Scott

I'd assume the Heralds are pretty aware of who Tanavast and what Honor was. They were his champions, and they suffered horrifying torture for millennia. They wouldn't have done so without a compelling reason, and what more compelling a reason is "God said do this".

Tanavast does say that Odium could be forced to choose a champion, and that the dawnshards were involved somehow, but I don't remember the full quote.

I think I'm going to be more careful about what public wagers I make in the future

I started typing this out in the "Where are the Honorblades" post in Stormlight Archive discussion, but I realized that most of my points contained info from the WoR readings. I've moved my post over here so we can stop hijacking the other thread So... there have been a lot of arguments against where the Shardblades might be. I don't think they're particularly valid. Here are some of the posts, spoilered for space saving: I think we're discounting too many possibilities out of hand, citing the current situation of Roshar as it it had always been like this. A lot of time has passed since the Recreance. First off, Dalinar says there are less than a hundred known blades on Roshar, and most of them seem to belong to kings, highprinces, or bodyguards. That leaves at least another hundred blades unaccounted assuming that only the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their blades. If the other Radiant Orders had similar numbers and abandoned blades as well, we're looking at about a thousand. Either way, we have between 100 and 900 blades unaccounted for. Either they're owned by people who don't advertise their existance, they're lost, or they're stored somewhere. I think we have evidence of both lost blades and plates, and of criminal or shadow elements owning them. Here's my count of non-highprince/king/bodyguard Shardblades. Conclusions are what I think based on the evidence: Exhibit A: The Parshendi The Parshendi owned multiple sets of blade and plate at the start of the Vengeance Pact. The Alethi have won several blades and plates in combat, and Eshonai states that they have a few left, so lets say we're looking at 6-12 blades and plates. Where did they come from? The Parshendi were "discovered" by the Alethi seven years prior to the Way of Kings. When Galivar was killed, the Parshendi made no effort to take his plate/blade, and we haven't heard about any other Parshendi attempts to take shards. They could have created the plates and blades, but they have a limited number and show no ability to make more, so I think this is unlikely. The simplest explanation is that they found the blades and plates. They could have found them in the wilderness, in the chasms in the Shattered Plains, in the buildings under the Shattered Plains, or anywhere else that they traveled prior to meeting the Alethi. Conclusion: Some blades were lost in remote but accessible locations. Exhibit B: Lyss Lyss is an assassin, and has a Shardblade. We don't know how she got it. I find it unlikely that this is a blade that exists in public knowledge since Jasnah says Lyss gouges out the eyes of her victims to hide her method of killing. Lyss doesn't seem to be a super special assassin, so I believe it is safe to assume that more people like her exist. Conclusion: Some blades are in the hands of people who do not want publicity, power, or prestige. Exhibit C: Darkness and the constables (steelhunt spoilers) Exhibit D: Shallan's Family Shallan has a Shardblade. Shallan's shardblade is the product of her greatest sin, and she killed her father, so it is theorized that the Shardblade was held by her father. Shallan's father was working with the Ghostbloods to make a bid to become a Highprince. House Davar was a minor house at the time, on the verge of bankruptcy, and a minor house does not own a Shardblade without becoming more powerful, wealthy and prestigious. The Ghostbloods provided House Davar with a soulcaster, so it's not a stretch to presume they also provided a Shardblade. In addition, Amaram thinks that the Ghostbloods are behind the attempt on his life by a Shardbearer, who is theorized to be Shallan's eldest brother. The Ghostbloods have therefore supplied a soulcaster, probably a shardblade, and possibly an additional full set of plate and blade to the Davar family. That's 1-4 priceless artifacts gambled on a minor family's bid for Highprincedom. I find it hard to believe that the Ghostbloods would take such a risk if they only had a few of these artifacts available. Conclusion: The Ghostbloods have multiple blades, plates, and soulcasters, or access to them if needed Verdict: At most half of all Shardblades are held by known entities. The rest must be somewhere. There are several possibilities that have at least one example or strong suggestion: In the hands of non-public figures (Lyss, confirmed) Lost, some found by Parshendi (unconfirmed, supposition) In the hands of organizations like the Ghostbloods (unconfirmed, highly suggested. Soulcaster is confirmed) In the hands of Heralds (confirmed if Darkness is Nalan; Darkness and his minions) -------- What do you think?

