Pattern

Slow torture. Each week until November 14th (or 16th for me).

Me neither. Will be working then. After work speed reading party then... Until now, the reason for him not becoming a Radiant would be just being not broken. That might change soon. That might also be an explanation for Renarin's odd behaviour. Regarding Renarin: Glys, Glyph. Dalinar wanted to persuade Renarin to join the devotaries, but he always rejected. I bet Renarin can read and write none the less (this might be stated directly somewhere, i am not finished with my reread, yet), without being an ardent. Stormwardens also kind of predict the future and in chapter 60, Dalinar's inner monologue says: That's all about that for now, needed to write nightly insights down quickly. Perhaps more later... Oh, and wasn't Renarin supposed to practice surgebinding with Shallan. Bets on the chapters today.

Vorin culture predates the Hierocracy, since that is viewed as a stain in their history. So Oathbringer is surely written after the Recreance but not necessarily after the Hierocracy. If the trend to "younger" books continues, it might be well from the days of the Hierocracy though that is highly speculative. It would also be highly interesting, perhaps shedding light on these days. This is what I see as the most common and likely interpretation. I wanted to point to possible alternatives, to keep our minds flexible.

I guess Odium does not pull the name out of a hat. Especially he has a whole lot of voidbringers (formerly known as Parshmen and Parshendi) to chose from now. Eshonai was still fighting the voidspren influence in her, so perhaps she will come back as free Listener. She is an explorer by heart and perhaps she finds a way to get rid of her voidspren. Venli, on the other hand, even deceived her sister in regard to the spren she was supposed to bond. Odiums influence in her has been strong for a long time, thus she has all lights blinking around her to be chosen as champion.

Because Jasnah is being fine with being called a heretic. She sees nothing bad in it, so she doesn't care if anyone calls her that or not. You can read about that in The Thrill, published in the anthology Unfettered II. Spoilers for The Thrill:

The sunmaker was king after the Hierocracy. He is not the original owner of Oathbringer. It happens only to have been his shardblade. Of course, the Knight Radiant who had Oathbringer as a sprenblade and then betrayed his oaths probably would not have written a book about his blade either. Dalinar would not have a book brewing in him since youth. Perhaps after he started having visions, but certainly not before. If Oathbringer is in line with The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance (in-world books), then Oathbringer is also an ancient book. Of all known characters Jasnah would fit best, but although she is in her thirties, she cannot be considered ancient (and really, she wouldn't care if more women called her heretic). Additionally I want to notice that the book Oathbringer does not necessarily have to be about the shardblade Oathbringer. The names could be coincidentally the same. I hope we will soon get more than the preface of Oathbringer. I'd like to know what the book is about. Possibly the history of the order of Bondsmiths (the sword is no Bondsmith sword, Bondsmiths don't have sprenblades).

Everybody is looking amongst the humans to find Odium's champion. We have one person though who is working toward Odium's goals since at least 6(7 now?) years: Venli. She was there when Szeth was bought to assassinate Gavilar in the end, she collected stormspren and probably secretly bonded one long before Eshonai went into the storm to see what it does. Venli betrayed her people who fought so hard to stay independent of their gods of old and suffered greatly for that. In the end, her machinations brought on the Everstorm and with it the next Desolation. Perhaps she seems too obvious, but sometimes the obvious is just what it is.

You have a point there, his story arc might not feel too repetitive if done well. Still, I would enjoy it more if Adolin were able to wiggle out of his tight spot. I just don't want him to suffer for doing the right thing (which I think he did in killing Sadeas). Adolin also might crack when he (and we) find out how his mother died. Also, there is a very close person who has been forgotten that he can remember. I will remember those who have been forgotten. My guess on Odium's champion would not be amongst the humans. I suspect Venli to be it, since she has been working to bring the Everstorm for quite a long time. Her presense in buying Szeth in he prologue indicates for me, that she was doing Odium's work even then. The familiarity Dalinar feels in the vision would be the Thrill, even Adolin can sense it in is fight with Eshonai in her while he himself is not affected by it (which in itself indicates that Adolin is protected from it by his (quite but not totally dead) spren - or Nergaoul leaves out humans to support only the Parshendi in this batlle) Anyone with new clues about Renarin? I have been fishing in WoK for a while now and still come up with nothing except in chapter 19: Starfalls. There is the mentioning of one Harkaylain who says the Desolation were close and he were not often wrong. More information is cut off. This looks at least like Renarin's prediction of the Everstorm, so some kind of precognition or guessing the future was present with the Knights Radiant of old.

That is perfectly fine. How boring would it be if everyone found the same things interesting ;-) I wouldn't like another fall and rise of a character. We've had enough of that with Kaladin in my opinion. I don't need a repetition with Adolin. And I would not say the chapters until now were superfluous, we've got a mystery novel hidden in Oathbringer - that adds a new flavour to the series. Agreed. Oh, I wasn't aware of that. My approach has always only been that spren are subject to human/parshendi thoughts and Adolin talking and personifying his Shardblade regularly (he is quite emotional towards it before his duels) could eventually lead to a revival. Also Adolin fits the profile of an Edgedancer (what the Blade seems from). More about that elsewhere. But ducks are tasty, too. Hmmm. In another thread there is a very nice profiling why Adolin fits to the Edgedancers. I found it very convincing. One thing coming to my mind right now is that Adolin cares for all his lost soldiers (for example at the hunt in WoK), while most other Alethi lighteyes forget them, they don't really count as losses for the majority. Adolin cares and remembers. Spren behave quite similar to quantum objects. So Why not? There is one quote from a book written by Ali-daughter-Hasweth of Shinovar in WoR: And from the Szeth Interlude: We also know from the Rysn interlude in WoK that Shin only take souldcast metal which has not been mined from the stones for trade: From that Interlude it also becomes clear, that the difference between "worthless", "unholy" and "too holy to use" for the Shin might be not really recognizable for outsiders. So "uncursed", "unhallowed" and "holy" might be used as synonyms by us. The stones of Urithiru being soulcast would make them walkable for Shin, I guess. The strata in the walls or the tower indicate that those stones were not soulcast though. Of course, as has been stated above, the tunnels could have been soulcast into the stone, transforming stone to smoke like Jasnah did in Kharbranth. Perhaps stones shaped by soulcasting would also make them unhallowed?

This sounds...evil XDD. But thanks for your insights about broken bones. I also only have some experiences from relatives, never broken anything myself. I totally agree that the injured wrist will play a role. Evil again (in an amusing way)...The storm is gone here (I forgot to put out some spheres), now we've got the Weeping. I so feel with Kaladin. I have to agree that more copycat murders would increase the pressure on Adolin. I don't see him confessing the murder of Sadeas publicly would help, though, at least not before he has found the culprit for the copycat murders. He is in a tight spot, I hope he won't be in it alone for too long. Renarin almost certainly knows and Shallan should not take much longer to find out. Her reaction could be especially harsh or, to surprise some of us, she could be understanding. She is more or less in the same spot having killed her parents without anyone except her family knowing (about her father, mother is covered). I read a bit in WoR since yesterday and there Shallan is so positive about and infatuated with Adolin that his little lie to her might not impact too hard. And Sadeas killed is one problem solved. The best thing to do for Adolin now would be to confess to Dalinar in private and see that he gets a commendation for removing the traitor Sadeas. Convincing Dalinar that it was the right thing to do would be tough, but Adolin has a way of getting through to his father. Also, Elhokar should have gotten rid of Sadeas long ago. If Elhokar objects, well there is work to do for the king in Kholinar, Dalinar should show him the way out of Urithiru in this case. Although Dalinar's purpose is to unite, there are people who don't want to be united. Of those he has to get rid of, at least in Urithiru. Like not everybody has to be saved by Kaladin, not everybody will be united by Dalinar. He has to start with those willing, the rest might or might not fall in line when the thread of the Desolation becomes more imminent. I hope that when it comes to a choice between Adolin and Team Sadeas, Dalinar will stand with his family and oust his opponents out of Urithiru. As Wit stated correctly in WoR, "it is an era for tyrants. I doubt this place is ready for anything more, and a benevolent tyrant is preferable to the disaster of weak rule." I don't think everybody has to fall before growing and I wish that to be the case for Adolin. He does not have to become a Radiant to be an intersting character, so I would be very fine with him not cracking under the pressure, just to give room for a Nahel bond. @Elena gave some nice arguments against an aimed attack against Adolin. Opposed to her, I stay with my guess that Ialai is probably behind the murders, even if she is just fishing for results or to sow chaos in Urithiru. If the second murder stays the only one, we have to look to Team Adolin, though: Assume Renarin is behind the copycat murder, he will see how the first one distressed Adolin and he won't commit another one. I guess next week we will find out more... For me it indicated that Renarin probably knows about Adolin. He doesn't say anything, but he watches his brother. Closely. Urithiru is above the storms, so there are only little new crem deposits there. That doesn't mean that the base rock from which it is formed hasn't built up from crem deposits and folded up to a mountain range in the distant past, thus yielding stratified rocks. This would have happened well before the city has been built/carved, whatever (surely not soulcast). BTW, the rock Adolin slayed for Shallan on the Shattered Plains consisted of strata on the outer part and a solid white rock in the middle. Thus Shallan came to the conclusion that it must have originated from a building where quarried stones were used. This implicates that there are quarries on Roshar where you can get non-stratified rocks, so the continent does not consist of crem deposits only. I guess the farther you look east the easier you can get to base rock originating from the creation of Roshar. Because Lighteyes use possibly expensive quarried monochromous (white) rocks from special deposits in their buildings. Or just soulcast stuff like barracks.

