happyman

On 8/1/2016 at 1:18 AM, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Personally, I believe life sense has to do with Connection, not Investiture.

Every Breath is essentially a piece of Endowment, meaning there is a Spiritual Connection between all Breaths.
As a person gathers more Breath that Connection becomes stronger and more noticeable, resulting in a better (and eventually perfect) life sense.
Drabs do have innate Investiture (spark of life), but still can't be detected through life sense, however strong, because they don't have their own little piece of Endowment to Connect with.

Bronze operates on completely different principles, mostly explained in the books and WoBs, so I believe there is little or no overlap between Seeking and life sensing.

There is evidence in Words of Radiance against this idea, although it takes a certain amount of knowledge/sleuthing to make all the connections.

Words of Radiance and Warbreaker spoilers

15 hours ago, Irkutsk said:

So, let's say that in another 50 years after era 2, we have a lurcher who has a degree in nuclear physics. He takes a sample of a pure uncommon isotope of iron and tries to burn it. If he knows perfectly well, that this iron sample is not like regular iron, would that then affect the iron's cognitive identity and thus it's ability to be burned? 

I don't think so.  As far as I can tell, the cognitive effect on things like this is usually a very broad consensus.  Individual perceptions only come into play only if they are within "standard" or "expected" versions of the cognitive and spiritual consensus.  I don't think stable isotopes are different enough for a single person to affect it.

1 hour ago, BeskarKomrk said:

An alloy like steel is a mixture of multiple elements, with at least one of them being a metal. The properties that make steel valuable as a building material are properties of the molecular structure, which does indeed change when it is melted down. However, steel in general, and Allomantic Steel in particular, are defined by the percentages of the different elements they contain. That mixture doesn't change when melted down. If you touched molten steel (ouch), you would still be touching the same mix of iron atoms and carbon atoms and whatever else is in Allomantic Steel. So from that perspective, I don't see why it would make a difference.

I also think there's an argument you could make that the Cognitive Identity of steel isn't changed when it's melted down, and that's the determining factor behind why it would still work

You're right about the melted structure still being an alloy.  In that case, though, the Spiritweb isn't looking at individual atoms, but large-scale average properties.  This is fine, but it almost certainly means that it can't tell the difference between different isotopes.

The cognitive identity being important produces the same conclusion.  If it's the cognitive identity of the steel which makes it steel, then, since people can't easily tell the difference between different isotopes, or generally even know that isotopes are a thing, the different isotopes should behave identically.

Either way, isotopes have no effect on Allomancy.

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@happyman Since we have a physicist on the subject already...

The thing is, we know that it doesn't matter which state the metal is in. It's possible to store and tap in molten metal, for example (obviously not advised for obvious reasons). Logical conclusion is that metal in any state can be burned (obviously not advised... with exception of bendalloy, perhaps).

But solid matter, liquids and gases differ on the molecular level - in gases atoms float freely while in solid state they are firmly in place.

Could you perhaps elaborate on that?

Can you provide sources for that?  I don't remember any canonical examples of this.  If it were true, then burning alloys in those states would be difficult to define properly.

OK, I'm seeing confusion here about what an isotope is and means.

First, my conclusions:  Different metal isotopes work just fine for Allomancy.  The Allomancy probably can't "see" well enough to know that they are different.

My background:  Physics Ph.D., but not one specializing in chemistry or "condensed-matter physics," i.e. the physics of the solid things around us.

Broadly speaking, all atoms have two different structures, the electronic structure and the nucleus structure.  

The structure of the nucleus is what creates isotopes.  Every nucleus consists of a combination of protons and neutrons.  All that really matters in the nucleus is the number of protons and neutrons; technically a nucleus can have different "shapes" depending on how the protons and neutrons are arranged, but in practice the forces between the protons and neutrons are so strong you never actually see a "wild" nucleus in anything besides the most compact version.  The number of protons is what determines which element the atom is, and the number of neutrons determines which isotope the atom is.  The important point about this nuclear structure is that it is very compact.  It's obscenely small.  Although it contains 99.94% or so of the mass of an atom, it's volume is roughly 1/100,000 that of the atom.  It's hard to see or measure.

