CabbageHead

Was re-reading the end of The Way of Kings, and was struck by this passage: Note the capitalisation of Shards. Was the origin of Adonalsium a group effort of the human race in the distant past that went horribly wrong, and which concentrated power in dubious hands when it shattered?

I've always seen the storms as a manifestation of the battle between Honour and Odium. From the scene you quoted That sounds a lot more like Odium than Honour. But, at the same time, the storms provide stormlight. Bit of a mixed bag, chaos and evil, and the power of creation. I thought that was a kind of special moment, again light vs darkness. Kaladin has a vision of pure evil, and the light drives it away. Not exactly the best moment in time to use as a measure of the average conditions in a Highstorm.

Doh. There goes another nascent suspicion in my mind before it had fully formed. I was just thinking about whether the number of magic systems on a planet was related to the number of resident shards. Scadrial, 2 shards, 1 system based on Preservation, 1 on Ruin, one a mix of both. Nalthis, 1 shard, 1 magic system. And until you said that, Sel, 2 shards, 3 known systems. If there was a system for every combination of local shards, we could have 7 magic systems on Roshar. I wonder if the 4th unknown confirmed magic system on Sel is something that falls outside of the shards? Lightweaving was supposedly around before the shattering of Adonalsium.

Perhaps there are lie-spren and we just can't see them? it would be a bit of a give away if you could tell when someone is lying. Especially when we know that the stronger the phenomenon, the stronger the chance the associated spren will be attracted to it.

Could be the reason that Syl has such an aversion to them. Interesting thought.

Which begs the question... Is Odium the Shard of Hate, or just the hated Shard?

I've wondered about this before. If you try to find some relatively literal meaning for "Truthless", the closest I can come up with is Liar. His punishment declares that Voidbringers don't exist. Does that mean he is being called a liar for saying that they do? His honour demands that they do exist. A man's word is his honour. There is a possibility here that he has actually encountered voidbringers, and was made truthless for violating religious dogma. Pure speculation, can't wait to find out the truth of the matter

Looking at the difference between Shin lands and the rest of Roshar that we know about, we can certainly see the influence of Cultivation in their culture. Farmers, or "He Who Adds" are revered above all others in their society. However, and I've mentioned this somewhere else in some random other thread, Cultivation's direct influence on the world is possibly more pronounced, and even necessary, in all of the world outside of the Shin lands. Everywhere else, people struggle to produce food from weird plants that flourish with a complete lack of soil. The Shin may be her most loyal and devout followers, but it seems she does her greatest works elsewhere, where it is most needed.

A concept, words on a page. Sounds like a design. A set of plans. Maybe Adonalsium shattered because it is something that was somehow created by a race of humans in the distant past, and was poorly designed?

I think that's just Brandon messing with people. None of the shard bearers are native to their respective planets, with the exception of Harmony. As for the idea that Cultivation was behind Gavilar's death.... was she just doing a bit of pruning? /hide

Yes I understand that, but what are the other 2 lines about?

Just looking at those two diagrams again (that Windrunner linked) I noticed something that puzzles me slightly. I'm going to ramble a bit here, so I hope someone understands what I'm on about, and maybe give an explaination for what I'm seeing. Ignore the smaller symbols denoting the surges, and look just at the ten for the Ideals/Essences. The links between the symbols are shown joining each one to the two adjacent ones, and the one opposite. However, four of them have an additional link, the top left to bottom left, and top right to bottom right. In the Voidbinding diagram, the background is clearly divided into three sections. Do these sections indicate the 3 shards on Roshar, or perhaps the 3 realms? Anyway, the middle one has two symbols, and the right and left each have four. At first I thought the two middle symbols were in the centre because of the rectangular shape of the overall diagram, but when I noticed that the diagram was divided equally into three, it got me thinking that maybe there are actually 12 symbols there, making 2 circles of 6 with the centre 2 actually each being 2 overlaid on each other (the large elipse encasing them in the voidbinding diagram seems to denote something extra about those 2). That would make it 4 in each of the 3 sections of the diagram, yet still only 10 overall. The links that are shown then, are from each of the symbols to its two adjacents, to its opposite in the larger circle of 10, and to its opposite in the smaller circles of 6 if it is in the same 1/3rd of the diagram. Now, if I didn't lose you with that, any idea what it means? (particularly the extra 2 denoted relationships that break the overall rotational symmetry that the diagram would have if it was displayed with the 10 symbols equally spaced around a circle)

I suspect "the element" has something to do with the shattering of Adonalsium, and we're just going to have to wait and find out. That the name of the group searching for Hoid call themselves "The 17th Shard" is to my mind a strong indicator that we are dealing with something contemporary with the 16 shards. Was there a guiding intelligence behind Adonalsium, like there are with its shards? Could Hoid have merged with this, much like the shard holders have with their respective shards? Now we know that Hoid twists words, but often at the same time in an extremely literal way. Hoid here says that he stole something that began its life as a concept; and that something is now him. When he speaks of "wearing" the name of a rock, is it Hoid or "the element" speaking?

They currently go to the Highprince whose army captured them, yes. That is all due to change when/if Dalinar becomes Highprince of War. As regards to their value: I think there is something of an exponential function, or at least non-linear function, of size to value ratio for a gem. The larger a gem is, the more stormlight it can hold and the more can be done with it; that all follows a basic gem-size linear equation. However, gems sometimes shatter when used for soulcasting, and from what I gather/guess from reading, the chances of that happening seem to be based on the demand for power placed upon the gem, relevant to what it is capable of providing. Massive gems will not only provide a huge source of power, they have a lower probability of that power source being permanently fractured into smaller pieces, and as a result are more valuable than an equavalent sum of smaller gems. With regard to Shardplate: I doubt the Parshendi have the means to craft it. We have only seen 1 Parshendi thus far wearing it. However, I have a feeling that they have uses for large gems, beside the obvious one of providing food in the barren wasteland they are holed up in. The Parshendi Gavilar first met seemed to be relatively normal people. The ones fighting on the shattered plains have armour growing out of them, and can all just jump across chasms that humans require entire divisions of engineering troops to bridge. They definitely fall into the category that in a science fiction story would be termed as "augmented individuals".

I would assume Endownment is more... well endowed... than normal people.

Hoid is the most badass guy around, who shepards many worlds in their development and sometimes tells stories. His first name is Brandon.

I agree with Sir Read-a-lot, that he would fall into the Loving/Healing category. If you look at the list of essences, those listed for that set of character atrributes are "Quartz, glass, crystal". These are things that occur naturally in some rocks, and could very well be why Tien thought of some stones that others found unremarkable to be in some way special.

Ok folks, this isn't really a theory thread, more a background building exercise. The basic idea is, given that the number ten is always highly significant on Roshar, what connections can we make. The particular aspect I'm focusing on are the 10 Heralds, and the 10 Silver Kingdoms, and trying to build associative relationships between them. So far, the only really solid connection I have come up with is Talenelat and Natanatan. In that case, we have: Talenelat'Elin. Only Herald remaining in the Oathpact. From the Ars Arcanum, associated with #9, Tanat (reasonably similar to Natanatan, one of the Silver Kingdoms). Divine attributes Dependable/Resourceful. Dependable in that he was the only one who continued the Oathpact. Soulcasting properties associated with Tanat: Rock and stone. Defining aspect of Natanatan(the shattered plains)? Rock and stone. Natanatan was referred to as "the Granite Kingdom." Compared to Tanelenat, "Stone Sinew". And the strange one: Talenelat was the only member of the Oathpact left. Natanatan is the only one of the Silver Kingdoms which has completely fallen. Has anyone noticed any other remarkable significant links between the Silver Kingdoms and the Heralds? There are many links between some peoples and them, for example Kalak, who's related body focus is the nails, and the Unkalaki, known as Horneaters for eating claws and shells (ie. nail-like bodyparts). But I have trouble equating Kingdoms with individual Heralds. There are some obvious similarities, like Ishi and Rishir. Has anyone come up with anything coming close to a comprehensive association between the 10 Kingdoms and the 10 Heralds? EDIT: I said Radiants when I meant Heralds.

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with voidbinding. But that same passage is one of the ones that I think about when I think (and most disagree with me) that Radiant Shardplate was supplied with stormlight by the Radiants, and not by infused gems. We know it is supplied power now by gems, but the Radiants themselves seem infused by stormlight in the few scenes we see them in, and... bah, sorry for hijacking the thread :S

I like this idea. I had assumed that Vasher hiding his status as a Returned was merely to go unnoticed. Might he possibly also be shutting down most of the functions of a Returned body so as to minimise the breath he requires to consume to live?

We know the name of the group Teft was a member of, "The Envisagers". I'm not entirely sure what to make of that name, it would loosely mean something along the lines of them imagining or seeing the Radiants before they became reality. Peering into the future towards them, perhaps, which apparently is very much frowned upon by Vorinism. However, I would have a great deal of trouble equating them with the Ghostbloods, both from the difference in their names, and also because Teft believes them to all be gone.

I don't think it is quite that simple. I believe shardplate and shardblades lost a large portion of their power because they were fueled by their bearers, and are now supported by infused gems instead. However, I don't think the Radiants left because of the Heralds leaving. I thnink they quit out of disgust at humanity as a whole, expecting them to do everything for them but not being willing to pay for it.

I'm not convinced they did betray humanity. That line is from the Day of Recreance: after the last Desolation. People seem to be very vocal about what the Radiants should be doing, but unwilling to pull their own weight.

Good question. We know the day of Recreance was a long time ago, long ago enough that people dont really remember what the Radiants could do, except in very simple terms, like "walking on walls". I think a question that everyone ignores, however, is what was the Day of Recreance, and what were the true reasons behind it? The accepted historical line is that the Knights Radiant abandoned humanity. I think the truth of the matter would probably be more along the lines of humanity abandoning the Knights, and the Knights thinking, ok, you don't appreciate what we do, you're on your own now. There is evidence that people complained about the tax the Radiants imposed to support their activities: Àt the same time, the Radiants were expected to do all the major work in battle. As per Dalinar's stormvision of the Day of Recreance Humanity was not abandoned by the Radiants. Humanity refused to support them, and they quit their job in despair.

I think its a bit late for that: Kaladin is now leader of Dalinar's personal guard, and is in command of an entire battalion outside the chain of command. He already has an important position, and thats his starting position in the Kholin army. I'd argue however that the "zero to hero" thing really doesn't apply. The first chapter of the book, a scene from Kaladins past, shows him already a hero: