dawnshards are simply the magical equivalents of the Unified Field Theory, aka the four fundamental forces of physics. After all, the four fundamental forces or interactions are often described as being the forces in physics that are impossible to reduce any further, to interactions any more incremental than these 'fundamental' ones themselves. That sounds to me an awful lot like the real world equivalent of the four Primal Commands that created the fundamental framework of the cosmere. Commands so fundamental they can't be reduced any further, whereas the sixteen Shards that 'descend' from these parent Dawnshards CAN be described as a more complex interaction deriving from one of these base four....that they build upon, and thus in turn can point back to as being a foundational Command at the root of their own nature. And after all, gravity is essentially the Surge of Adhesion, which has frequently been singled out as not being a proper Surge like the other nine, as well as aligning well with the Dawnshard we know of that 'binds any creature Voidish or mortal.' As such, perhaps Adhesion is not so much a Surge as it is a Shard-made facsimile of one of the fundamental forces of creation, the Dawnshard that is essentially Gravity or some version of Bind Them. Basically a watered down version of one quarter of the Creation Drive, as it was created by a Shard or Shards rather than being created by or concurrent with Ado/Adonalsium (whatever the precise relationship between Ado and the Dawnshards might be). And keep in mind that Gravity refers to a state of mind or being as much as it does a physical force, so rather than Adhesion, Binding, or Unity....a Dawnshard of Gravity could theoretically also have a name along the lines of Weight, or be akin to how Gravitas is synonymous with especially serious. Essentially, the Dawnshard of Gravity could be something that imbues creation with the physical, cognitive and spiritual equivalent of mass....of Purpose.....even of....Intent. As to the one Dawnshard we DO know: Change.... I'd argue that theoretically, this could be the corollary to Electromagnetism. Especially given all the theorizing that the Change Dawnshard is specifically about creating POSITIVE change. Much like electromagnetism's role in physics stems largely from the positive charging of particles, and how this instigates, well...change. The magical equivalent of imbuing a positive charge into creation could well be summed up as Change (Positive) - as charging particles, or the various interactions between positively and negatively charged particles, is what leads to most change in the universe. The charged state of particles is directly linked to the changing states of matter, the conversion and breakdown of elements, etc. When you charge a particle, when you imbue it with a spark of creation, so to speak....something happens as a direct result, always, without fail. You induce change. So if two of the Dawnshards are Gravity and Electromagnetism, just interpreted via a fantasy lens..... They might be called Weigh and Change. Weigh as in something you might Command.....as in weigh upon. As in have mass, have weight, have MEANING. Another way of saying 'have meaning' is to command something to MATTER. Although the commands act as verbs, they might be more easily pictured when combined with a modifier, just as a hypothetical (and with the understanding that this doesn't quite match the naming convention implied for the Dawnshards and its just a rephrasing/reframing of the Command for ease of defining/picturing). So Weigh/Gravity/Bind could be the magical command largely responsible for or resulting in matter in the cosmere. Honor of course would be the most obvious candidate for one of the four Shards attached to or stemming from this particular Dawnshard....which tracks with the idea that he created the Surge of Adhesion to mimic the power that essentially is his own parent power. And as such, bindings and oaths are the basic bedrock foundation for life on Roshar. They're as fundamental to the framework of post-humanity Roshar as crem. If there's a Dawnshard that Commands 'Imbue weight/mass/purpose/MATTER' into the basic framework of existence......then Honor would fit as one of the four Shards under that subheading. Because Honor only has as much meaning as how much your personal honor matters, how much you adhere to whatever oaths you swear by. If you don't imbue your actions, your deeds, everything you create by Intent....with actual weight, with actual gravity, with Honor that you hold yourself to, that you see as having meaning and in turn use to give your actions and words and oaths meaning..... Then none of that really matters. Honor only matters in as much as the individual cognitive being who conducts themselves with Honor, by Intent....MAKES it matter. Now switch gears over to Change......if the Dawnshard of Change is the magical equivalent of electromagnetism in a fantasy universe.....then it could perhaps more easily be pictured by reframing that Command as 'Induce change.' A Shard I imagine falls under the Change subheading, one of the four 'child' Shards of that parent Dawnshard....would be Endowment. Because Endowment is something you give....but with purpose, with Intent. You give it specifically with the aim of something being done WITH that endowment, something positive. A positive change resulting from a gift given. The fantasy equivalent of bequeathing a positive charge to a particle....in order to....Induce Change. To result in something being done with that endowment, that results in a change (a positive one) for the one the endowment was given to. Similarly, Cultivation would fit in this category IMO....because it results in a positive change as a consequence of something being added, some structure being implemented, some being - with Intent - providing nourishment or nurturing something in order to see it evolve, grow, become better, more civilized, etc. A child Shard of the parent Dawnshard that is Change might "Induce Change" by adding more sustenance or nourishment or making it more easily attainable, to see what positive changes result. And if the Command 'Imbue/Have Weight' is the Dawnshard that shapes matter in the cosmere, the Command 'Induce/Shape Change' might similarly be described as the Dawnshard that results in energy. Inducing positive charges that shape energetic changes. Anyway, in real world physics, gravitational and electromagnetic interactions are denoted as being those that produce significant long-term or long-range forces whose effects can be seen on every day life. Weigh and Change, Matter and Energy, the Primal Commands that shape the long-term or long-range events that ARE the story of the cosmere, the fundamental building blocks that move creation into new states of existence. Which leaves two Dawnshards, and two fundamental forces/interactions: The strong and weak nuclear forces. These two are pretty complicated forces in the sense that they're very easily misconstrued and thus often misunderstood or misrepresented. For starters, the naming of them positions them as seeming like natural opposites, but that's not really the case. There is an ANGLE from which they're opposites, but of the four fundamental forces, when people talk of one of the four forces being somewhat different in nature from the other three....its actually the weak nuclear force they're talking about. The strong nuclear force more naturally groups with gravitation and electromagnetism....weak nuclear force is the outlier, even if in many ways it DOES present itself as a logical paired interaction for the strong nuclear force. (Note: This also dovetails with how we know from a WoB that one of the Dawnshards is different from the other three in some key ways). Now the interesting thing about the strong nuclear force is that....although its often construed as being a binding force and thus could be confused or treated as interchangeable with the parent force from which Adhesion is derived....this is not wholly accurate.....at least not if that binding force is interpreted as an ACTIVE interaction. Because while gravitation and electromagnetism are forces that actively ACT on things....the binding denoted by the strong nuclear force isn't a similarly active participation, like those two other forces. Rather, the binding is more just....a description of the interaction that exists. What I mean by that is gravity and electromagnetism are forces that actively interact with things, moment by moment. They DO stuff. The strong nuclear force doesn't inherently have to DO anything, it doesn't have to actively INTERACT......it also just describes something that was already done, just by virtue of the way things exist. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the strong nuclear force above all else simply....is a way of explaining what we're looking at when we look at the fundamental bonds and framework between things even BEFORE electromagnetism and gravitation act UPON them. It says: here is potential that exists, potential for change, potential for matter. It doesn't have to DO anything TO exist....its us looking at stuff that exists and says okay, here is a thing that exists in this particular configuration, and here's why, here's what holds it all together....regardless of whether or not we saw it come together in the first place. In essence, the fantasy equivalent of this force, reinterpreted as a Primal Command that is one of four responsible for creation..... This Primal Command, the correlating equivalent of this interaction, could be described as simply: "Exist." In fact, this force is the lynchpin of this entire theory, because IMO here's the key thing about having FOUR different Primal Commands that are used together to create: If creation is either the end goal of these four Commands, imbued with Intent.....or if creation is simply the end result of these four Commands....either way.....if one of these four Commands in and of itself is "Create".....then why do you need the other three....for....creation? And if one of these four Commands is NOT "Create".....then no matter what the other three are "Change"/"Weigh"/"Bind"/"Divide"/"Unite".....any of the variations I've seen suggested, whichever way you look at it.....if none of the four Commands is Create.....then what are the other three Commands acting upon? What creation exists for them TO Change in the first place? Unless......there is no Dawnshard, no Command that just says "Create"....but there is still created stuff for the other three to act upon......because there IS a Dawnshard, a Command, that simply commands: "Exist." As if the magical or fantasy equivalent of the strong nuclear force is Ado or Adonalsium or some Prime Creator, commanding not that things BE creatED....but rather that things.....just already Exist. And thus another way of reframing or rephrasing this Primal Command for ease of picturing is just "Have Potential." With this being the Dawnshard that 'creates' space and all its boundless potential...by simply Commanding that all that potential just....inherently exist. And "Weigh" and "Change" (or Imbue Weight and Induce Change) are what act upon that Potential. The Matter and Energy that give it shape and purpose and definition....and then energetically change all of that into still more configurations. Thus the Shards that descend or derive from this parent Shard are the ones that denote innate potential that can be acted upon in a myriad of ways. For instance: Autonomy. All sentient beings exist with the innate potential to act autonomously, they have this capacity.....but whether or not they DO act autonomously is subject to whether that autonomy is allowed to matter, by the actions of others.....and with their ability to act on their own autonomy being subject to change, depending on the actions of others and forces acting upon them. Which brings us to the final Dawnshard, the one I think is the true outlier, not quite like the others......the one that corresponds with the weak nuclear force. Like the strong nuclear force, the weak one can be tricky to perfectly encapsulate, but the 'weak' part is a misnomer. Don't think of it in terms of lesser than the strong nuclear force in any way, because the usual kneejerk associations with strong and weak are utterly irrelevant to the NATURES of the strong and weak nuclear forces. And like I said earlier, there ARE still angles from which the weak nuclear force does pair naturally with the strong nuclear force, in ways that gravitation and electromagnetism don't. For instance, the weak nuclear force, unlike those other two, and similar to the strong nuclear force....isn't a force or interaction that inherently DOES anything. It doesn't require active participation or a specific catalyst. Rather, like the strong nuclear force, its perhaps better imagined or understood as just....a description of something that happens, regardless of what set that in motion or even whether something specific set it in motion at all. But at the same time, the thing that makes the weak nuclear force distinct from the three other fundamental forces is that its the only one of the four fundamental forces to break parity symmetry. This is....a whole thing that frankly I'm too exhausted by typing out this whole post to get into all of that now, but its not really necessary to understand it to understand the point I'm aiming at here. All you really have to get is that each of the other four forces: strong nuclear force, gravitation and electromagnetism....all have a relation to spatial coordinates that the weak nuclear force doesn't inherently have.....because while electromagnetism is a force that induces change, just like gravitation is a force that can create the kind of bond interactions that the strong nuclear force describes.....the weak nuclear force is what DESCRIBES the changes that take place once the potential described by the strong nuclear force IS acted upon. Another way to sum this up would be: the weak nuclear force is most relevant to describing what happens with radioactive decay. The gradual changes that take place among pre-existing bonds. And to bring this back to a fantasy equivalent......if the strong nuclear force correlates with 'Exist' or "Have Potential" and embodies the fundamental concept of space and its place in creation....the weak nuclear force embodies the fundamental concept of time. And this is how and why the weak nuclear force - and the Dawnshard it correlates to - would be distinct from the other three, the strong nuclear force (Exist), gravitation (Weigh) and Electromagnetism (Change). Because all of those things describe things that are, and how and why they change and what changes them. The weak nuclear force and its corresponding Dawnshard are simply the Creative Urge's awareness of all of that happening. The Prime Creator's desire to see that all of that happens. And if this urge or desire, this Prime Command were to have a specific name, I would imagine nothing more suitable than: "Move." Matter and Energy (Weigh and Change) are the substance and the events of the cosmere's story, everything that happens, why things change, why they matter, and Space (Exist) is the frame that encompasses it all, the stage upon which all of those events are set, with the edges of that stage existing as a frame and boundary that allows those events to be contained within something, for that existence to have a point of reference. Time (Move) is Prime Command that sets it all in motion, and thereby allows the story to take place. Without Time, without Momentum, without the prime urge to see all that has been created and the framework built to allow it to grow and change and matter.....actually DO all of that.....none of those other three Commands will ever result in anything. They'd pop into existence and then just....exist that way forever. The prime command that made things Exist, made them Have Potential would be irrelevant, because that infinite potential would never be acted upon. The prime command that set everything up to Change, to grow, to evolve, would never get to do its job. The prime command that imbues everything with weight, with import, that tells it all to have meaning, would never see any of that fulfilled. And thus, even though one of a set of four, even though intended to act in concert with the other three to ensure the fulfilment of the Creator's Created Vision.....Time "Make Things Go" is distinct from the other three. The other three Dawnshards conjured the framework of the machine that is the universe and installed the directives that would move that machine and all it creates. "Move" is the Dawnshard that acts as the start button that Ado pushed to make the machine turn on.....and stay on, continuing to advance the machine, the cosmere and all it contains....forever forward. And so just like "Exist" imagined a cosmere with innate potential, but doesn't require those things actively act in order to exist, but rather just exist regardless of all else, and that existence then shaped by energetic change and gravitated import....."Move" imagines change regardless of intent or active participation.....it just commands that things happen and continue to happen. So we end up with two Dawnshards that demand active engagement and intent, and two Dawnshards that are the reason things exist and change regardless of engagement and intent. Which brings me to my groupings: EXIST (Space) aka "Have potential" 1) Autonomy aka the innate capacity to self-govern, regardless of its actualization 2) Virtuosity aka the innate possession of knowledge or talent, regardless of whether that's ever realized or utilized MOVE (Time) aka "Things happen" 1) Ruin aka the inevitability of entropy, regardless of the how or why of it 2) Whimsy aka the randomness of change born of capriciousness, regardless of reason or intent WEIGH (Matter) aka "Imbue weight/import" 1) Honor aka the capacity to affect the potency of your words or actions via how much you actualize the honorable intent behind them 2) Devotion aka the capacity to affect the potency of your words or actions via how much you actualize the devotion that motivates them CHANGE (Energy) aka "Induce change" 1) Endowment aka the bequeathment of a gift to incite change 2) Cultivation aka the application of guidance or directive to enhance or encourage positive development 3) Invention aka the application of a spark of genius or ingenuity to change ideas or materials into something useful or desired I'm still undecided on where other things go, because Mercy could theoretically go under Exist or Weigh, depending on whether the cosmere rules consider Mercy to be an innate quality regardless of whether you act upon it or not, or whether the Mercy of your actions are relative to how much importance you attach to being merciful. I'm inclined to think Mercy goes under Exist, because whether the personal importance you place on whatever your personal view of mercy is doesn't necessarily equate to your actions actually being Merciful. Then again, Honor definitely goes under Weigh because adherence to one's vows or oaths is integral to the weight given to the magic these vows tap into......which suggests that in the cosmere there is no empirical standard to Honor, and rather the deciding factor in how much you're conducting yourself with Honor is relative to how much you commit to or abide by whatever code it is that you've sworn to, such as the Knights Radiant oaths. Personally, I think it could go either way and we won't know for sure until we see some indication of Mercy's magic system, because that - like with Honor - could give us a clue as to whether Mercy in the cosmere is considered an empirical standard, or whether your actions being considered merciful and thus granting access to Mercy's magic....depends on how well or not your actions are abiding by or aligning with a standard of mercy you've established as the baseline you measure mercy by. As a further example, I think (but I'm not one hundred percent sure) that Odium falls under Exist rather than Weigh, because what we've seen of Odium and the magic he's fueled suggests that unlike with Honor, there IS an empirical standard or baseline for Odium. After all, Rayse himself didn't abide by the same interpretation of his Intent that a lot of people fueled by his power considered to be "of Odium." He viewed himself as being Passion, and his magic didn't distinguish between whether or not all Voidbinders matched or aligned with an intentional desire to be of Odium, or act according to that nature. There was equal potential for his power and Investiture to be tapped by Dalinar, Singers, Moash......it simply built upon an innate capacity for hatred, with no regard for where that hatred was aimed or whether or not the person drawing upon Odium's Investiture happened to view themselves or their motivations as hatred, per se. Thus I posit Odium is derived from the parent Dawnshard "Exist" - tapping into or denoting some innate potential within people, regardless of whether they intentionally commit to it or use that intent to guide or shape their actions. Mercy, as well as Valor - could go either way, Weigh or Exist, alignment-relative or empirically innate. Similarly, Ambition could go either way, depending on whether there's an empirical standard for innate Ambition or if you have to align your actions with your own baseline for Ambition and commit to it, in order to tap Ambition-fueled Investiture. Which leaves me inclined to believe that Valor and Odium are the remaining two Exist Shards (Valor and Honor being under the same subheading just doesn't feel right to me, so I'm leaning towards Valor being empirically innate as opposed to Honor's relative alignment). Ambition and Mercy are the other two Intention/Potential Nature Shards, and thus if they're not Exist Shards, pursuant to the last two slots there being filled by Valor and Odium.....then I feel like Ambition and Mercy must be Weigh Shards, and