Nebty

Yeah, I think it's more this than an actual crush. Shallan deeply respects Jasnah and looks up to her. She may also think she's attractive, but I doubt she harbors any romantic feelings towards her.

I believe Brandon did say that Renarin was getting a viewpoint chapter in OB, but probably only one.

Agreed, but this was a long time coming. After the end of WoR she can't deny her painful truths anymore, and it's driving her nuts. This is going to be what WoR was for Kaladin, I think. Which hopefully means that she'll be getting an awesome arc by the end. Crossing my fingers.

Sure. It was at one of the events in Poland:

Yay! I finally got one! And you too. I find this stuff so interesting. I've started my WoK + WoR re-read in advance of Oathbringer and it's nice to be able to talk about them.

True. I should've clarified that we haven't seen how her soulcasting interacts with illumination. Adhesion and Gravitation go hand in hand for Windrunners. And I think it'd be odd if a lightweaver's surges could be kept 100% separate. It's a chicken and egg situation. Like Kaladin's fighting. Are spren attracted to people with these abilities, or do the abilities come with the spren? It's the same debate about whether rotspren cause rot or are just attracted to it, and the answer seems to be both yes and no. Ultimately, I agree with you. I think Shallan's natural ability to inspire people is being enhanced by her surges. But I also think that the reason she's a lightweaver is because she can change people in this way. Kaladin's desire/ability to protect, Shallan's desire/ability to transform... They're part of who they are, just like their powers. It's very difficult to separate them out.

You are correct! They are not just friends. They're betrothed to be married. And even though being in love with the person you're betrothed to isn't exactly a given in upper-class Alethi society, they're definitely fond of each other, and physically/romantically attracted. However, I don't see how you could call Shallan and Kaladin "just friends" either, given all the indications we've gotten that they're both attracted to each other as well. Plus a WoB that says that there'll be "Shalladin Moments" in Oathbringer, which pretty much removes any ambiguity as to what Brandon was intending. It's a love triangle. There is mutual attraction between Shallan and Adolin, as well as between Shallan and Kaladin. We have no idea how that's going to be resolved, but it's the state things are at as of right now. Could Shallan and Kaladin's relationship have stayed pretty much the same if these romantic feelings between them had never manifested? Sure! Because for 80% of WoR they hated each other's guts. It's only really around the end that their feelings change. But that just means that we haven't seen the implications of this development yet.

I mean, you're right, they wouldn't have been presented to each other as prospects for an arranged marriage if they were the same gender. But are you trying to say that Shallan and Adolin can't be friends outside of their romantic relationship? Well, we know for sure that Kaladin at least doesn't think of Shallan as just a friend. But they are indeed friends in addition to their attraction to one another.

Again, I believe the line is fuzzier than you seem to think. Do I think that Shallan can permanently transform a physical object into a different physical object using lightweaving? No. But I do think that her transformations of herself and other people are, in some way, tied to her surges. Pattern's job is to tell her how her powers work. Why would he exclusively speak in metaphor? Words of Radiance spends so much time reinforcing how Shallan has the ability to transform lies into truth. And even if the illusions of lightweaving are temporary, the effects they have on people linger. Plus, we just don't know yet how soulcasting comes into the mix. Shallan does have the ability to permanently transform things, after all. We just haven't explicitly seen her use it yet. But the way a lightweaver uses illumination would differ from how a truthwatcher uses it because of the interaction between the two surges. You might not be able to separate the two so wholly.

I don't think it's that cut and dried. Lightweavers have been referred to as having a special ability to do something related to transforming people. That ability being tied to the Lightweavers as a whole makes it sound like it is, in part, magical. It's like Kaladin's connection with his bridgemen, it's something he does naturally but it's enhanced by his abilities as a Windrunner, shown by them gaining some small part of his abilities themselves as squires. It's all part of the strange, almost philosophical aspect to the Radiants' abilities. Which makes sense if you consider the nature of the spiritual and cognitive realms. Dalinar's role as a leader has mystical aspects to it as well. Getting back to Shallan, Pattern basically outright says that her convincing the deserters to go back for the other traders was a transformation tied to her abilities. The philosophical basis of Shallan's abilities are "truth and lies" and the interplay between them. Pattern keeps coming back to this. It reminds me strongly of Shai's abilities for that reason (I don't think it's a coincidence that they're both artists). Shai makes art because she wants to make things better than they are. She transforms things, and people, into what they could be, or could become. I have a feeling that this is how Sanderson thinks of artists, and it's why I love The Emperor's Soul. Shallan does the same thing, both consciously and unconsciously. A great example is the chasm scene. In a way, even though she didn't realize it, she helped transform Kaladin as well. He saw in her someone who had gone through similar hardship, but was able to smile, meaning that it may also be possible for him. She shows others a version of themselves that they can aspire to, and it's deeply tied to the way she transforms herself. We're starting to see the dangers in her doing that without having the truth to anchor herself (like Shai reforging herself as someone completely different, without the memory of who she truly is). However I think this is all ultimately part of her abilities as a Lightweaver. One last quote, from when Gaz asked Shallan to draw him. It's a lie. A white lie. Gaz isn't the man in the picture. But the man in the picture is what Gaz is starting to become. EDIT: And I just realized how significant the interplay between the use of the words "forge" (to produce a copy or imitation for the purpose of deception), and "reforge" (to remake something) is. Lies and truth, once again. I love The Emperor's Soul.