Good points, and I mostly agree. I think few of the blades would have been lost. Here's how I could see the timeline going down: The Recreance occurs. The soldiers grabbed the blades and started fighting with each other so it's safe to assume the command structure would fall apart. Many that do not have both a blade and a plate would flee. I'm sure some of them took off into the wild with their new treasures to protect themselves, and a few probably met unfortunate ends. Once the dust settled, the shardholders would get prestige and power and probably became kings, rulers, or warlords. They would have made a point of gathering as many other shards and shardbearers under their banners as possible. As time went on, these people died. If they died in battle, someone would publicly claim the shards. However, if they died in a plot or assassination, the shards would have been taken by the killers. I doubt that an assassin would reveal that they had a Shardblade, especially if it was a known blade, and likewise if the Ghostbloods took a shard. They would use it for their own purposes but they wouldn't come out and announce themselves. This would explain why so few blades are known about currently. Most of them are in the hands of people who aquired them in their shady lines of work, and wouldn't want to draw attention.

Roshar is a fairly dangerous environment. It would be easy for someone with a Shardblade to fall off a ship and drown, with the sword appearing beside him and sinking to the bottom of the sea. They could fall into a chasm never to be seen again, or killed by an animal or a highstorm in the wilderness. I think crem would cover anything left out for long enough, so there could be blades anywhere...

Humans bond with spren a different way. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that Kaladin didn't walk out into a highstorm as a normal human and emerge with Syl as a Windrunner...

Here's mine 1) Riding the storm is the Windrunner special ability. No other Radiants will be able to do it. 2) Dalinar will be a Stoneward. We will see his spren in WoR. 3) Kaladin will wield a Shardspear in WoR

Silent "P"?

More sugar! More coffee! More theories!!!

My thinking was as follows: The two types of cities in roshar are either surface-built, or chasm-built. 1) Chasm-protected cities There are references to cities built entirely inside networks of chasms for protection. For example, Karbranth is built in a large cleft in the stone such that none of the buildings extend above the protecting rock faces. This seems to be the main type of city in highstorm-wracked areas. If a city was built in a series of chasms, and then covered by crem, then you'd get a flat surface on top cut up by much smaller chasms that follow (presumably) the road systems or gaps between buildings such as the city under the shattered plains. However, the only mention of depressions or clefts in the rock in the prelude are where thunderclasts tore themselves free, leading me to believe the only way to construct a city on the prelude battlefield would be a surface city... 2) Surface cities These are more open, and are typically seen in areas with weaker highstorms (Azir (Lift interlude), Emul, Purelake, etc). The city would be built from the ground up, and would have buildings of differing levels. The plateaus in the shattered plains are roughly the same height, at least on the Alethi side. If the heights were too different then bridges would not be able to span the gaps. This means that if the shattered plains is the same location as the prelude, and in the meantime a city was built and encrusted with crem, something would have had to push the city down far enough into the ground that the tops of the buildings were the same height. Also, it seems unlikely that a surface city would be built on the far east side of Roshar where highstorms are strongest. In my mind neither option seems likely, so option three (shattered plains is not where the prelude takes place) gets the win.

The shattered plains have huge chasms, there's no mention of those in the prelude. I find it unlikely that an entire city was built up, and then hit so hard it sunk into the ground so that the tops of the buildings are level with the ground around it as in the plains.

Agree. Shardlet and I were actually discussing the first ideal in the "Lift's Specialties" thread, debating whether the words made a difference or whether the oath had to be internalized, and not being able to find an associated power jump. This theory would make sense. BTW the quote you're looking for is here, page 1049 in my softcover:

I believe that both size and cut are limiting factors in how much stormlight a gem can hold and for how long. A gem with a large straight edge like that would probably lose it's stormlight rapidly.