The structure that is most important for chemistry is the structure of the electrons.  For practically all atoms, the structure of the electrons depends almost purely on the number of protons in the nucleus rather than the total mass in the nucleus.  (Technically the electron structure is slightly affected by the mass differences between the isotope nuclei, but good luck actually measuring the effects.  It's next to impossible with atoms as large as most metals.)  It's the chemistry, the electrons, which determines the kind of "shapes" the atoms form when they are combined into a solid.  This is largely why different isotopes of the same element are found together.  They act very much the same at the level of chemical reactions and can mix almost perfectly together into the same "grids."

My argument is that it is the chemical configurations which the Spiritweb senses when it burns the metals and uses that as a conduit for power.  My evidence is that the exact alloys matter when creating the paired internal and external metals.  The major effect of alloying metals is to change the legal chemical structure of the metals.  The "extra" atoms for the "other" metals have to fit somewhere, and that changes the kinds of patterns the atoms can make. The power is obviously not looking at the individual atoms, but rather the large-scale structures those atoms form.  Otherwise copper and bronze would produce the same power for Smokers, and would also be burnable by Tineyes.  Presumably Seekers would not exist.

Thus the effects of isotopes is almost certainly too small for Allomancy to detect.  Another way to think of it is that you could have a good metal which is a specific isotope, with all the other isotopes being slightly off.  However, the difference between the "true" metal and its isotopes is so obscenely small, no Mistborn or Misting would ever notice that their recent push or pull was weak by a factor of 99.99999999999999%.

I don't pretend to really understand it, but one really important functional difference is that a world-hopper can re-enter the physical realm and have their original body back and interact with the people normally.  Cognitive shadows can't enter, or even really affect, the physical realm at all.

Just now, Shadeshadow227 said:

...wait. Breeze wasn't part skaa? How did he survive Kelsier?

He lied.  As far as I can tell, only Sazed really had all the pieces to figure it out, and he cared much more for the kind of person Breeze was, than who his parents were.

22 hours ago, Kolten said:

(However I would love to be wrong, I really want to see vasher awaken something on roshar) 

It's practically a trope in its own right that the "mysterious stranger" who shows up to help will have his own magic system, completely independent of the rest.  Since Hoid has already shown off his magic a couple of times, I don't see why he should be the one to have all the fun.  After all, Brandon Sanderson has a far better justification for it than most times I've seen it.

Just now, Radiant Returned said:

I could get behind this, but even if Jaddeth was just a name for Dominion, it still results in the same thing. Dominion has been splintered, there is no sentient god on the planet that is really directing Wyrn or the Derethi. So while Wyrn might have some magical powers (he definitely seems to have some semblance of foresight) the religion seems like a sham and a front to me. 

Things like this become complicated when dealing with Shards.  If Devotion and Dominion are half as invested other shards in the Cosmere, then even shattered they will be forces to be reckoned with.

1 minute ago, Radiant Returned said:

I don't think Jaddeth is real. He's obviously not a god, the gods are Devotion and Dominion and neither of their Vessel's names are Jaddeth. Also it's mentioned in Elantris that Jaddeth was originally a minor rock god from another religion, that Shu-Dereth turned into their main guy. I think the whole point of Shu-Dereth is how a peaceful religion like Shu-Keseg can be twisted by dangerous people to be used as an excuse to dominate others and gain power. 

That all sounds very reasonable.  I'd only change it by saying that it's "really" a merging of the worship of Dominion and Jaddeth---Dominion was real, Jaddeth was not, but for probably political reasons, the two of them were claimed to be the same.  Given Dominion's intent, this probably doesn't really hurt him or his power all that much, either.

1 hour ago, CeeJayEm said:

We were listening to HoA last night on our drive home and when I heard Sazed say that about the inquisitors not being able to draw the power, I thought it was way too big of a plot hole for Sanderson to have missed. So he didn't miss anything, she did have to take the earring out. I guess her proximity to Ruin's concentrated power at the Well probably allowed him to speak to her the same even when she took the earring out then? 
 

Yeah, near the well, when it was full of power, the "distance" between the three realms was drastically reduced.  Ruin had a far easier time reaching from the spiritual into the cognitive and physical near the well.  Presumably this included speaking to Vin.

On 7/22/2016 at 11:02 PM, Erklitt said:

I'm beginning to think I need to get the hardcovers just for those extras, even though I probably will never actually read them. I imagine they must be rather bulky, and I like reading with the book held in one hand, which makes the kindle just ideal.

Getting in shape enough to read one of the Stormlight books with one hand would be quite the exercise regime.  Pity it would just end up giving you enormous hands.

3 hours ago, Magestar said:

Ah.  It all makes sense now.  At least, it makes more sense than it did before.

I always felt the last two books (Written by Douglas Adams.) were not as good as the first three.  They felt... Unsatisfactory.  Then again the universe was falling apart at this point.

 

 

You and everybody else.  Well, not everybody else, but I think most people like those two a lot less.

They didn't really have anywhere to go after using up the Radio Broadcasts and the nascent Dr. Who script (the third book.)

Stormlight doesn't behave all that much like electricity.  Since we know that the Cosmere has real electricity, we can't read it as an analogy, either.

If you had enough static electricity build up in a storm to produce the glowing and effects we see, it wouldn't be a storm.  It would almost instantly turn into the world largest lightning bolt and blow off a significant chunk of the planet.  It may have started off as static electricity, but it wouldn't stay static for long.

6 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

I think in the piercing scenario, you certainly wouldn't regrow the diamond, no one is that convinced it's part of their body. The hole for the piercing would probably not heal because you see yourself as having that piercing, but the actual jewelry you would have to replace. 

I'd add to this that if the cognitive realm had as many loopholes as people here on the forums seem to think, then madmen would be gods in fact, rather than in their own minds.  The cosmere clearly doesn't work that way; not at all.  Madmen may be able to hear the gods and other things normal people are protected from, but for the most part it's obviously rather a down-side than otherwise, rather like the real world.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the "bigger" (more wide-spread) ideals and forms create really strong constraints on what things like healing can do.  Since nobody but Kaladin has a really strong opinion on whether or not he should be branded as a slave, and because having slave brands falls well within the consensus range of "normal and healthy," Kaladin's vote counts for the most.  Believing that you should be able to regrow earings does not fall in this range by any kind of wide consensus, and thus I don't believe that any normal person, no matter how mad, would be able to work against it.

On 6/14/2016 at 6:55 PM, The Point Man said:

At this point,I've given up on thinking about it.I've reached one conclusion:Hoid gives me a huge head-ache.

Yeah, being deliberately mysterious and obtuse is one of his hobbies.  He gets a huge kick out of it.

I think there is more to his little story than first meets the eye.  Hoid does seem to have a feel for when things are important and when they aren't.

Don't forget that it's not just your personal view of yourself that affects how healing works.  The global view of "what is a human" and "what is not" and "what can be healed" and "what can't" is almost certainly going to affect what a healer can actually do as well.  There are very few people who think that humans can naturally grow diamonds!  This gigantic, essentially universal understanding will almost certainly bear down on the healer in a such a way that they can't pull stunts like this even if they, personally, were deluded enough to really believe they could grow diamonds.

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

This is an interesting though happyman... I sincerely want to love Lift because she sounds like a great character, so perhaps I need to put myself into the right mind frame and to find the one angle I would be able to appreciate her the most.

I had a half-theory once stating all Radiants were terribly self-centered and while they were capable of doing great things for others, they still saw to themselves, a lot. I was not sure where I was going with it, but you gave me an additional clue.

The key, as usual with Sanderson characters, is to ignore (a lot of) what she thinks, and almost all of what she says, and look at what she is actually doing.  Lightsong is a similar character this way, but wittier and more constrained.  But the basics are there.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I have stated a response into the Events and Signing thread about the new Lift excerpt. I had to admit I was not as enthusiasm as others about it. While I'll admit it certainly will offer undeniably interesting world-building elements (just by virtue of not happening in Alethkar), I was not convinced by Lift as a main protagonist. I liked her interlude in WoR because I found it refreshing and different, but I am dubious about a whole book featuring her as the main character. She worked for me because she was a side arc, but as a major one, I have my reserves. I find her too scattered around, not coherent enough, gliding from one place to the other without a definite plan or a purpose and getting out of hot spot simply by being lucky.  

I think you should read that interlude again.  Lift is very good at lying, and while she does it to lots of other people, her main target is herself.  It took me a while to realize what her real motives were, but when I did, the whole thing snapped into place for me.

Also, she is a very good person at heart.  It's remarkable, really, just how good she is at hiding that from everybody.  She's mostly random in her words, not her actions, which tends to confuse folks.

Which makes me mourn for Inquisitors (well, Marsh, really.)  He can see lots of things, but he can't see sunrises or sunsets any more.  And museums of fine art must baffle him no end.

Which also makes me wonder if there were ever any artistic Inquisitors, which produce art which other Inquisitors can appreciate.  I imagine it would be very subtle.

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

@happyman, that would be a very neat way to wrap it up. Though the upvote is not because I agree with you, but simply because you quoted  correctly obscure modern physics.

It's something someone should ask peter, seeing as how it has potential implications for how the cosmere works at a fundamental level

Quantum mechanics is frigging weird when it comes to this kind of thing.  Combine it with Special Relativity and it's quite literally impossible to give a single moment when a wave-function collapses, (or whatever mechanism your favorite interpretation gives of what happens).  All that we can say is that the final result will not violate the order of cause and effect---and Atium completely short-circuits that all by itself.  It would be far simpler to make it work if the Atium burner counts as an observer, seeing the atom's decision before the atom itself knows it has made it.

This is so very tricky, isn't it?  Nice and philosophical and all.

We've actually gotten some insight into how Atium works, thanks to Mistborn: Secret History.

From this, we can conclude that Atium and Shardic Future sight are one and the same power, but with the first one being much weaker than the second.

We know from other sources (Honor, in particular) that these visions of the future are changing and splitting as things go on.  On the other hand, Atium seems to be completely deterministic for a couple of seconds.

My guess is that even with true quantum randomness, the Atium observer is enough of an observer to see what the effect is going to be after the decay occurs.  The act of the Atium burner seeing what is gong to happen is enough to "collapse the wave function" and make the behavior deterministic.  Of course, this creates the usual future-sight feedback loop, but radioactive atoms don't much care about avoiding a Seer, so I doubt it has any practical effects.

Upvoted just because it's a fun thought.

Can I just say here how much I like the term Mistpoint for the kind of absurd power people held when using the Bands?

As for being a Sliver...I don't know.  Despite what Brandon said, I feel like there's something qualitatively different about somebody who's become a Sliver.  An echo of (secret history spoiler)

I don't know what it is, but there's something there which just changes a person.  I don't think either Wax or Marasi had enough of "that," whatever it is.

The party scene is one of the most difficult in Shadows of Self.  Personally, I think it was a combination of two things that allowed it to go down as it did:
 

1. Cooperation from the Set, as WayneSpren said.  He was a deliberate decoy.
2. The fact that the "governor" managed to quietly take off pretty much as soon as Wax left.  Paalm knew what Wax was going to do, and was deliberately taunting him.

It was all a very deliberate shell games designed to lead him in entirely the wrong direction.  Think of it a magic trick, where Wax was completely distracted by the hand which had nothing in it.