Committing a genocide. Sure, great solution. I would call that a victory for Odium.

What I wanted to say is that striated rocks on Roshar should be quite usual opposed to a rare feature. I am the last to suggest not to speculate about minute details. If those descriptions help you form a theory on how Urithiru was built and from where on Roshar different layers originated, go for it! I interpreted the descriptions of Urithiru that it was not built from separate rocks but somehow carved into or grown from the mountain itself. A wall consisting of bricks or rocks would not display grand patterns of swirling or other continuous strata but would be a mix of many patterns, or even oriented so that the surface consists of a monochromatic layer. Of all the description of layers shows that Urithiru has not been soulcast, since soulcast rock is bland and only grey. If I recall correctly, the rock of the chasms has been also described as layered strata of different colours. I have to look that up later, though. My time for browsing the forum is up now, unfortunately.

The question that still arises is, how do Progression and Lightweaving combine to give visions of the future? Is this the Truthwatcher resonance, or something else entirely? I don't see Renarin as Odium's champion either. Something still feels off with him. It probably is just his "odd" behaviour and the lack off him surgebinding at all (as far as we can judge). Also the lack of Glys appearing is quite suspicious. If he/she is as shy as Renarin, this is no wonder, though. On the other hand, one or two of the Unmade might have found another victim to influence. It must be very subtle, since the Stormfather does not react to Renarin in any strange or hostile way. They are both at the wedding and the presence of a voidspren should not have gone unnoticed. Syl being freaked out in WoR I attribute to the presence of voidspren in the Highstorms predating the summoning of the Everstorm, so her statement that seeing the future is of Odium cannot be taking at face value. She is just jumpy and scared. Cultivation could be involved instead.

Capturing is exactly what Parshendi do to assume their forms (compare with the Prologue, where Eshonai sees the fabrial and draws parallels to how Parshendi take their forms).

So, here are my comments on 13 pages. Uff... Or he just comes after his mother. I definitely would not like this situation. And really, one baby in a Death Rattle and Kaladin getting a little brother. It would not be the only newborn on Roshar. And I didn't see anyone trying to shave Oroden, where the knife could slip. I totally agree. I didn't read her as a mature and independent woman some others did, but as the spoiled girl who tried to influence Kaladin to pick up the spear to win a shardblade grown up. I guess there is both in her, and the fact that Syl likes her indicates that she is not too bad. I stay true to my promise form last week: I shout "Vivenna!" - she hides in Hearthstone to ... well I've still not found a reason yet. I don't understand the fuss people make about strata in rocks. Roshar is shaped and formed by crem desposits from Highstorms. The whole continent shifts slowly westwards, since material is eroded in the east and deposited in the west. The crem layers slowly solidify to rock with natural strata. Mountains have to be folded up (so Roshar cannot be totally tectonically inert) which would result in curved strata. There are open ruins, even quite sheltered ones - for example the ones Adolin cut into. People would be quite stupid if they stayed in the open during a Highstorm or the returning Everstorm. Kaladin carrying Shallan in a close grip to the next mountain peak. How romantic - please not! Would be a bit early, wouldn't it? Take a cookie for this one. I ran out of upvotes long ago... You can enter if you use a proxy from the US. It interferes with commenting here, though. Now we know why the Radiants of Old charged for passage through Urithiru, as we know from the epigraphs in WoR. Somehow the cost in Stormlight has to be brought in again. Bearing the first autumn storm outside right now I get just a little bit envious. Nearly makes me want to skip your posting I think you are underestimating Adolin here. He will have stress, he won't be able to keep his secret from Shallan, Renarin probably already knows. But he won't run blindly into the trap. He might not be brilliant, but he is not stupid either. And as Taravangian said in WoR: You underestimate the average mind. His reputation of being guileless will also help him, for a while at least - and perhaps Shallan will be helpful, too. I would call it normal healing rate. Ok, no proto radiancy - but also no indication that something stops him from healing properly. A broken wrist takes how long to heal? About four to six weeks I think, if it is properly treated. And Adolin does a lot, being careful with his broken wrist is not among those things. If the wrist was disturbed after first treatment, it could be that the bones don't heal properly and then it would also hurt after a week. I agree. I guess the Honorblade is put away somewhere safe (Little Herdaz, perhaps?). And what is not to be forgotten: The Honorblade uses dangerous amounts of Stormlight, Stormlight that is already a valueable resource. To use the Honorblade at this time would be an unresponsible waste, no matter who got it. That deserves a reread of the epigraphs. Wait a second. Nope, Eshonai does not fit. Do Listeners even write books? All we know of is orally handed down songs. Then women adressed who read it point to Vorin culture, also the term Shadesmar is a human one, isn't it? Eshonai in her youth was all about exploring, not about writing books. Nice reasoning. Take a cookie - still out of upvotes. Shallan finding out Adolin and helping him - yes I could warm up to this idea.

