Aether

3 hours ago, Shadowmancer said:

I'm almost 90% sure Tien was a proto-Radiant, and the Ghostbloods very well could have targeted him, since they had a way to get Heleran into the enemy army. As to which order, I'd say either Lightweaver or someone sharing a Surge with them, since Kal says that Shallan reminds him of someone who had the ability to lift his darkness (and I'm inclined to regard any phenomenon as magical in Sanderson's works).

Tien died likely way before Heleran showed up.

13 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I would say it's likely we've put a bit too much weight on the actual Words and not the meaning behind them. With the Windrunners, we have suffering oaths that also seem to follow a similar structural pattern:

1. Universal Ideal. L>d, s>w, j>d.
2. Ideal of Protection. Who will the Knight defend?
3. Ideal of Emotion. The Knight will protect despite their current emotional state.
4. ??
5. ??

I have a personal theory that the Words matter even less than this. If the spren agrees to the oath, then it's a level up for the Radiant. This is why it was important for Ishar to make all surgebinders (and spren) agree to a codified set of rules. Otherwise, you'd have surgebinders swearing some pretty inane oaths (e.g. "Sure, I only eat chouta on days that end in 'y' ... Thanks for the armor, naco!").

It seems to me that the Fourth ideal is VERY heavily hinted at being the "Ideal of Triage" or something. The Ideal of chosing whom to protect after some utilitarian fashion or something, because it is impossible to save everyone. And that is why Kaladin couldn't say the Fourth one. He cannot fathom not trying to save everyone.

23 hours ago, Kurkistan said:

The Song of Wars (55th stanza), for reference, as I was thinking of it too but didn't think to quote it:

They blame our people
For the loss of that land
The city that once covered it
Did range the eastern strand.
The power made known in the tomes of our clan
Our gods were not who shattered these plains

The more we go on into this series, the more confusing the relationships between the gods (Odium/Honour/Cultivation) and the humans/Singers become. It seems clear now that Odium was the original human god, then they switched him out at some point. But when? And when did the ancient Singers ally with him? The Singers refer to "their gods", but that could refer to the Fused, Odium, Odiumspren or perhaps even the Unmade? And given that Honour and Cultivation seem to have been there with the Singers before Odium and humans arrived, the gods of the Singers might sometimes refer to them too?

In the specific passage you're quoting, Kurk (Hi! btw), I believe the point they're making is that humans did this to themselves.

10 hours ago, Shoots said:

I agree with the theory that the KR shattered the land (maybe with division).  I would like to take this theory a step further and say making the shattered plains was a huge contribution to the recreance.  

Going into Oathbringer, the mystery I was most eager to find an answer for was what caused the Recreance.    I was thrilled when I found out the answer would be revealed in this book.  But when I finally read the cause my reaction was like "Really? Is that really enough to cause all the knights to break their oaths?"  While having the power to destroy to the world is a huge concern, it is also very controversial as seen in our world in debates over gun laws and nuclear weapon restrictions.  While I can see some Radiants saying, "no one should have the power to destroy the world," I imagine other Radiants replying "But we'll use our powers wisely as we have done for hundreds of years."  The argument so far doesn't seem strong enough to convince everyone in 9 orders to break their oaths and kill their spren.  I feel like something more is needed, even more than Honor's rantings at the end of his days.  What could really change the minds of many Radiants is a terrible demonstration of their powers such as destroying a whole country.  Now the argument changes from "we need to break our oaths because otherwise we might break the world" to "we need to break our oaths because we are breaking the world."

But then again, what happened at Stormseat seems to have been orders of magnitude more powerful than anything else we see traces of on the continent. Cities seems to have been made with division, true, but the shattered plains seem to be roughly the size of a Denmark, or something.

What titbits we got in OB leads me to believe that the Recreance happened based on at least partial misunderstandings. That Humans are the original voidbringers seems correct. That they used surgebinding to destroy their original home seems correct, but in my opinion based on confused linguistics. Chicken refers to every bird. Horse to a wide variety of four-hoofed animals. I think surgebinding might be understood as "magics" and might not refer to what the KR are doing at all.