thus their magic systems or Investiture channeling is reliant on a person aligning their actions with their own baseline for being/acting ambitious or merciful. Preservation is a tricky one but I think its ironically under the Move subheading, despite appearances. As I said earlier, I think a likely reframing or rephrasing of the Move Dawnshard is "Things Happen" and although preservation CAN denote a lack of change or stagnation.....that's not inherent in the word choice. Preservation is something that happens. If something is being preserved, regardless of the reason why - in pursuit of stagnation or in defense of life - you would describe that thing's state of being as 'it is being preserved' - which is a thing that happens. It has actual movement, even if that movement is in a consistent line for the time being described. And Preservation and Ruin being the only two paired Shards occupying the same subheading, would I think, actually make some sense and explain a lot for why those two Shards are natural opposites for each other in ways that no other Shards we've seen juxtaposed with each other are. They're opposites not because they hail from two different groupings, but because they're each other's inverse under the same subheading. Two opposite forms of things happening. "Something gets worse" and "Something is preserved" - those are paired opposites. Brandon's elsewhere said that if Ruin were to have a different opposite number....it might be Cultivation. This too makes sense because they both hail from different subheadings of "Things change" with Ruin being a description of 'regardless of why, things get worse as time passes' while its opposite number here is Cultivation as "make things better over time, with Intent." Again, a paired opposite for Ruin, but in an entirely different way that Ruin pairs opposite to Preservation. If there were to be another pair of Shards derived from the same parent Dawnshard, that act as paired opposites the way Ruin and Preservation do, I suspect one such example might be Odium and Virtuosity, as an example. Lastly of those we know is Dominion. While I'm not 100% on my reasoning for Odium and Valor being under Exist and Mercy and Ambition being under Weigh, I do feel confident enough in them to be inclined to assume Dominion is more likely to fall under one of the Things Happen or Induce Change subheadings. I'm leaning towards Things Happen, because Induce Change seems largely end-positive aimed, whereas Things Happen is inherently neutral, and while its feasible that Dominion could in some specific circumstances be hailed as a positive change, not in the sense of imposing authoritarian rule or tyranny but rather in the form of like....self-mastery, as in Induce Change in the form of learning or expertise so that one achieves Dominion over their field of study or intended pursuits.....I think its more likely that Dominion falls under "Move"/Things Happen in the sense that regardless of why, change often results as a followup to things coming under something else's purview or sway. If I'm right about this and Things Happen aka Move is the parent Dawnshard of Dominion, that would suggest that of the remaining two Shards, one falls under Move/Things Happen (Time) as well, and the other fills the last slot in Change/Induce Change (Energy). If Dominion IS actually derived from Change, then the remaining two Shards would move be Move/Things Happen (Time) Shards along with Ruin and Whimsy. But anyway. This is all theoretical for now. Guess we'll see one way or another, but in the meanwhile....thoughts? 10
Ashbringer he/him Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 I like this. Feels like there's a lot of basing to it, and Mercy being the asterisk in the theory makes a decent amount of sense, seeing as their involvement in Odium vs Ambition implies Mercy is taking an... unusual view of their Intent The thing I'm hesitant about is that Adhesion and Gravitation are distinct Surges in Surgebinding, as well as that the weak and strong atomic forces are also Surges (Cohesion and Tension, respectively). But it does feel more based on creation than a few of the other theories I've heard. (Disclaimer, I haven't heard a lot.) 1
Leuthie Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 This is the first set of possible Dawnshards I've seen that puts them in a place above the Shards. This is not just the set of things that Shards can do with Investiture, it's the limits imposed on the set of things that Shards can do with Investiture. To destroy Adonalsium, the tool would have to be able to impose on Adonalsium in some way. Making the Dawnshards into the LIMITS of what can be done, the very stuff that defines what is (EXIST), what can be (CHANGE), what the value is (WEIGH), and when all of that can be done (MOVE) is much closer to something that can destroy God than previous explanations. I disagree that the Shards should fit into individual categories based on Dawnshards, but that's a different set of arguments. 1
Brgst13 Posted January 13, 2023 Posted January 13, 2023 I love how closely this aligns with the Allomantic Metals alignment as well. EXIST is Internal/Pulling, Change is Internal/Pushing, WEIGH is External/Pulling, and MOVE is External/Pushing. This view opens up a LOT of new ground in theorizing about that Dawnshard mural!
IlstrawberrySeed Posted January 13, 2023 Posted January 13, 2023 The prpblem with that is then they don't interact with quadrants, but subquadrants.
Recommended Posts