I don't think it's going to be as dramatic as Shai's changes, but I think what's special about the combination of illumination and transformation is that Shallan will eventually be able to go further than illusion. I'm not sure to what extent, but it's been hinted at in her transformation of the deserters.

God, I hope not. Legion was probably the only Sanderson story I disliked. It reminds me more of Shai's abilities in The Emperor's Soul.

@Aleksiel Gotcha! Just wanted to clarify.

[disregard]

I never said that. I said that the meta argument was unconvincing because everything is tropes. And that arguing that one plot point is objectively better than another because one is too tropey misses the point that "too tropey" is an entirely subjective thing. I wasn't attacking your particular feelings about the characters, just the way you were arguing.

Like SLNC, I think the 'but she's a lighteyes' stuff is Kaladin desperately trying to avoid admitting that he likes her. Probably not at first, but definitely after he actually got to know her. In the second quote you posted, he thinks that, "The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth." Basically acknowledging his feelings, to himself if not to Syl. He does the same thing late in WoR. His views have shifted since he refused to even see a lighteyes as attractive in his conversation with Yake. He still isn't the biggest fan of them, but he's attracted to Shallan despite that, because of who she is. And that's also why I can't quite see the Veil thing happening. He's already accepted a lighteyes as a romantic interest, more or less. The biggest barrier now is 1) she's betrothed to his friend, and 2) he doesn't know whether she reciprocates his feelings. I do think it would be interesting for Kaladin and Veil to meet. He has a very sensitive b*llshit detector where Shallan is concerned, and he only really started liking her once she let him see the real her. So would Kaladin catch on to Veil being a lie?

We've already seen Shallan do something like this. When she convinced the deserters to become heroes in Words of Radiance. And she continued that transformation later when she started drawing their portraits. This is one of the most interesting things about Lightweavers for me; their ability to inspire by showing people what they could be. It's also deeply tied to Shallan's personas (and now we can see the unhealthy flip-side of it in the new chapters). Shallan hates herself, and imagines herself as someone else in order to do the things she needs to do, because deep down she doesn't think that she's capable enough.

I mean...I don't really think it matters? The bigger problem is that Shallan doesn't have anybody to lean on right now except Pattern. And that's going to be a problem going forward as she keeps using her powers in order to try and cope with her trauma and self-loathing in an unhealthy way. Adolin would probably be able to help but Shallan is so freaked out about the prospect of him thinking badly of her that she isn't telling him anything. Which leads to stuff like the creation of Brightness Radiant.

I think this is very significant (and heartbreaking). I had a feeling that OB was going to be difficult for Shallan. That seems to be the pattern. After his own book, Kaladin spent a lot of WoR being depressed and paranoid in the process of healing. For Shallan, she's finally faced her memories and now she has to deal with all of this pent-up self-loathing she's been keeping under lock and key for years. I think she's going to get worse before she gets better. Just like Kaladin did. The worst part, I think, is that Shallan just doesn't have the support network that other characters have. Adolin, Dalinar, and Renarin have each other (and Navani). They have a loving and supportive family they can turn to when things get bad. Adolin's trying to include her, but the problem is that Adolin doesn't know. He has no idea how broken she is. And that is why (as of right now) he can't do anything for her. He doesn't know about her trauma with the blade, so to him, training her in it just common sense. And for Shallan, all of her interactions with Adolin are so high-stakes that she doesn't feel comfortable confiding in him. Adolin isn't responsible for Brightness Radiant, but this consistent lack of communication between them makes me really worried about Shallan. So who else does Shallan have? Pattern. But her relationship with Pattern is complicated, and also Pattern is a spren. He loves her, but he also doesn't really get how humans think. He understands that she's lying to herself but he doesn't understand why. One of the most significant moments for Shallan's character was losing Jasnah. Jasnah was her mentor, someone she could finally look up to. Someone who, while not knowing everything, had been betrayed by Shallan but admired her anyways. What I want for Shallan is for her to have someone to vent to. Someone who knows all the secrets she tries so hard to hide from the people she admires. Maybe it'll be Jasnah. But I also think she could really use another talk with Kaladin. The most recent chapters made clear that Shallan hates herself. In her bad moments, she doesn't see anything redeeming about herself. She thinks of her lies as a mask to fool the world into thinking she's confident and competent when she's actually a scared, broken little girl. She wants to be someone else so desperately that she's starting to trick herself into thinking that she is. But I think the significant thing about her relationship with Kaladin (in whatever form you choose to interpret), is that he genuinely thinks of her ability to carry on after trauma as a strength. He admires her because of her history, rather than in spite of it. And I think it would do Shallan a lot of good if she knew that.

