straits

I think another big shift is that of class, in Alethi society particularly - which was in particular facilitated by the emergence of former darkeyed bridge slaves turned Windrunners, and the collaboration of their captain with Dalinar. The latter seems willing to upset the social order in Alethkar by awarding Kaladin with land of his own. I haven't looked into the books to find if darkeyes were allowed to own land, but if not, this is a major shift.

This has been reiterated in the thread multiple times. Adolin is feeding and enabling her personality split. This is exactly the wrong way to be "supportive". Kaladin definitely has less insight into Shallan's mental state. It likely has something to do with the fact that the two of them have spoken a grand total of three times after their encounter in the chasms. You said it yourself in this post; their only exchanges are banter - likely because they aren't speaking in private to begin with, since she spends that time with her betrothed. As an aside, the entire frame of debating this "triangle" is partially flawed ITT. There seems to be an assumption that if Adolin were to step aside, and Shallan were to "choose" Kaladin, the latter would throw his critical thinking out of the window and fly away with Shallan. This is an unfounded assumption.

Yeah, that's fine with me. I don't think your cause here is bad or that your reasoning is invalid; I just doubt the extent to which an author can be held responsible to other people's decisions.

I was paraphrasing what I read off the wiki references. They state that the frameworks defining dissociative disorders are vague, and that the treatment methodology is inconsistent. I'm not an expert on mental illness, so if you could link me to a study that outlines successful treatments to these disorders, I will retract what I said earlier and agree with you here. And Shallan's use of magic is harmful to her mental state, in a way not really predictable by a real world model. She can change her appearance and project the appearance of her other personalities in real time, in front of herself, which is more sophisticated than anything someone in real life can achieve. At some point she overlaid Shallan's face over Veil's face (over her own in turn), and projected an image of Shallan while standing elsewhere as Veil. This is a pretty convoluted mechanism of acting out multiple personalities. Interesting topic though, I'd like to learn more.

So? This is a real description of a possible outcome for someone who has this illness. The author doesn't have the responsibility to guide the character from the mental illness towards successful treatment. It could become worse - this could be grounds for Shallan sliding into further mental issues later on in the sequels. Your problem seems to be with the fact that someone reading this might conclude that she "solved" her issues because she's happy. This interpretation of events from the side of the reader is wrong, and the author is not obliged to spoon-feed the reader.

Good link, I didn't know about that variant of dissociative disorder. There might be a real danger if a reader has been brought up in a cult environment, proceeds to suffer from OSDD, and then concludes their escapism is good from reading a book. But I strongly disagree with policing the author just because "someone" might do "something" as a result of reading a book. However, there is nothing wrong with writing an essay, an article, or similar, about the book if you feel strongly about it, or encouraging boycotting in cases where you really feel it's harmful literature. I think the idea that Shallan's issues are "resolved" is a misinterpretation. She still thinks of Veil as a real personality, and Adolin feeds that. This isn't portrayed as a solution; it's clearly exacerbation of the problem despite the participants' feeling good about it. I think a deeper interpretation of the events Sanderson writes are the reader's burden to understand, and not the writer's burden to simplify.

This is probably a valid point for depression-related issues specifically, and one encounter with Wit does not constitute proper professional help in Shallan's case. But with regards to Dissociative Identity Disorder (her multiple personalities), this particular illness has been poorly defined, characterized and tackled in the real world. For most intents and purposes, Shallan's multiple personality flaws are a fictional mental disorder in the way that it is expressed. Not only is it hallucinogenic, she can also change her own appearance and literally summon images of her characters (as demonstrable by other characters' witnessing) using Stormlight. This is hard to meaningfully and genuinely link to any existing mental illness in real life. Consequently, I don't think Sanderson has the responsibility to tackle this from a medical, psychiatric perspective.

I don't think Shallan's mental state is anywhere near resolution. She's proceeded to feed at least one of her multiple personalities even into the marriage ceremony (IIRC there was a timeleap of a few months and she's still referring to Veil as a separate entity, in front of Adolin). This isn't a literary slip-up by Sanderson, it's suggestion of future conflict. I don't think it would be a writing misstep if there is no consequent payoff for Kaladin sometime in the future. Plenty of individuals in our world have not been "awarded" in such a way despite their good achievements/personality. And Kaladin's growth (and its process) is a reward in itself. Having said that, I'm not a fan of enforcing the Chekhov's Gun concept in every story. Not everything has to be satisfactorily "concluded"; life does not work that way. As for a main character being reduced to the "bad guy" role in the triangle - this is ostensibly not something Sanderson does in his description through all three PoVs. This is what Shallan does as a mental leap to make the decision easier.

I was being hyperbolic. He was in his early teens, and joined the army at 14. I don't recall him being "dark and broody" so much as being a child who spent a little more time thinking than his peers did. And his life prior to being enslaved and seeing his brother die doesn't count as "not being subjected to the societal norms". He was subjected to them, and he just interpreted it differently at the time. And his adult personality (his more upbeat internal monologue in the beginning of OB) is an indicator that he wants to gravitate towards being less "dark and broody" in spite of his circumstances. This is once again the difference between punching up and punching down. His "prejudice" towards her as a lighteyes is a defensive precaution against the elite class that subjugates darkeyes. A lighteyes' prejudice towards a darkeyes, however, is that individual's prerogative. They are negotiating from a position of power, and the rules of engagement are up to them. This is basic social theory.

Sure he was. He was also like 7 years old. I don't regard that a valid indicator of future personality. That aside, the same argument is valid for Shallan's trauma, of course. The difference is that Kaladin doesn't judge Shallan the way she does him. He's ultimately fine with her choices without resorting to some pretty negative implications about her person.

I understand that. Oddly, I think that Shallan kind of chose not to go into Kaladin's full characterization, so that she could make a split-second decision on a relationship without worrying about intricacies. As SLNC said, she reverts back to default behaviour because it's easier for her, and this is a regression which hurts her, and not anyone else. I agree in both cases. I don't like her lack of maturity, but it's understandable and IMO good writing by the author. However, there is one difference between the origin of their respective streams of consciousness. Shallan's current flaws are a bridge she will have to cross because in her society, she punches down, and someone of her intellect needs to realize that. Kaladin's reactions and resulting behaviours are more justified given consideration of their respective circumstances. This is probably out of scope of this discussion though, especially given how social norms are rapidly shifting with the reappearance of the KR and a global, unifying threat to sapient races of Roshar.

That's one example of the variation in his character. Circumstances make a personality, but in a world where he wasn't enslaved by supremacists, and did not have his friends/brother killed fighting someone else's war, he would probably not be "dark and brooding". It's evasive to make a judgement on his character based on his apparent traits, without considering why he is the way he is.

I think this is a reductionist misrepresentation of Kaladin's personality. He's someone whose attitudes towards the ongoing conflict and the classist society he's in, has been well-developed through the story. Both the "dark" and the "broody" traits are surface interpretations of his behaviour. And of course picking the rich, well-adjusted and good-looking elite as a life partner is the more logical thing to do, if only it were about logic. The biggest issue I personally had with the resolution of the triangle is the mental gymnastics it took Shallan to pick Adolin over Kaladin. It's not a criticism of Sanderson's writing, it's criticism of Shallan's personality. She could have gone with Adolin without referencing Veil's "terrible taste in men" and implying Kaladin was somehow bad. I don't think it parsed as pining for everyone. I don't think Kaladin would have accepted Shallan's advances even if she had a last-second change of heart. He's naturally suspicious of people without their changes in behaviour. It is not harsh and unfair to call out classism and bullying. She does need help with her own personal development, but it doesn't give her licence to hurt and belittle others.