I think that the Oaths Ishar made them swear were aimed at enforcing a "level cap" on the powers, and I don't think a KR can get to the power-level of what happened at Stormseat without a serious bypass. Personally, I think that the "Dawnshards" - whatever that is - seems to be something capable of this, and might be what they tested out at Stormseat, or something.

I'd like to note that - while I think the original KR might have been wrong in assuming they might destroy Roshar - I am not so convinced that the current ones are above that danger. When Dalinar ascended as a Bondsmith in OB, he did something that Stormfather said has never happened before, and it seriously overpowered the local KR (atleast as compared to their current number of oaths). Whatever was limiting the powers of the ancient KR might not be as effective as it once was.

Interesting. You make a convincing argument for that Death Rattle being about the Battle of Narak. But if I'm not wrong, chronologically, that Death Rattle is uttered before the battle, right? Which would then mean that the Death Rattles are clairvoyant. Interesting.

But then again, this might already be well known. I'm really not up to date on current fan theories.

On 12.8.2017 at 6:05 PM, Fatling said:

Sorry I'm cutting out most of your stuff out of the quote boxes to avoid mile lomg posts. So this discussion of background characters is making me think about Hoid. So far our exposure to him has been him popping up, making witty or mysterious remarks, or maybe doing something weird, and then disappearing again. I feel like writing Hoid as a major viewpoint character (will he be one in Oathbringer? Do we know? I know he will be in later books) could pose a considerable challenge, because he has to have some depth to him, but at the same time he has to be presented in a way that will let Brandon unfold all the mysteries of the cosmere little by little, even though Hoid knows so much. As a major viewpoint character he won't be able to just pop up and then disappear again. He'll have move beyond just being witty and mysterious all the time. Of course I'm sure the great wizard Brandon will amaze us once again, but how?

Sorry for jumping in an quoting a rather old post, but I'm ever so slightly drunk and binge reading. So.

Anyway. I disagree about using Hoid as an comparison to Lopen and Minons etc. He has his very funny and quirky moments, yes, but Hoid is not a comic relief character. In my personal opinion, Hoid might be one of the most brilliant characters Brandon has written as of tWoK and beyond (he really only had small and insignificant cameos before, nothing to write home about). He reads like a character who puts up a very witty and funny front, but you don't have to dig deep before you understand that it is exactly that - a front.

Though we will likely not see any real PoV chapter from him just yet (the epilogues of Stormlight Archive don't really count), I think Hoid will work really well when we finally get proper PoV chapters from him. Even in the few chapters he has more of a role than just a cameo, he already reads as more than just comic relief. He has a real personality that goes beyond the front he puts up. The way he is written hints towards more than just a person in the know, but also a fully fleshed out character. A character to a much greater extent than Lopen or Rock or Minons.

Brandon really puts a lot of work and thought into making his worldbuilding work on a physics level (more or less). Take a look at all the s**t he did to make his idea of Bridge-crews work in SA (short version: gravity on Roshar had to be 0.6 of Earth gravity to make it work).

And where he does use magic to make things work, it is within the ruleset of his Cosmere metaphysics.

Say what you want about his books, but the dude's work-ethic and worldbuilding-ethics (if that is even a word) are impressive !

8 hours ago, Fatling said:

That's true, that's true. Like Lopen is a popular character, but Brandon has indicated that he will probably never play anything more than a minor role.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, though. Some characters (particularly of the "comic relief" variety) work best when they are in the background, only used as a contrast to whatever the film or book is supposed to be about. Consider the minions from Despicable Me and how poorly they worked in their own movie when the whole bloody thing was about their rather stupid shenanigans. They were cute in small doses.

I am not saying that Lopen would not if given a larger role, but as he is now (ditzy and FUN! primarily), he would likely have a disrupting and distracting effect on the narrative.