Yup, that is exactly what I meant when I said, "his hangups with romance aren't because he just hasn't found the right girl, and now that he has he's finally motivated to try". It looks like we...agree? And because his issues aren't external, they won't be fixed externally either. Shallan may be different for Adolin, but he's still the same person who hasn't yet been able to keep a steady relationship. That doesn't mean I don't support their relationship or want it to fail. But I also don't think that his relationship with Shallan is particularly world-shattering or unique in the grand scheme of things. And I also don't think that it's his only path to happiness. Maybe, maybe not. And does Adolin really need a romantic relationship by the end of the story? I think the whole 'Adolin is bad at hanging onto romantic relationships' thing could be addressed in a satisfying way without necessarily meaning he has to end up with anyone in the first half of the series. There's more to his character than that. And I feel the same way about all of the characters, honestly. Shallan doesn't need to end up with anybody in particular. Neither does Kaladin.

I just don't see how Adolin being presented as having problems with lasting romantic relationships necessarily means that what he needs is a successful romantic relationship with Shallan. Sure, I get that there are romance-related developments in his future. But wouldn't that foreshadowing be equally relevant if his relationship with Shallan also fails? Because his hangups with romance aren't because he just hasn't found the right girl, and now that he has he's finally motivated to try; they come from internal issues that he needs to acknowledge and deal with. So in one scenario, he deals with those issues because he really wants to hold on to Shallan and realizes that he needs to change in order for that to happen. In another scenario, these issues cause them to break up, which makes him realize that he needs to do some soul-searching because he finally lost a girl he actually cared about and he doesn't want it to happen again. Both equally plausible, and both fulfilling that promise to the readers that Adolin will, in some way, realize that he sabotages his romantic relationships and finally learns to confront it and change. The latter may be more painful for him, but it's still a satisfying resolution. And I don't think that things not working out with Shallan would lead to him turning evil or spiralling into depression. Breakups suck, but it could also be a catalyst for character growth.

Yeah, love triangles really aren't my favourite thing, mostly because one of the points on the triangle is usually either demonized or forgotten about. Or the author beats around the bush too long which makes the characters come off as clingy or indecisive or just horrible communicators. Which can be painful if you like all of the characters involved. But I was pleasantly surprised by the relationships in WoR, and it gives me a good feeling for what's going to come next. I do like conflict in relationships. Clashing personalities and values are what makes relationships interesting (one of the reasons Adolin and Kaladin are so much fun to read about). I can see a lot of conflict being set up that will be interesting to watch played out. And I also think that Sanderson is a good enough writer to do it while not selling his characters short.

I feel that. But what makes a 'tiresome trope' is also subjective. You can say, "I hate chosen one narratives, they're everywhere. I don't want to read any more of them in any context." But you've got another person who loves them and seeks them out. And a third person who isn't usually a fan, but makes an exception when they find one that's a particularly well-written example. Something that's cliche to one person isn't necessarily cliche to everyone.

I'm not trying to attack your opinion, I guess I'm just expressing confusion as to how, if Kaladin and Shallan got into a relationship, it would be 'played out as if it's an average YA'. I mean, if you wanted to go unexpected for unexpected's sake then Shallan and Adolin wouldn't exactly be breaking new ground either. I guess my fundamental disconnect with the meta argument is that I just don't see what's so distastefully cliche about any of the interactions the characters have had so far. It all fits very well within the context of the book. And if it's been well-written up to this point, then I don't really think that will change in the future, whichever direction Brandon decides to go in.

You don't have to like it? I mean, I guess it's all a matter of taste but I just find the meta arguments really unconvincing. You can boil down nearly anything into tropes. That doesn't rob stories of their power. For example, for me, the chasm scene was one of the most powerful moments in Words of Radiance because of how emotional it was, and how well it had been set up. You've spent so much time with these characters, and you understand them so well, that you realize how much it means for them to share their innermost pain with someone else. If that counts as a 'Shalladin' moment then I want more! I don't really care if they go down a romantic path or not, same for Shallan and Adolin. I just really enjoy reading about these characters.