Another poster here mentioned that it was likely not a matter of "we could destroy the world" and closer to "we are actively destroying the world, and mass disarmament is the quickest way to stop the process". I agree with RShara's point. Many of the spren were likely willing to self-sacrifice if their morality aligned with that of their Radiants. The Recreance was the final step of a long deliberation between spren and the knights. What confuses me somewhat is the fact that they disarmed in front of human armies/civilians. They could have disarmed elsewhere, announced their departure separately, and stashed these Roshar equivalents of melee nukes away from humans that will murder each other just to obtain greater capacity to murder each other. Instead they presented them the Shards on an open ground that was about to become a battlefield. I wouldn't want to conclude that the KR were nihilistic to the point of not caring about the consequences of leaving the Shards in the hands of others, even as they were disarming in order to prevent destruction of a world. I think Sanderson will provide more context in the long run.

That makes sense. Their passive support and encouragement of Shallan's actions (which mostly aligned with the agenda of Radiants under Dalinar) have so far led to activation of more Oathgates, and more incursions in Shadesmar, ultimately leading up to Dalinar bringing the three Realms closer. I'm not familiar with the mechanics of Worldhopping, but Shallan and her allies facilitated it.

That's really impressive if you've only been drawing for a year. I've got several good anatomy book titles and online tutorial suggestions if you are interested. The Stormlight Chronicles Archive is a really good source of inspiration, you'll have fun practicing

I think OB is the type of book that needs a few more readings to sink in properly, especially with regards to character development. There are lots of internal monologues that progress the story through the people - especially with Kaladin, who, despite his relative inactivity (he still got the spotlight, just less than in previous books) keeps growing through his failures and breakdowns. Shallan's mental health seems to be deteriorating despite Wit's interjections, although her intellect is becoming better employed. I hoped she'd unify her personalities, but it's too good of a literary device to abandon now. Adolin's only getting more attention now, and I think his development will be very interesting in the future books. He just seems like a decent person with rare outbursts (Sadeas). Not to mention Dalinar's retrospective characterization, how he handles his own past, and how his amnesia helped him effect change on his own personality.

That's an interesting take on Rlain, will you also color his ridges?

It's inherently divisive because in the triangle, someone is going to get trod on. In this case it was Kal, and Adolin might be in trouble if he keeps exacerbating Shallan's condition by fraternizing with Veil and accepting her as real. It's definitely a real and, to many, relatable phenomenon, but that doesn't make it good or enjoyable.

I don't see a problem with taking the conclusion of the love "triangle" at the end of OB at its face value. Shallan and Adolin enter a mariage of love, mutual support and some political value, and Kaladin gets the emotional closure he needs. For Kaladin in particular, this is definitely the healthiest outcome. Having said that, the emotional turmoil Shallan went through, her continued exacerbation of the divide between her personalities, and Adolin's enabling of that, hints at future disasters. Her projection of some kind of "bad boy" persona on Kaladin is more a reflection of what she's (sometimes) attracted to, than a fair description of Kaladin's driven and obsessive nature, especially when she concluded that Veil has a terrible taste in men. It gives me the impression that she's mentally smearing Kaladin to convince herself that he's a bad choice. This is mostly a bad thing for her, because she's more than intelligent enough to be better than that. There are good indicators that the triangle could be finished, but then again. given Sanderson's ostensible understanding of how much a person can change, the romance could resurface after a couple of books.

Granted. Your computer will now crash with every other videogame. I wish to no longer need any sleep.

If you recall the interlude with the girl who absorbed her strength through eating (Lift?), the spren kept complaining that he thought he'd be set up with someone politically influential or a great scholar. I'm guessing a lot of spren will find their human counterparts in common people and not nobles, given what they went through during the recent wars and uprisings.

ctrl + f "expect" yielded a lot of results in this thread. I'm surprised no one posted this yet: Sorry.

For some reason I thought "ia" is a single sound/glyph that would have to be read as "ia" whenever it appears. So to me Ialai would be symmetrical if it were ia - la - ia and not ia - la - i. Your answer makes sense though.

You're right, I was referring to our real world English syntax. It's probably perfectly symmetrical in their alphabet. I think different rules are necessary for Shallash and Ialai to be accepted as symmetrical. They can't be symmetrical in the exact same system. So it could really be down to the devotaries. In line with what aeromancer was saying, I think Roshar would have its own views on what constitutes a palindrome, so Marriam-Webster can only be a rough guideline. I think some real world languages cannot be read back and forth as easily as English, anyways.