So, the spren is back. 13 pages of comments in one night? It's getting insane. So, I will write my thoughts on the new three chapters before reading/skimming this thread. Did I mention, this is insane... Chapter 7: Kaladin really has embraced his KR status, he even feels ashamed to have punched the rather diminutive Roshone. The resolution was quite anticipated in the discussion last week, just it was't an "or" but an "and" of the speculations. Shardblade beats brands, no writ needed at all...Finally Kaladin stands up to his father and says that he is NOT a surgeon but a Watcher at the Rim. Parshmen in Hearthstone. They were locked in, but the shelter was damaged by the Everstorm so they could transform. I wonder whether there were in fact deliberate gusts of wind to set them free. This does not bode well for the parshmen population, they will be voidbringers quite soon. About spanreeds: We had some discussions about them last week, now we have at least some answers. Hearthstone is not too far off to have them, they have quite many. Even some to the hub in Tashikk, one of those is finally used. And spanreeds do need Stormlight to work, no passive conjoining fabrial here, perhaps none anywhere. But: Why the heck does Laral have a spanreed connected to the queen regent in Kholinar - that would be Aesudan, wouldn't it? She was perplexed enough when Kaladin got Navani to the spanreed. Sprenlore: The old spren have four genders. Obviously they were thought of by Parshendi - male, malen, femalen and female spren then. Are those Adonalsium spren only, or also Honor- and Cultivation-spren? Approximately half of Kaladin's spears were female. Poor Kal, would he be able to wield a normal spear again? And Syl as a shardblade doesn't smash into something, keep that in mind folks! Laral: Syl likes her. Well. I don't. She didn't change really from the flashbacks. Still haughty and know-it-all. So good riddance and shall she be happy with Roshone. Welcome to the family, Oroden. Chapters 8&9: And here we have our Shallan chapters, some questions worth of discussion there, I guess there are also the respective threads. Shallan has problems sketching the tower of Urithiru and produces fine surrealistic art. I am not sure whether her problems in drawing result in lack of proper perspective only. We'll see if Brightlord Brooding-Eyes can help her there when he comes back home. We also see a new coping mechanism evolve. Shallan does not want to hate Pattern, so she splits him in her mind. The Blade and the Spren so to speak. Now she can try to only hate the blade and not her adorable companion. I might be a bit biased here... David is back: "...the finery fit this bleak chamber like a lady's havah fit a pig." And then we get the perhaps first shown synergy between Bondsmiths and Lightweavers. Shallan creates a map of Roshar based on the knowledge of the Stormfather after feeling a pull from Dalinar. Interesting possibilities arise with other orders. Might Renarin's visions in WoR also be connected to the then Proto-Bondsmith Dalinar? Did he see more than he would have been able as Truthwatcher alone? Renarin...I start to believe he knows about Adolin killing Sadeas, he sees things. Which brings me right to the copycat murder. Who knows how Sadeas died? I guess it could be anyone who examined the body, especially Ialai. But I don't see any motivation there to kill someone else in the same manner. Except the second victim has close ties to Adolin and it can somehow help to implicate him in Sadeas' murder. To do this, someone has to know already that Adolin killed him. Another possibility is that the second murder is supposed to distract from Sadeas' murder, so it is not seen as a unique thing. Adolin himself would be suspicious, his reaction to the second murder does not fit this though. Then there is Renarin...he could want to help his brother, therefore causing some chaos. Adolin being given the task to examine the murders is highly ironic ;-) Shallan is a bit suspicious of Adolin, but his reputation as being guileless and "deceitful as a newborn" keeps her from drawing conclusions for the moment. I think this is going to change soon. Back to spanreeds. Spanreed communication to Kholinar has stopped working. This could be because of the riots, but honestly, every spanreed not worked because of riots? That would be really serious circumstances in Kholinar. Could an Unmade be responsible instead? Blocking the connection between spanreeds or corrupting the respective spren? And finally, we got the location of the ten, perhaps nine Oathgates: Azimir (formerly Makabakam), Shinovar (exact location unknown)(formerly Shin Kak Nish), Panatham (the capital of Babatharnam)(formerly Sela Tales), Rall Elorim (in the North of Iri)(formerly Iri), Rira (probably Kurth)(formerly Rischir, yes that island belonged to Rischir), Jah Keved (city not mentioned)(formerly Valhav), Thaylen City(formerly Thalath), Stormseat/Narak(formerly Natanatan), Kholinar(formerly Alethela) and one lost in Aimia - the Island that was destroyed (formerly Aimia). How destroyed Amia is, we will probably see later, there was a reading of an Interlude featuring a Soulcaster travelling to Aimia. Didn't look to be totally destroyed there, but it was only a short glimpse of Aimia at the shore. As for the race of thread opening: I guess I will step back next week, no need to make the work of our moderators harder than necessary. Since the links are quite predictable, there could be even more opened threads during one or two seconds. Given good weather, I will be at vine harvest anyways ;-(

I need to go to work in 50 minutes...Now speed reading first ;-)

https://www.tor.com/2017/09/12/oathbringer-by-brandon-sanderson-chapters-7-9/ Happy Reading!

I am not talking about them, I am talking about us. Unfortunately I am not able to worldhop to Roshar to make the measurements myself.

Well, you go to the CR, walk to the end of the planet in the CR, then hop over the gap in the CR to the next planet (that was my idea of worldhopping when I read about it the first time, quite long ago now) I am thinking more of something like quantum entanglement - magically stabilized and enhanced. Oh, another thing... I feel like we are highjacking the thread with theorizing about spanreeds. Perhaps a mod could move our contributions about spanreeds to another thread?

We are still lacking the scale of Roshar (the continent). Since Highstorms are not periodical and lose speed over land, we have to await the passing of the Everstorm, assuming it moves with constant speed. Then we can determine how big the continent is compared to the planet: Compare the time moving over the ocean from New Natanatan-Shinovar to the time it takes to move over the continent. (Of course that is only possible if the Everstorm turns out to appear periodical, and something tells me the focus concerning the Everstorm will not be on the exact timing...)

The polar coordinate system on a rotating planet is an accellerated one, so virtual forces are at work. And how to tell the spanreeds which system to choose? Edit: Also, if you are at the equator and the recieving end is, say 60° north, a given change in azimutal angle will result in a much shorter line at the recieving end, transmissions would be funnily distorted... To fix those distortions, the spren in the spanreeds would have to do some advanced math.

I like the idea very much! The poor spren...we have seen what happens to spren when they sacrifice their investiture to surgebind...screaming spanreeds pop up in my mind.

Spanreeds transmit the movement of writing, being accellerated in the process and gaining own velocities. The problem of the rotating planet I see is not the spanreeds keeping the same distance to each other but that the velocities differ greatly due to that rotation. Easiest situation is sitting on the equator with one spanreed and the second spanreed is also on the equator but on the other side of the world. Then both spanreeds move with opposite velocities to each other - viewed from an "inert frame of reference", say one resting with regard to the Roshar star. The spanreed on the receiving end would be catapulted away quite spectacularly. Spanreeds must have a mechanism to compensate for accellerated frames of reference. Thinking about it for a while and going a bit realmatic, perhaps it is enough on Roshar that the spanreeds are percieved/thought to be resting

He would be the most likely to have one. It probably would be connected to Sadeas' capital, since Hearthstone is in Sadeas' princedom. Hesina might also have just the old fashioned messenger in mind. Spanreeds are not the only method to contact someone, though it's the quickest. Hearthstone using the hub cities probably is unlikely, I have to admit. I forgot that spanreeds are a recent invention. They are handled quite casually in the books so I lost sight of that. Edit: Technical question: How do spanreeds compensate planetary rotation and the differential in velocities of different places? After all you can't use them on a (moving) ship...