You make some very good points here, @maxal. Consider me convinced. Let's raise our pitchforks and torches together if Adolin ever disappears for an entire book !

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON
It actually trans-- It does a-- matter, energy, investiture are the same things in the cosmere. You have some sort of transfer happening relating to those things.

O_o! Interesting. I was not aware of this WoB (GODS I am out of the loop).

It does have a rather specific effect, then. Disregard what I suggested, then. Unless we count this within my aforementioned "fonkiness".

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. If aluminum were simply cutting of access, it would stop the ability to burn metals, and/or neutralize any effects they produce. 

The fact that it actually burns away the metals themselves, not just investiture effects shows an actual investiture output from Preservation.

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but does it actually burn them away? Duralumin does make you burn whatever you're currently burning away in an instance. But from what I remember about the passages where Vin burns aluminium, does the metals just... disappear? Metals around whomever is burning the aluminium doesn't get thrown away, no emotions are affected, the metals are just purged.

There is definitely something fonky going on, and the specific mechanics of this I am unsure of. I might be wrong on the details, but what I am trying to suggest is that we might not need to account for aluminium's role in Allomancy when it comes to its broader Realmatic effects (or lack there-of). It's strange behaviour in Allomancy might be accounted for by the fonkiness of the metal itself (whatever that fonkiness might be exactly).

Remember that the metals are not Investiture themselves (well, they are, but locked in physical form, just as everything is), but the key needed to access the power of Preservation. I think we are allowed a free-pass on aluminum as a "burnable" metal in that I think burning it more or less (instantaneously, but temporarily) storms up your connection to preservation and purges the rest of your metals (/keys).

Not exactly a very refined theory, but what I am trying to say is that the peculiar nature of aluminum in general might in-and-of-itself account for what it does Allomantically.

That's not to say that a character's role cannot be minimised for an entire book. Jasnah was a personal favourite amongst the secondary characters of tWoK (she had more or less just a large role as Adolin in the first book, although she had less of an active role), and I was looking forward to seeing how she developed in WoR. We did get a few nice chapters with her, but then she disappeared for 90% of the book, only to return in the epilogue.

Not that I was mad. Shallan needed to lose her mentor for the mono-myth thing to make its course. It felt natural, and I was tricked (in a positive sense) into letting one of my favourites be away for more or less an entire book.

I am not sure that aluminum could not have a spiritual aspect, considering Brandon's worldbuilding. Because the Spiritual Realm contains the Essences of what an object is, I can only see two ways that aluminum could be worked in:

1. Aluminum is somehow spiritually "locked" in that the application of Investiture cannot (in any way) change the metal. It remains the same, except for more mundane applications of change (such as melting it down, forging it (not in the tES way), etc.).
2. Aluminum is somehow lack of essence, and because of that, the lack of everything (because without a spiritual essence, how could it have a cognitive or physical aspect?. Aluminum is somehow a physical thing, yes, but it is more the lack of things - emptiness - rather than anything concrete.

On 4.8.2017 at 0:33 AM, Dunkum said:

I'm finally at the point where I can handle them on the fly, so long as I start out with a decent amount of health and at least a couple of the champion abilities charged up.  but the first few I managed to beat I went in there packed to the gills with tough and hearty foods

Lynel's ARE your friends when it come to learning the higher mechanics of the game. Get max faeries, have the Goron ability and Mipha's Grace ready, your best armour on and go and NOT kill a Lynel. Practise dodging and shield parrying. Practise using fire (or the Lynel's fire) to get into the air to use time-dilation to hit it easily in the face.

Specifically, watch for the tell-tale signs of horizontal and vertical attacks, and practise reacting to them with good timing so you activate flurry rush. Oh, and even a Lynel's charge can be flurry rushed if you jump to the side.

This has been today's unrequested lesson in "gitting good".

10 minutes ago, Flash said:

And @Aether, I'm better at remembering WoB's than I am finding them. That's why I'm looking forward to the new WoB archive so much.

The problem is that memory can be faulty, and even when not, it is difficult for others to know whether provided information is correct or not without the sources. I am not suggesting that we abide by a strict and exhaustive sourcing standard, but I do ask for people to at least try to hunt down the sources. And when difficult, PMs or even just requests as a part of the post is fine too. I do believe we should aspire to a certain (liberal) standard, at least in such a heavy forum as "Cosmere Theories".

2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It is interesting that he mentions that it punctures realms in all that he has shown it appears more like a tunnel rather than a rip in the realms.

*glassy eyes, dreamy voice* What is a tunnel, but a rip into something else?

Seriously, though, I don't see why they need look or be that different.

1 minute ago, Drake Marshall said:

Oh, yeah. Sorry for jumping in after you. First come first serve ^^

3 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I call upon the powers of the nightwatcher to fulfill my boon. I wish to know the meaning of life.

You succumb to the existential despair of the truth. There is no meaning of life. There is no purpose to your existence. People and things just are without any inherent purpose or value.

You wish to kill yourself, but if there is not point to anything, what would be the point of that?

I wish for a bandana. Just a bandana.

26 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I call upon the powers of the nightwatcher to fulfill my boon. I wish to be the supreme master over all of creation.

Cool. You are now the supreme figure-head of all of creation. You know all of the inner workings, but you can only really attend official functions and without any real power.

I wish for Omniscience.

I've previously thought that the Three Realms best could be explained by Spiritual "input" turned into Physical "output" by a Cognitive "filter". The Spiritual Realm contains the essence of things (Platonic Ideals), which is filtered through the Cognitive Realm (how it is interpreted) and thus takes upon a physical from in the Material Realm.

Problem is that this model only explain the superficial relationship between the Realms, because there is a definite feedback-loop spanning all three of the Realms. Cognitive Identity takes on a life of is own by how it is viewed in the Material Realm, but that Identity can then also start to interpret itself, which can give consequences on how it appears in the physical. And the Spiritual Realm contains the essences of things, but also the connections between things (bonds between persons, objects and whatnot), and is thus by necessity informed by the Cognitive and Material Realms both.

And then there the fact that you can pass between at least two of the Realms under certain circumstances, such as entering Shadesmare in physical form fully.

So your three sheet model does fit better, but it is nothing new around these fora, I am afraid  have to point out.

4 hours ago, Flash said:

Second, Kaladins dramatic oaths. Someone asked at some point why (in world, for writing purposes it's for a Climax) Kaladin always bursts alight when he does his oaths, unlike the other radiants. The fact is, most of the other Radiants have constantly progressed towards their oaths. Kaladin, on the other hand, recedes during WoR and WoK. Then, suddenly, he makes the decision to follow his oaths, and snap! He bursts alight dramatically. Now in my picture of realmatics, I describe it like this. The oaths that bring the realms together are fading, therefore Syl isn't able to manifest or think as well, and his abilities recede. Then, he changes and suddenly his oaths are much stronger, snapping the realms much closer together. Ergo, investiture suddenly flows to him, and he becomes significantly more invested. Now I'm going to make some speculation. Normal people aren't invested enough (aren't making enough of a dent in the realms) to use investiture. But people who are invested make enough of a dent to suck in investiture. By this method, Vasher should be able to suck in stormlight, because he's invested with breaths. I also think that a misting actively burning their metal might be able to make enough of a dent to ingest Stormlight.

I've come to think upon Kalladin's bursts as something akin to what Raoden experienced the first time he was able to properly write that fire rune. A huge build up of excess power made him incinerate several rows of bookshelves (which Raoden seem to have attributed to a build up of thus far potentially hundreds of partial Aon runes that had summoned the Dor without providing a proper opening). Not sure if that adds anything, but I wanted to voice that out loud.

Anyway, Allomancy works fine wherever in the Cosmere apparently, and they don't need to use Investiture from other planets. The cosmere equivalent of molecules in their metals (even metals from other planets) functions like a "key" that lets them open a funnel to Preservations power directly. While they should be able to fuel their Allomancy with Stormlight or other types of Investiture too, this would require some form of "jailbreaking" of the magic systems in question, as per well known WoBs. I doubt that burning metals normally would just let them access Stormlight without some additional work-around.

4 hours ago, Flash said:

Finally, perpendicularities. Brandon described a shardpool as "spiking" the realms together. This perfectly fits with how I picture it. Investiture, the "weight", formed into a spike and driven through the realms to bring them entirely together.

Source your WoBs. I haven't heard of this one, and major Realmatics frameworks need to be well sourced, IMO. Yours isn't at all.

That being said, I do like the way of viewing the Realms as three (somewhat?) overlaying sheets of paper, though this hardly strays from how Brandon himself has described it in the books (look at Shai's explanation in the tES and cross-reference with Jasnah's attempted explanation at the beginning of WoR). I believe he might have explained it like this in a WoB somewhere, but I don't think that one will be easy to track down. The direct comparison to how real-world spatio-temporal bending in Special Relativity is often explained is novel, though.

Sources:

• On interchangeability: entry number 3
• Allomancy hard to fuel with other stuff: entry number 4

EDIT: Jeez. This post came off harsher than intended. Sorry. My point was to point out some of the problems of your model as well as request sourcing.

EDIT 2: Concerning Aluminum. I am not super familiar with the deep-end theorizing on the inert metal, but the way I've understood it is that it is just that - Investiture (?) inert somehow. I don't think it actively pushes Investiture away (certainly not that it pulls the Realms further apart), but that it blocks Investiture as a side-effect of being inert as a focus for Investiture.

I stopped looking for new quotes after having tracked down... quite a few... Putting them in spoiler tags in order to not have a mile-high post:

The general gist of these (and more, these are just some of the examples I found) are two things:

• "Feed" doesn't seem to be something I have just started using myself, as Brandon constantly uses the word himself. In fact, he literally consumes the Investiture, so saying he just breaks things down isn't quite correct.
• That last one seems to imply that we haven't seen Nightblood being used to its (his?) full potential yet, and that it (he?) has only been partially using most of the Investiture he seem to drain from his surroundings. What this means for the loss-ratio when he (it?) is being used to his (its?) full potential, I have no idea.

I do not know if Nightblood needs to destroy Investiture in order to work, but these WoBs (and other) seem to imply that the Investiture loss as the sword has thus far been used, at least, is quite heavy and that much of it is just... gone.

EDIT:

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It can be converted between the three states, and corrupted into a state that it not accessible, but it like matter and energy cannot just simply cease. 

I don't know. The general feel that I get from a lot of WoBs about Nightblood is that there is at least some form of loss, but your interpretation here is effectively the same thing anyway, so, yet again, "I dunno".

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

So the returneds soul has been stapled back to the body with investiture. Now imagine it like this: a balloon in the realms. That is the soul. It wants to leave to the beyond, and is constantly trying to push away. The investiture is like piling a weight onto the balloon to hold it down. (Just accept it. I know normally the balloon would just pop, but this is a metaphor). But, the balloon pushes some of the weight off, (consuming the breath) and unless you pile more weight on it, it will eventually float away into the beyond. 

Although the metaphor is... weird... I think you might be on to something here. However the mechanism actually functions, a soul needs something to avoid ascending (descending? Moving laterally?) into the Beyond. The big question is what the difference between Returned and other Cognitive Shadows (physically stapled or not) constitutes.

Given our lack of information, what makes the most sense to me thus far is that this is either a quirk of Endowment, or a necessity of anchoring the Cognitive Shadow to a physical host. I would prefer to stop at that and toss a "Dunno, let's RAFO" at it until we get more information.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Aether I agree in part. I don't think Nightblood can feed on anything. 

Brandon has stated repeatedly that while we have energy and matter, the Cosmere adds a third layer to this in investiture. 

Nightblood only seems to feed on investiture. The one time we do see him unseated and using his immense capabilities for destruction, he does seem to completely obliterate matter into investiture upon striking it, and I'm sure he would consume it then, but the cost/gain ratio seems like there would be far more lost in the conversion process between states than he could sustain. 

The spirit web is already composed of raw investiture, so I agree, if he runs out of a held source, be it breath, Stormlight, an actively burned metal, or whatever else, he will move on to the soul. I don't believe he would be able to feed beyond the soul and start consuming the physical body though. The cost/gain ratio would just be too high. 

In the case of an Elantrian I also agree with what your saying. They have been invested, and it manifests in their physical appearance. An Elantrian wielding Nightblood would need a way to connect him to the Dor to wield him safely because otherwise Nightblood would immediately turn on them. The problem here is that with the investiture having become fully a part of them, he would still be eating into there admittedly more invested souls. So it would take him slightly longer to fully consume them, that isn't necessary to cause irreparable damage. If he were to eat a small section of their soul it would most likely still be fatal, in the same way that Hemalurgy doesn't take a large portion. In that same line, just as Brandon has said that if someone does manage to survive being spiked, they would be something akin to a drab, and their personality would most likely be drastically altered, surviving a partial feeding by Nightblood would probably be... Unpleasant. 

Feed might be the wrong word to use, and I might have fallen into the trap of having my understanding of this being influenced by my own poor choice of words.

The way the Nightblood is described in Warbreaker certainly has a "feeding" feel to it, but it might be that he just destroys everything around him in a prioritised order as long as he is being wielded. As above, let's throw a "dunno" at this and await further info.

And about that cost/gain, ratio, I remember a WoB where it was stated that Nightblood actively destroys Investiture to a certain extent. I'm trying to track it down, but my Theoryland skills are rusty. (Have they gotten the new WoB search engine up and running, yet?)

6 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I believe that Nightblood consumes the soul in lieu of breath... when necessary. The soul as has been shown is in fact made up of investiture which as a last resort is used as a power source.

Yes. You said in two sentences what I used... more... to try to express

I would add that he consumes buildings too. Because "everything is creation", to quote myself.

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

There are multiple WoBs that says that Nightblood will feed on any investiture including the "spark of life."

He doesn't bother changing you into fuel, he just consumes the pattern of you that already is. 

We seem to be in agreement on this point, though we express it differently. Whether Nightblood "transforms you into fuel" or just omnomnoms you directly is really just silly semantics. Point is that everything is creation and that Investiture is the power of creation and whether it is the one the other both or whatever he eats, he will eat away at you nontheless.

The point I was trying to get across (or at least the one I originally wanted to make but lost somewhere in the process of a long post), was that I do not feel the fact the WoB someone quoted earlier in the Thread, that the Elantrians probably shouldn't hold Nightblood unless they found a way to power it with the Dor, means that the Elantrians aren't full of Investiture (as in being in a state where they are permanently holding in the Selish equivalent of Stormlight and that Nightblood would feed of that first and THEN kill them if that was the case). Elantrians are full of Investiture, the way I see it, but it has become a part of their being rather than just holding it in permanently (imagine someone finding a way to just permanently hold in a stormload of Stormlight, without really using it up). So feeding of their excess Investiture, as compared to normal humans, would kill them just as feeding of the inherent Investiture of normal humans would kill them.

Or at least that is the way I have come to interpret current data. Point is, everything is creation, and Nightblood omnomnoms creation (though he seems to prioritise the raw form), and I believe we agree on that latter point, at least.

And as a general note on Nightblood: It is not that he kills you unless he gets the proper fuel, its that he need the proper fuel or he will turn you into the proper fuel.

Remember that Investiture is literally small pockets of the power of creation. EVERYTHING has Investiture, in a way, but much of it isn't in its raw form. When Nightblood doesn't have any easily-accessible fuel at-the-ready, he turns you into that fuel by breaking you down into Investiture and then feeds on that.

I am reasonably certain that I am correct on this point. I'll try to see if I can hunt down the correct WoBs if I get the time tomorrow.