Upvote for "severe case of cheststabbing" On Regrowth, I would think it's similar to soulstamping. You can very easily heal a wound that just happened because the person would easily believe that they're whole again. Healing a toe that's been gone for a long time should be possible, but may take a more skilled Regrower or more stormlight. The less believable the transformation the harder it is. e/ just read Kurkistan's link. Looks like BS says you can't fix chronic things.

I'm sorry, I don't have a book handy, but I just had a random thought about the "return to men the shards they once bore" quote. Could Honor be talking about returning the Honorblades to the Heralds?

It doesn't have to. Maybe only Honorspren don't like Shardblades? I'd eat my hat if Dalinar became a radiant and his spren was a cultivationspren. We don't have enough evidence either way, and I like your theory e: I don't have a hat, so I'd buy a hat and THEN eat it

Whoops, mis-read what you had said there. Violent agreement! I agree fully, killing everyone serves little purpose. Taravangian's targets are only powerful people. I'm sure many rulers aren't important enough to send someone like Szeth after.

Remember that Karbranth is little more than a city-state. The people Szeth is killing are notable figures in major countries. Even should the leaders of every country with a sizable army die, I doubt anyone would find it suspicious that the king of an out-of-the-way hospital town survives.

I'm thinking Nalan needs to have some way to detect surgebinding to find and track these people. Maybe his method of detection doesn't work on Szeth due to the way his powers were gained? e: Also, In the Jasnah prologue Nalan and the man he's talking to (Kelek possibly) say "That creature has my master's own blade". If they're referring to Szeth and his sword, then maybe Darkness is aware of Szeth and does not believe that he will cause a Desolation. Or... *queue conspiracy music*... Nalan is working with Taravangian! Nalan seems to need a lawful reason to kill people, but Szeth just needs to be ordered to. Maybe they're working towards the same end!

He does have a Shardblade, and Kaladin does not. I would be interested to see a Szeth vs Nalan fight. Both have shardblades, no plate, can invest, and have extensive combat experience. They probably get their surgebinding powers from the same source too

The only thing Kaladin would have going for him is that Nalan wouldn't have his Honorblade when they fought. I'd wager that all of Nalan's experience fighting dangerous enemies and knowledgeable surgebinders occured when he had his Honorblade and the power that came with it. What he's doing now is the equivalent of hunting down Spartan infants before they become powerful warriors. Still, I think he'd mop the floor with poor Kaladin. Hopefully Taln shows up and smacks some sense into Nalan.

Ah, I see your point. I just remembered two other similar things that happened to Kaladin, not sure if they're related at all, but I figured I'd toss them out. First, a few pages before my quote on page 1044. Kaladin is having an argument with himself about leaving the Bridgemen: The part about feeling the warmth from the sphere made me remember it. It's almost like the Stormlight is calling to him, helping him understand what he needs to do. The second one's like a smaller version of the quote Shardlet gave. Kaladin goes over the first part of the Ideal in his head, Life before Death. It's on page 758 in my softcover: On second read, it doesn't seem nearly as important, I had remembered the cold wind as something a bit more. Regardless it may be of interest. He could be slowly internalizing the oaths, culminating in the decision to save Dalinar. I'm still undecided on whether the oaths need to be vocalized or just acknowledged. The fact that very specific words spark in their minds tells me that they have some meaning. It's possible the oaths just need to be communicated to the bonded spren. Shallan has shown that people can communicate with some spren just by thinking at them. I wish I knew if this was a trait that only Cryptics had.

When Lift says "I tried to be like you..." I believe she was referring to Darkness being cold, void of emotion, and uncaring. Neither she nor Wyndel seems aware he is a Herald, if he is indeed Nalan. Here's the quote: In addition, we don't know if picking up an Honorblade does anything special to anyone. There is a theory that Szeth wields Jezrien's Honorblade, and that it is the source of Szeth's powers, but it's far from proven. e: Incidentally, your comment on Jezrien drooling is also explored in Argent's lovely Fallen Heralds thread

Kaladin actually spoke the first ideal in the Chasm before he climbed under the bridge using his rocks. Its page 1049 in my softcover: