straits

I wonder if that would be the case even if Dalinar manages to unite the splinters of Honor. Presumably the Oathpact would then be between him and the new Heralds - but given what Dalinar has learned in the past few years on the timeline, would he even agree to it? It sounds like a temporary, "fool me twice" solution. Either way, I expect that humans from Roshar will be visiting Damnation no matter what happens. On the Kaladin romance topic, I'm also expecting he'll walk the lonely road. Not everyone finds a suitable partner. As long as there's a cause to fight for, she will be his only lover.

I am not fully acquainted with all the available information about the Cosmere from the related books, so I would like to have something cleared up. From what I understand, most or all of the Cosmere has been created at least partially by Adonalsium, as were humans. Since these Shards of Adonalsium are natural forces with Intent in the Cosmere, I would assume that these Shards are the only (or the main) driving forces for all events associated with them. For example, all processes that are tied to life, development, decay and death in the entire Cosmere would be influenced by Shards such as Preservation, Cultivation and Ruin. A world like Roshar has life forms that undergo the cycles which are conceptually related to Ruin/Preservation (Harmony) despite the location of the vessel(s) of these Shards. How is it that these processes can proceed on other worlds like Roshar, while facing fundamental changes on the world hosting the Shard's vessels (Scadrial) during the events of the first Mistborn trilogy? Doesn't that imply that Shards are only secondary factors to reality in all the Realms, and that this reality could exist without the Shards? Thanks

I think Sansa was 13 or so. I haven't thought much about the possibility of Syl/Kaladin, but it might be the case later on. Spren do describe themselves as forces of nature shaped by human will... but they also seem to be sapient creatures who simply live in another Realm. And Syl being the Ancient Daughter could have further repercussions to her own sapience. PS: Great username. I've yet to finish the third part of 1Q84, but it is a very interesting story.

Yep. I thought he was going to get a redemption arc, but his story went in a radical direction. Do you like him as a villain, or do you appreciate his ideals? The guy's deeds aren't as bad as Dalinar's back when the latter was a full blown war-mongering criminal, but Amaram is a class supremacist.

I think the best you can say for Shallan's state of mind at the end of OB is "happily broken and not wanting to change that".

That makes sense. I've read of the parallels some people mentioned about there being some kind of love triangle in Mistborn as well, but from what I've understood, the characters in question are very different personalities. I'll need to re-read OB, but from what I recall, Shallan's mental state by the end of it is still deliberately emphasized as problematic by the author. I would be surprised that nothing comes of it in the sequel, but I did not expect this book to be self-contained in the sense that it has both the characterization of the problem (mental issues, their exacerbation) and the solution to the problem (these mental issues being fully resolved). Maybe these concerns could be summarized and presented to Sanderson. He seems like the opposite of certain other fantasy writers who refuse to disclose their inner workings.

This nicely summarizes the disagreements I've had with several posters in this thread. I don't have much experience with Sanderson's other works (I follow the Stormlight novels exclusively), so the events at the end of OB parsed as something organic for me. I will be interested in what happens in the sequels, and my conclusion was that these emotional issues will be dealt with, given the promised breadth of the series - 7 more books of constant, idealized romance between Adolin and Shallan is something I can't imagine.

I can agree that in many conventional literary contexts, foreshadowing of internal character monologues as in Kaladin's and Shallan's case leads up to the two of them getting closer. However, I do think that in many real-life situations, a lot of such emotional angst leads exactly to the situation we've seen in the end of OB - less-than-satisfactory and possibly unhealthy relationships, emotional distancing, denial, etc. On the matter of being toyed with... it is up to interpretation. I don't mind being "misled" by a story so much as I mind being bored by a story. However, in OB, from beginning to end, the entire vector of the Shallan-Kaladin dynamic was going downwards, so the events at its end are something I more or less expected. You could argue that this entire vector is problematic after their shared moment in the chasms in WoR, of course. But it is only one shared moment, and the subsequent developments don't strain plausibility to me.

Yes, I understand the sentiment completely. Personally, after reading a large number of fantasy novels whose characters neatly found romantic resolutions (David Eddings did this criminally), what unfolded in OB was a breath of painfully fresh air. Good analogy, thanks for the clarification. I am possibly in the minority as someone who is satisfied with the current situation at the end of OB. The combination of awkward decisions and emotional mismanagement hints at very interesting developments in the sequels, for me. Like suddenly hearing an electric guitar in an orchestra, it introduces a new dimension to explore. But like you said, it is a matter of taste.

Excellent post. This is a very good way to put it. People regress and fall, and sometimes they do not get back up in a "timely" manner, and Shallan's arc(s) are made all the more interesting and relatable through her deteriorating mental state. The road forward is not neat and it does not necessarily adhere to arbitrary timeframes and dramatic cues. And sometimes, it does not even end happily. I've seen a few (though much rarer in this thread) complaints that Kaladin has not been romantically fulfilled by the end of the book, and that he should be (if not now then in the sequels), for the sake of some kind of completeness. I think this expectation is mistaken as something "necessary" to the story. I don't disagree that the criticism of the pacing is valid. However, there is also nothing invalid about Sanderson changing his approach.

I see. I'll admit that I am somewhere on the opposite end of the scale in the literary community. When something is classified as an art, breaking down objective standards is par for the course. It may not be particularly impressive art, if it uses worn-out tropes. And like yourself, I distance myself from the works of authors whose opinions and perpetuated values I disagree with. But I don't own an objective framework from which to condemn it. I personally agree with your view on the arranged marriage trope. But I believe that in order to condemn something in comparison with an objective, literary standard, in particular if it deals with what you think is good or bad for society, it should come from an axiomatically derived foundation (for most people this would be God, although for some this is a cop out). If the foundation is instead something along the lines of "it does not align with the sensibilities of a large number of people within the community", then it is not an objective standard. It is a clash of worldviews. This is probably related to how people view storyline continuity within a book. I don't see there being a resolution within this book, and instead wait for it in the next one. I understand why you could classify this as poor writing. And I agree on the Sadeas sub-plot. edit: Sorry for not going into more detail, I think your points on the commoditization (sp?) of women in society are a great addition to this thread, but since it's late, I won't be able to expand on more. But in this particular situation, I wonder if the shift in Alethi social structure with the coming of the KR will mean that Adolin is more of a political tool to Shallan than vice versa.

Thanks for the link, I did not know Sanderson chimed in on this view! However, the issue within this thread seems to be the fact that the book OB seems to be not stand-alone or modular enough to satisfy readers while they wait for certain resolutions in the sequels, which I do believe are coming, whether they are satisfactory or not. I think there is room to explore the consequences of getting into an arranged marriage. And my personal disagreement with the expectations of some other readers, has more to do with where these resolutions will take place - within, or after OB. I might get this post dropped on my head in a future thread on book 4, but I'm looking forward to that.

I can see this as a difference in how readers parse certain scenes. Shallan's erratic behaviour does not necessarily follow a neat chain of causality (or 1+1=2 in character development). But to me, this suggests that the formula for her characterization is more complex, and yet to be revealed in the series, which is part of what I find enjoyable about the book. I could be wrong here, but your previous post comes across as an indictment on Sanderson's writing because a certain character did not end up in the situation where you expected her to. You followed this up by stating that the story is therefore guilty of several tropes, boring, and that you will re-evaluate your view on the writer. This is fine. But Sanderson not fulfilling your expectation does not equate to this expectation being a literary standard he failed to achieve. In a perfect world, his job would solely be a responsibility towards society. But since there is no ethical consumption under capitalism (and that indeed is venturing into the philosophical), we can only enforce this through buying (or not buying) a book. I frequently have issues with the way certain authors have handled class, race, and the issues of lionizing warmongers. In some cases, I have dropped books and comics because the authors' underlying opinions shone through, and I did not like what I saw. I suppose it is a matter of what the dealbreaker is for you as a reader. My opinion does not seem to intersect with many readers in this thread, so I find the way it is being debated interesting

A lot of this is critique that demands the author to obey Chekhov's Gun in a very literal way. The foreshadowing for a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan ended up in internal character development and emotional concessions for both Shallan and Kaladin, with varied consequences that we are yet to fully see in the subsequent books. On your comments about his patriarchal crafting of society, I think you're right. But for better or worse, it is the prerogative of the author, and like you said - what you choose to read, is on you. I don't think anyone should be dissatisfied at the lack of resolution on mental trauma (in Shallan's case) in book 3 in a 10-book series, though. And there's an excellent piece of writing on fan expectations of authors that Neil Gaiman wrote. I don't mean to recommend it to you as a way to tell you that your opinion is invalid. But it is not the author's job to satisfy you.

I have absolute faith in our author's delivery

It does make sense. I guess the one thing where we differ is that I am currently enjoying the way the author has expanded on the mental trauma these characters have suffered, and propagated the consequences into the lives of several characters. It is (so far) more interesting than a happily ever after, and feels realistic, if not so happy. But if the problems Shallan has with her psyche just magically disappear in book 4 after Adolin's exacerbation of her dissociative disorder, I'll be dissatisfied as well. It is the opposite of what is being set up here.

Yeah, I understand that from your further explanation. Also, something that I have personally accepted over years of reading is that art is a dictatorship, not a democracy

Of course - the only thing that was really objectionable to me is suggesting what the author should or should not write, but I don't think any reader's dissatisfaction is invalid regardless. Part of why I defend the way this was written, is that I believe that a book doesn't necessarily need to be modular in every aspect - having unresolved issues makes the reading experience more authentic for me, but this is subjective. Those were exactly my thoughts, and I was baffled at how Shallan reacted at the way Pattern began to fade. Did she have trouble manipulating Stormlight afterwards? Kaladin had problems with his abilities when Syl weakened due to his poor adherence to oaths.

It's not a dismissal, there's nothing wrong with having a pet peeve in a book. And of course you don't have to be happy with the conclusion of OB. But you and a few other readers have laid out the case for why you are dissatisfied with the conclusion of this particular arc within OB. And I think there is nothing wrong with me challenging that.

But it has not been suddenly resolved, as demonstrated by references to Veil at the end of the book, and Adolin's acceptance of her. And I don't see how you expected any sort of resolution for a deep-seated mental illness at the end of the book, when the illness only really manifested as a problem in the same book (in the space of a few months in the story). So this "cliffhanger" is mostly the consequence of logistics, unless you expect a 4000 page book to neatly tie up any reader's pet peeves.

I think you have placed your dissatisfaction at the situation the characters have found themselves in, onto the author's literary decisions. The author has decided to inflict the consequences of short-sighted decision making and mental trauma onto the characters' lives. This is a valid chain of events, and there is no reason or compulsion to neatly resolve Shallan's arc in OB for the sake of placating a reader's sentiment. @Dreamstorm, the events that you have outlined at your post are not really a "plausible" alternative to what the author wrote. They are feel-good wishcasting, and that is not a reasonable thing to demand of an author.

The disclaimer is not a bad idea. But because reading a book requires a reader's mental projection of the events and characters, and is not tangibly defined as with a movie, it is harder to legally enforce. I think this would open up a can of other problems, though. I put it in spoiler tags because it's a clear digression from the topic.

That's another good point. If she were confident enough about her attraction to her "chosen", Adolin, she wouldn't be deliberately avoiding Kaladin - in particular because he isn't really the "aggressive" element in the Kaladin-Shallan dynamic. It is her who impulsively wanted to flirt with him on several occasions, and she seems to be afraid of her own actions around him. As an aside - ITT = in this thread; IIRC = if I recall correctly, FWIW = for what it's worth. Those used to puzzle me when I was new to the aSoIaF westeros forums.

I am unclear on what this responsibility entails. Does it mean the author must study the real world equivalent of the mental issue, and devote a character's arc to the successful and medically confirmed treatment of the issue?

I would think that a spren bond (and the resulting shardblade) would be categorized differently on account of the KR status, but yeah, that makes sense.