ROSHtafARian

Nepene, you keep correcting me about the focuses, and I keep telling you, they're not what I'm talking about. I don't know how I can be any clearer. The focus of magic on Nalthis is the Commands. The form Endowment's direct Investiture takes is Breath. I'm talking about the latter, not the former. They are not the same thing.

Seems unnecessarily complicated. As it stands, Awakening is: Breath + Command + Color Investiture + Focus + Fuel Spiritual + Cognitive + Physical Pretty complete and elegant in its simplicity when broken down that way, I think.

Reviving this, because my thoughts are the same as Nemuri: the Shard on the Silence Divine world is the one that just wants to hide and survive. Any Shard with that Intent would doubtless be pretty sneaky, and it does fit with how Brandon's described the germ based magic of that world. So what if that planet is actually the perfect hiding spot, because its close enough to Roshar that any traces of its Investiture or whatever other power emanates from a Shard is masked by the much more powerful emanations and Investiture happening on Roshar....and its far enough away that its safe from being detected by any other means? Secretion might describe such a shard, as well as the obvious biological implications of that word, it means to conceal for protection. Alternatively, other names for the Silence Divine shard could be Evolution or Adaptation.

Also, I just want to clarify again that I don't believe any longer that the focus of a world's magic system is determined by this theory, but rather the form a Shard's investiture takes on a given planet. So Scadrial --> physical --> metals, Sel -->cognitive-->perceived forms, Nalthis-->spiritual-->Breath. For what its worth, I asked Brandon in a Q and A last year if the Shards were separated into groupings or a classification of some kind. He said 'Good question, RAFO,' which is when I started thinking along these lines. Especially when he later answered someone else that no, the Shards did not separate into four classifications like the Allomantic table. Another thing I noted was he answered this at one point: Which to me seemed to imply that yes, Shards are all paired, but no, not with perfect counterparts. Alternatively, depending on which question he was actually answering first, he could have been saying Endowment has a counterpart, and no, not all shards are paired. I lean towards the former rather than the latter personally.

Fair enough. The vaccuum line wasn't the best analogy. Still, by Shai's definition of the Realms, Ruin and Preservation are still very much primarily Physical, and Endowment is very much pertaining to the soul or the essence. Devotion and Dominion, I argue then, are more cognitive because they rely heavily on parameters set by perception. You're correct in that all Shards need something to apply their Intent to, but Devotion and Dominion are the Shards that require context to that application. Here, let me try a Hypothetical Thought Experiment of Shardic Intent, lol: And I'll use the vaccuum properly this time. Okay. Imagine if you made Ruin and Preservation manifest in human bodies and strip them of all their powers, and stick them in a bubble in the vaccuum of space with just one other person, a random human. Now sit back and watch them act in pursuit of their Intents. They could do that. Ruin would act to ruin or destroy that person and Preservation would act to preserve them, even if all they had to make use of was their own bodies. And its the physical acts that are significant there, because that's how they interact with the world. There are direct, physical interactions they can make with the world that convey their Intents, because their Intents have physical weight and meaning. If you act to preserve something, you take a specific physical action that has meaning in and of itself, that says 'I am trying to preserve this.' While you could take a dozen different actions in pursuit of preserving that person, it makes no difference and needs no context. Each action would be a direct physical manifestation of the intent to preserve, and the subsequent preservation of the person would speak for itself. This is why Ruin and Preservation are Physical Intents, because the physical is the most important part of those Intents. Without taking physical acts to preserve, an innate sense of preservation is meaningless. Without taking physical acts to ruin, no cognitive view or perception of ruin will change anything. Now imagine the same thing with Endowment. It doesn't work the same way, because to act in pursuit of his/her Intent, Endowment needs to bestow something. The physical component of that intent is the act of actually giving or bestowing something on someone...without the thing that's bestowed, the act and the intent have no meaning. Problem is, remember Endowment's in this bubble in the vaccuum of space with just one other person, the recipient of their gift. Meaning, Endowment can only gift the recipient with something that comes directly from them, something innate. This is why Endowment is a Spiritual Intent, because the Spiritual component, that something innate, is the most important part of that Intent. There can be no act of giving or perception of a gift without something to give, meaning that in the absence of anything else to give or anything else to give the perception of having gifted.....in that situation, Endowment's essence, anything and everything that makes it who and what it is, that's the most important part of that Intent.....because to give something, you first have to have something to give. Now imagine Devotion in that bubble, with nothing else but the person you originally placed in there. Strip away everything else. Devotion can't be a Physical Intent, because there's no action she can take that directly conveys the Intent of Devotion. There are a thousand different ways you can show devotion to someone, but there's no action that specifically conveys devotion in and of itself....actions only convey devotion because of the meaning a person has ascribed to those actions in their thoughts. If Ruin strangles the person in his bubble, there's a direct end result that gives meaning and weight to that action, the person dies. If Devotion kneels in her bubble, that act by itself is meaningless. It requires her perception of kneeling as a sign of devotion, or the perception of such by the person she's kneeling to - in order for that act to be in pursuit of her Intent. And Devotion can't be a Spiritual Intent, because it isn't innate, its not a mindless emotion you're born with and aim at everything around you in equal measure. Devotion needs a target, and it doesn't exist without the conscious choice to devote yourself to a person or cause or idea. Its that choice and adherence to that choice that gives your actions weight and meaning. So floating in the void in her bubble with just one other person, Devotion isn't acting in pursuit of her Intent until she and/or the other person perceives that person as the object of her devotion. Same with Dominion. There's no one action that conveys physical dominion over the other person in that bubble, no one action that ends with the ultimate result of him having Dominion over the human, because what does that even mean? Dominion could end up with the person in a stranglehold....but they'll stay in that position until that person interprets that act or position as meaning Dominion has power over him. Similarly, can't be a Spiritual Intent, because manifested in a human body stripped of his powers and stuck in that bubble with nothing else in there but the other human, there's nothing innate in either of them that recognizes Dominion as having power over the other person. With both Devotion and Dominion, the perception of the connection between the person and the Shard is ultimately what conveys the Shard's Intent.

Well as I clarified in my post, I didn't mean the focus of a magic system, but more the form a Shard's Investiture takes in a magic system. Ie metal on Scadrial, forms on Sel and Breath on Nalthis. And as established by the very quote you linked above, we do explicitly know that the various magics are due to the natural state of a world and how it interacts with its Shards. That's what I'm referring to when I speak of part of that natural state possibly being a world having a stronger presence in the Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual realm. Apologies for the confusion if I was unclear. And again, specifics are key in any kind of theorizing. I'm not saying that the Shards are drawn to worlds that fit their magic systems, because that makes the assumption that any of the Shards had a specific magic system or end result to their magic in mind. And we don't have evidence of that. What I'm suggesting is that all worlds exist to some degree or another in all three Realms, just as the Shards do, and that rather than existing equally in all three, both Shards and worlds have a stronger presence in one Realm than in the other two. And as such, Shards are drawn to worlds that have the strongest presence in the Realm they themselves inhabit most fully, as this would enable the Shard to interact with that world most fully. That's all. So perhaps a more strongly Cognitive Shard could settle on a world that had a stronger presence in the Spiritual Realm than in the Cognitive....but that Shard wouldn't be able to interact with that world as fully as he would a world that was most strongly present in the Cognitive Realm, like himself. As for the rest, I personally posit that Devotion would be a Cognitive Intent rather than a Spiritual. Remember, Brandon said he went through a lot of synonyms before settling on Devotion, and kept us guessing as to the exact intent for a long time, because we were close, but not quite there. Most guesses were along the lines of 'Love', and that's what he kept saying wasn't quite right. Devotion isn't Love, explicitly. There's a huge degree of overlap, but the precise word is critical when defining a Shard's Intent. While Love might very well be a Spiritual Intent, Devotion is not, because devotion can not exist in a vaccuum. By its very nature, devotion requires something to be devoted to. Even used in the most generic sense, you are devoted to a cause, a principle or a person, you are not simply devoted. Same with Dominion. Dominion requires something to have dominion over, and the second you introduce someone else into the equation of an intent, you require thought to direct your intent and define its parameters. Further, I would argue this is why Odium and Devotion are not perfect parallels. Brandon has said that many of the Shards parallel others in some respects, but Ruin and Preservation are the only perfect pair. This is because Odium and Devotion are not Love and Hate, which would be opposite ends of the spectrum, they're Odium and Devotion: Directionless hate and directed love. Odium I believe is a Spiritual Intent, innate and unreasoning hate that requires no cognition or focus, unlike Devotion. Obviously there is overlap in all intents, because we know that the Shards have a Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual aspect. They all exist in all three realms to some degree or another, and so do their Intents. But I would argue that Physical Intents are those that directly affect the Physical world, like Ruin and Preservation. Spiritual Intents are those that are innate and of the spirit, ie they exist regardless of anything else, like Endowment, which literally means a quality, talent, etc. If you have an Endowment, its something you were gifted with, its not a result of something you did externally. And finally Cognitive Intents would be those that require a direction, they're all about the individual's interaction with everything and everyone around them. And again, no Shard exists solely in one Realm, so of course Allomancy and Feruchemy have Cognitive and Spiritual components and effects as well, just as all the magic systems do. But of all the magic systems thus far, Allomancy and Feruchemy is still the most quantifiable and measurable of them, because it is so strongly Physical. The region based magics of Sel are the most fluid and complex because they're so strongly Cognitive, and I do not think its a coincidence that Nalthis, which would be the most strongly Spiritual in its magic, is the only example we have thus far of human magics deliberately creating an object with sentience and its own innate Intent. (I exclude Roshar from all this of course because there's still way too much we don't know about how its magic works to fuel speculation along these lines. By most accounts, we've not even yet seen a third of the thirty magic systems Brandon's mentioned it contains, so...nuff said). Too long, didn't read version: To use a real world parallel, think of the three natural states of matter (well, there are more than three, but I lack a better analogy). There are gas giants, or predominantly gaseous worlds. There are worlds that are predominantly liquid, methane oceans, etc. And there are worlds that are predominantly rock. Our own world exists in all three states, with a rocky crust, liquid oceans and gaseous atmosphere, all of which are necessary for life, but they are not equal. If in the three natural stages of magic in the cosmere, the natural state of a planet is mostly Physical, all Shardic interactions with that world will manifest as Physical Investiture, and the most interactions will be available to Shards with Physical Intents.

True, but I'd just like to clarify that I was not positing Elantrians or their magic would ever have an influence over the stars themselves. Rather, that with sufficient knowledge, or as their understanding of the wider nature of the universe and their relationship deepens, perhaps Elantrians could come to use constellations and star patterns as the basis for their Aons instead of the shape of Arelon. For instance, to make a real world parallel, Elantris takes place during a slightly past medieval-Earth technological stage. Around that time on Earth, most cultures were convinced that the Earth was flat, it was the center of the universe, and most people had a perception of their own nation as the center of the world itself. Their understanding of the universe had a limited scope, which shaped their perceptions and interaction with the rest of the world. My point is, it seems Elantrians at the times we've seen thus far have a similarly limited scope to their understanding of the universe....and this seems to shape their magic as well as their perceptions. Brandon's said numerous times that by the time most later stories occur in the cosmere, people on Sel have the most advanced understanding of the cosmere relative to people of other worlds. My random, 'not even quite a theory' idea here is that as the people of Sel's awareness of the universe beyond their world grows, this mass shift in the perception of its populations as to their place in the universe could lead to a shift in their magic. Its one thing to use symbols of your land to manipulate the Dor when you collectively believe your land is the center of creation and/or the most important shape in creation. But when you're aware that your land is just one little nation on one little world in a universe with billions of stars, suddenly that shape might no longer have the cognitive significance or power that it once did. And indeed, perhaps the shapes of star patterns or your relative position in the universe on that scale might come to take its place as the key to accessing the Dor. I'm not calling this a theory because I think we have far too little information at this stage to even speculate that this is really a direction Brandon is going with Elantrian magic, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did develop along similar lines given what we do know at this point.

Fire away, Senor Feesh! If I'm on the right track, it'll hold up to scrutiny. If it doesn't, I'm not, so it hardly matters. Right, and all of that would be factored in obviously, but I don't think any of that inherently contradicts what I'm saying. We've known for awhile that the focus of a magic is due to the Shard's interaction with a planet. What I'm saying is this would just be one more variable in determining that. Basically, my theory is that Scadrial is a planet rooted most strongly in the Physical Realm, with very little Cognitive and Spiritual Realm overlap, compared to other planets. This then, would be part of what determines that the focus of the magic will be physical, that the various Shards' interaction with the planet's natural state would result in physical focused magic, with metals forming from various Shards' investiture in it. Actually, let me correct myself. I don't believe that the focus is reflective of whatever Realm the shardworld and Shard have the strongest presence in....I believe the form of a Shard's investiture in a planet and its magic is reflective of this. On Scadrial, that investiture is present in metals, or the Physical. On Sel, that investiture is present in shapes formed by conscious thought: Aons, soul stamps, bone formations, the shapes or positions of the body in a dance, representations of regions as defined by man-made or perceived boundaries: the Cognitive. On Nalthis, that investiture is present in Breath, the Spiritual. (Perhaps my wording is still wrong here, its tricky to define precisely given what we know at this stage, but I believe most of you understand what I'm suggesting here.) Most simply stated: The natural state of Scadrial is predominantly Physical....thus resulting in physical manifestations of the investiture by various Shards' interaction with it, and appealing most strongly to Shards who's nature/influence is predominantly Physical, a key factor in Ruin and Preservation 'settling' there, By contrast, Nalthis has a stronger presence in the Spiritual Realm, thus spiritual manifestations of investiture result from Shardic interactions there. Were other Shards to interact with Nalthis, at least significantly enough to invest portions of themselves there, these investitures would manifest as something akin to Breath. Similarly, Sel, more strongly Cognitive than the other two worlds manifests investiture in Cognitive displays. As for your other points Nepene, I don't believe those quotes contradict my (admittedly rough and barebones) theory in and of themselves. The critical component of the Sazed point I believe is when Brandon says this: There are things Sazed does not have power over. This does nothing to say that all Shards are limited in the same ways, and indeed, that's exactly what I'm getting at here. That Sazed holds two Shards, but they're Shards with Physical Intent. That's where most of his power lies, I believe, and there will always be things Shards of Cognitive or Spiritual Intent will be better at, or will have power over, while he can manipulate the Physical Realm in ways they can not. And Brandon's extrapolation of that quote would seem to indicate its more a matter of degree....he hints there are ways Sazed could eventually bring Vin and Elend back, if he became skilled or knowledgeable enough. So perhaps its more accurate to say that while all the Shards are inherently capable of the same things, some are better at some things than others, depending on which Realm their influence lies in most strongly. In fact, Honor's line about Cultivation being better at seeing the future than he would seem to indicate this as well. And as for the quote about travel in Shadesmar being dangerous as a result of Odium's trip to Sel, you'll note that I mentioned the pecularities of travel in Shadesmar around Sel, first and foremost. I don't have the quote handy, but I believe I've seen discussion about a quote of Brandon's where he mentioned that Shadesmar has always been tricky to navigate around Shadesmar, even before Odium came to Sel. That quote about the mindless power he left in his wake there explains why its more dangerous to travel there now, but doesn't address why Shadesmar has always had a seemingly different relationship with Sel than the other Shardworlds we've seen thus far.

Something I've been mulling over for awhile and have posited in smaller, less concrete thoughts - we know all the Shards have a physical, cognitive and spiritual aspect, and they and their power are distributed across all three Realms. But are all of them distributed equally? For instance, is it possible some Shards have a stronger presence and influence in the Physical realm, while others have stronger influence in the Spiritual? We've posited that not every magic system's focus is necessarily physical, could this be part of it? For instance, Ruin and Preservation had very strong physical presences and influence. Their magic systems all had a physical focus (the physical molecular structure of metals), and their physical bodies were a major part of those magic systems with Lerasium and atium and the effects of those. Most uses of their power involved manipulation of the Physical realm or had effects confined to the Physical. By extension, Sazed after taking up both shards makes reference to being able to repair Vin and Elend's bodies, but not bring back their souls. That they went somewhere he couldn't reach, but perhaps with time he'd get better at such things, etc. Then contrast that with Endowment and the magic of Nalthis, in which the Spiritual (Breath) is a much more integral part of the magic. Similarly, that which seems problematic for Sazed (restoring souls to life) is a common occurrence for Endowment, and Lightsong speaks of seeing a wave of coruscating light after he dies, from beyond which a voice speaks to him. To me, this intimates that perhaps Endowment and his/her influence is rooted more in the Spiritual realm. Likewise, given the peculiarities of travel in Shadesmar around Sel, and the strong Cognitive component to its many region based magics, perhaps Devotion and Dominion are more strongly rooted in the Cognitive Realm. From a certain perspective, this also matches the Shards' various Intents. Ruin and Preservation are more Physical things, they're more natural parts of the physical universe, having to do with entropy, etc. Devotion and Dominion are more Cognitive Intents, they're Intents that have very little meaning without sentient minds to perceive them. All things with Physical form are beholden to the influence of Ruin and Preservation, but the Physical form of a rock has no Devotion to the land it comes from or the forces it interacts with. That requires a mind to comprehend that Intent, let alone to adhere to it or be affected by it. And then of course Endowment speaks of natural or innate qualities, talents, or abilities, things that are not inherently physical, but are inherent, regardless of Cognitive function, thus implying Endowment is more Spiritual. I further posit that how a Shard's presence and influence is divided between the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual realms has to do with their criteria in selecting which planet to settle. Brandon has said that they have some control over where they ended up, but not total. My suspicion is that like the Shards themselves, not all Shardworlds inhabit all three Realms equally. All worlds have a Physical form of course, but perhaps some inhabit the Cognitive Realm more than others, thus making Shadesmar easier (or more dangerous, hard to say at this point) to enter, or some might be more in sync with the Spiritual realm. Thus Shards like Endowment with a stronger Spiritual presence might have gravitated towards Nalthis due to it inhabiting the Spiritual Realm more fully than say, Scadrial. Thus giving it more influence. Does any of that make sense to anyone else?

I might be wrong, but I believe we have the Word of Brandon that Endowment is the only Shard on Nalthis, at least as of the time Warbreaker takes place. Regardless, to endow something is to equip or supply it with a talent, ability or quality, so bestowing new life or a second chance on a person fits perfectly in with Endowment's Intent. I see nothing inherent in the act of Returning that would require another shard's influence.

I'm confused as to where you think I'm confused. What you're saying is exactly what I was saying.

Quick question: What's the basis for people assuming Skai and Aona were working well together? All references to Skai make it seem like he wasn't the nicest guy, and the Skaze are referred to as evil Seons, so he doesn't seem to be the most likely person for Aona to get along with. Is the shared nature of the Dor what people are using to assume there was cooperation between the two Shards, or is there a quote somewhere about the two of them I'm missing?

What I mean is, why Sel, specifically? We know that he's one of the three Shards who have been present on Roshar. That doesn't mean its 'his' shardworld in the sense that Sel was Aona and Skai's or Scadrial was Leras and Ati's, but he clearly has enough of a history on Roshar that his direct conflict with Honor at least makes perfect sense. And yes, we know that he hates everything, and would likely love to see every Shard other than his own splintered and rendered powerless against him. But so far, we only have knowledge of him traveling to one other Shardworld and in the process killing its Shardholders and splintering their Shards. So why Sel? We've spent a lot of time discussing how Odium Splintered Aona and Skai and what exactly that means, but what I want to know is was there a reason he went after them, specifically? Why not Nalthis, or Scadrial? Were Aona and Skai more of a threat to him, somehow? Devotion is about as far from Odium's Intent as it gets, so was she his real target, and he just figured might as well take out Skai while I'm here? Was Odium aware of how Preservation had imprisoned Ruin, and diminished himself in the process, so figured they were already less of a threat to him? Nalthis only has one Shard to our knowledge, why not take out him/her before targetting a world with two Shards? Obviously we don't have a ton to go on yet as far as Odium's specific motivations go, but I just felt this was a question we should be asking. Out of the nine other Shardworlds besides Roshar, was there a reason Odium went to Sel first? Of course, that begs the followup questions: DID Odium go to Sel first? Or has he already been to other as yet unnamed Shardworlds and taken out their Shards too? Silence Divine's planet is in the same solar system as Roshar, did he stop over there on his way to Sel and Splinter its Shard(s)?

True, but this is the cosmere, where what people expect to see actually does have power, or at least an effect. Totally random, baseless conjecture here, not because I actually believe it but just because its fun to speculate wildly at times: What if say, a large enough population's shared perception of constellations as aons could lead sufficiently advanced Elantrians to form an expontentially magnified version of the aon that powers Elantris? Worldhopping via Shadesmar is dangerous on Sel, so inevitably Elantrians at least will explore other avenues to get off their planet as their society, magic and technology advance. What if constellations as aons leads to interstellar travel just as cadmium/bendalloy alloys lead to FTL technology for Scadrial? Could also allow Galladon to use aons on Roshar. Instead of Elantrians being limited by their distance from Elantris, they'd now be limited by how the constellations were perceived wherever they were, or having to be in the right time/place for them to perceive the right constellation in just the right way.... I dunno. Like I said, I'm not actually theorizing that so much as wildly speculating along those lines. Could be fun though, and I could see it making a certain realmatic kind of sense with the right spin....

Forgery as the cosmere equivalent of Schrodinger's Cat, huh? Hmmm. Must think on this.

I always had a random thought about the -ium suffix to Adonalsium - what if Adonalsium isn't actually the name of the power of Creation, just like atium isn't actually the name of Ati, the power of Ruin? Using atium and lerasium as an example, except for those who interacted with the Shards directly, even the people on Scadrial most knowledgable about the god metals and their significance to the central powers of their world still didn't know to call the source of those powers Ati and Leras. Could be we have the name of the actual power/entity wrong, and Adonalsium is simply all the cosmere characters know to refer to it by, being the name of the part of it that interacted with the physical realm?

Wasn't there a quote from Brandon that said all the Shardholders were characters we'd see in the main Dragonsteel series? Maybe he just said Dragonsteel, period, which means he could have meant the Liar of Partinel duology, pre-Shattering, but I could of sworn he was talking about the five book sequence. Which I always took to mean that series would be set vastly before the rest of the cosmere books, and was the main basis for me thinking the Shards were all still present on Yolen post-Shattering, and they only left for other Shardworlds later, most likely at the end of that series.

To be fair, we only know that the Shards aren't on Yolen NOW. There's nothing to say they weren't still on Yolen after the Shattering, and only moved on to other worlds later. (For that matter, I don't believe we have word one way or another on whether any Shards remain on Yolen. Yolen was named by Brandon as one of the ten core Shardworlds, and though 'shardworld' could just be his catch-all term to worlds related to the ongoing saga of the Shards, there could very well still be one or two Shards remaining on Yolen).

I think its something that was in the vault. The mentions of the vault are placed very deliberately, and I think, significantly. After Steelheart enters the scene, the vault is mentioned three times.

I don't have my copy of WoK handy, but from what I remember of the relevant epigraph, the phrasing went something like 'Aona and Skai are dead, and that which they held has been Splintered.' Correct? For some reason my instinctual reading of it was always that Odium killed Aona and Skai, and the Splintering occurred after their deaths. Is it possible that Splintering might occur naturally if there's no one around to take up the Shard, and hold it together, in a sense? Like, a cognitive or physical aspect is needed to keep the spiritual essence of a shard coherent, and if too long passes without someone taking that Shard up, it starts to fragment into smaller pieces?

If this is true, then Shards, including Odium, would be unable to see waveforms, correct? The fact that the Alethi script was designed to look like waveforms could then be an attempt to blind Odium to their communications, similar to the prophecies inscribed on metal on Scadrial and the color-dot script used by priests on Nalthis.

Hoid was uninterested in taking up the power in the Well of Ascension, at least in the state it was in. If Hoid were interested in taking up the power of a Shard, which one would be his most likely pick?

Do we know that though? That's my point. Unlike the Returned, which are essentially a human with its own cognitive aspect + a divine breath/splinter, we don't know yet how exactly a Seon is created and what all its made of. So it COULD be the Splinter at its heart that is sentient, or it could derive its sapience from some other aspect of it.

Right, but we don't know enough yet to know if a Seon's sentience is due to the splinter/aon at its heart, or something else. Whereas we know the Divine Breaths don't have any sentience of their own, as far as we can see.

One problem is we don't know that Sentience is an attribute of splinters. The Divine Breaths that fuel Returned don't seem to carry any inherent sentience of their own, at least not comparable to Seons.