Arondell

The forgotten... Who are the forgotten? It is a wide term. Do not forget Lift said her oath as she contemplated Gaxk death and thought how nobody would mourn him, how nobody would care, so she had too. Adolin has been doing the exact same thing with both his mother and his dead soldiers. He cared.

 

You can't help the dead, true, but you can keep their memory alive so a part of them can be kept in the living world.

 

As for the living, Adolin cared enough to rescue a lowly prostitute in an enemy warcamp when most if not all men (and perhaps even Dalinar) would have walked pass.  He also cared enough to lock himself into a cell for weeks to protest against Kaladin's unjust imprisonment. He rewarded him by doing what I suspect not many lighteyed have done in Roshar's history, that is giving him a set of shards, which Kaladim refused, but Adolin cared enough to give him his wish to give them to Moash. He could have said no. In fact, not only most lighteyes would not have given Kaladin the shards and most of them would probably not have obliged him in transferring them to Moash. A darkeyes gaining shards is a HUGE deal on Roshar.

 

 

My understanding of the "forgotten" is people nobody cares about while they live.  The neglected and disdained that are usually overlooked by society.  For the most part Dalinar's men who fall in battle don't really qualify.  Just because we don't know who those faceless men were doesn't imply that they didn't have families or friends who cared about them.  Kaladin specifically notes the many widows that were left in the wake of Sadea's betrayal.  As for the prostitute in Sadea's war camp Adolin simply came across a situation and behaved in an honorable fashion.  He didn't seek out the confrontation. In Kaladin's situation it was, again, a very honorable action to put himself into a jail cell as a gesture of solidarity but do you really see Kaladin as one of the "forgotten" at this point? Leaving aside Bridge Four there are about a thousand men under Kaladin's command that would disagree.

Lift by contrast seems to go out of her way to look out for and associate herself with the lowliest in society.  It is one of the reasons she comes along on the attempt to rob the palace.  When she hears Gawx is captured she intends to help get him out of jail because she knows no one else will.  Even Gawx's own family ultimately views him as expendable.

When I start seeing Adolin hanging out in soup kitchens to aid the poor rather then wine houses or maybe taking particular interest in the living quarters of street beggars I'll see some Edgedancer potential.  I think Adolin is a pretty decent guy.  He might make a Radiant some day but as things stand at the moment I don't see him as an Edgedancer.

I'm skeptical of Adolin being an Edgedancer as well.  The second oath of the Edgedancers are "I will remember those who are forgotten."  When has Adolin helped or expressed an intention to help others who are forgotten?  Lift did so on several occasions before she spoke the second oath.  I feel remembering the dead doesn't count since you can't do anything to help them.

Also I don't think the spren of the Edgedancers look for fighting ability as a primary characteristic.  Lift after all is a thief and is about as far from the descriptions of Edgedancers that we have been given as is possible to be.

I'm also skeptical of him (nahel)bonding the blade.  From the word of Brandon I recall he kind of described the breaking of the Knights Oaths as effectively ripping something out of the mind of the spren making the damage involved very difficult to fix.  The Cryptics apparently have tried and now think it might be possible if the sprens original Knights still lived.  Based on these descriptions I find it improbable that simply behaving like a radiant candidate and talking to the blade is anywhere near enough to fix the problem.  I would guess whatever part of the spren enabled the bond would have to be replaced before any bonding could happen.  I would not put this down as impossible but it would require something extraordinary even by Radiant standards. (Nightwatcher intervention maybe?)

Personally I think the Windrunners would be ruled out based on a combination of the oaths and Sylphrena's reaction to killing.  She seems to hate the idea of killing unless there is an immediate need.  Even then she doesn't like it.  It apparently "hurts" her in some fashion.  Killing someone because on past deeds or because of likely future actions seems to be anathema to her.   A Windrunner wants to protect and will only kill when there is no other option.  I had the impression that is a big part of the reason Mr. Sanderson just changed the climax to the Words of Radiance.

It was the morally right thing to do (confirmed by Brandon when he states there is legitimate moral ground to justify Adolin's actions or this is how I interpret this specific WoB), but it was the legally wrong thing to do.

 

The problem is Adolin has placed himself in a situation where his actions violently clashes with Dalinar's idea of morality while being illegal. I do not think he was psychologically ready (he acted on impulse) to take such a stand against his father and against his country even if he was right to do so.

 

Definitely fits within the "loving" and "healing" attributes of Edgedancers though.

Whether it was the morally right thing to do is a matter of opinion.  Which is kind of the crux of the matter.  Every order of the Knights have differing opinions on the issue.  When trying to figure out if a particular order would or would not approve of a particular action we don't have a lot to go on but I would bet the oaths would be a pretty good guideline.  e.g. I don't think light weavers would be particularly bothered as a whole by Adolin's actions.  Skybreakers would disapprove because he broke the law.  I think a Windwalker would first ask was he protecting someone when he did it.

I don't specifically remember a "Full Lashing" form Szeth, but I know he states what they are, which is pretty weird for him to do, if it isn't a power he possess. Unless, my theory is correct and he states it as just something he was taught during training with the blade and it's a red herring, But... in all likelihood, you're just right about this and I extrapolated a lot of ideas from a single sentence. 

From the prologue to Way of Kings during the assassination of king Gavilar.

 

The Stormlight held the door in the frame with the strength of a hundred arms. A Full Lashing bound objects together, holding them fast until the Stormlight ran out. It took longer to create—and drained Stormlight far more quickly—than a Basic Lashing. The door handle shook, and then the wood began to crack as the guards threw their weight against it, one man calling for an axe.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 26-27). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

There has been some speculation in the past that that passage might be referring to an unusual ability to craft fabrials.  It is pretty clear, if Nalan is any example, that the Skybreakers were big on order.  Now who else has also expressed a love of order?  Navani.

 

This was the mark of humankind: to take the wild, unorganized world and make something logical of it. You could get so much more done when everything was in its place, when you could easily find what or whom you needed. Creativity required such things. Careful planning was, indeed, the water that nourished innovation.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 412). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So add these together and it might be a hint that the Skybreakers had an unusual gift for fabrial construction.  Something "for which no specific Surge of spren grants capacity."  I thought it was an interesting speculation since it didn't require the surge.  Just the right attitude towards order.

As an aside Navani's thoughts on this plus a few other events has been seen as circumstantial evidence that Navani could be a potential Skybreaker candidate.(e.g. Her kneeling before the giant glyph of justice in WoK.)

I guess I'm just taking Mr. Sanderson's words at face value.  I don't think in this new version Kaladin restrains himself out of a perceived sense of innocence on the part of Szeth.(Szeth isn't innocent.  Taking an oath that you are fully aware might require you to unquestioningly kill people for no other reason then you were told to precludes innocence in my opinion.)  I felt he restrained himself because he probably realized from Szeth's words and actions that Szeth would no longer be a threat.  Being a Windrunner is about protection not vengeance or even justice.  Szeth is apparently no longer a threat so killing him is no longer necessary.

I think the whole death is about both characters, not just Kaladin. Szeth is able to get what he wants, an end and justice for his sins. Kaladin is able to give mercy to the innocent. It makes this all incredibly powerful.

I don't have the impression that Kaladin declined to kill Szeth in climax 2.0 because of a perception of innocence.  Assuming no other textual tweeks happen then Kaladin still believes that Szeth never had to kill and he still accuses Szeth of cowardice.

Because he's sworn to protect people who can't protect themselves, even if he hates them.

Specifically the oath is “I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right.”

So there is some room for personal opinion in the oath.

 

 

I have assumed her "brokenness" was related to the Gavilar's death and her inability to "stop" it, much like Dalinar was broken by the same event (in my mind). She had attracted Ivory by her actions, but then it was the death of her father that caused her to have the breaks necessary to bond Ivory. 

 

Her breathing in stormlight, shortly before Gavilar's death, during the apparent test by Ivory strongly implies the bond was already in place.  I really doubt she could have done that without such a bond.  That Azish looking individual that was likely Nalan certainly seemed to notice her in the prologue so I'm inclined to think whatever damage she suffered happened in her youth.

It seemed to me that most of the powerful spren that are discussed or seen are not really thought of as having a category.  It is as if there level of power transcends normal categorization.   They are unique and are simply cognitive shadows of very powerful unique entities.  Trying to give them all a category beyond "unique" could even be misleading since they all represent different things.

As for whether the Stormfather is actually a spren or not, I would fall on the side of "yes".  Other entities of similar power have been referred to as spren so the Stormfather should also qualify as one.  (e.g. Nightwatcher, Nergaoul)

There's a thread similar to this under the title "Dual Shardblades Update," just so you know.

 

As I said in that thread, why stop at a statue? Why not get a big group of KR together and build a Spren-castle, each Spren a brick?

Well given the number of spren available that could actually become bricks it would have to be a very small castle.   It would probably not be an effective use of a very rare resource.

How does one define "mobile" here though? They can change form, so if you want the statue to walk they'll just have to walk in stop motion real storming fast.

It's a weird topic to bring up.

Well my definition of mobile would be to stay in physical form and move around.  Nothing I've seen or heard so far indicates that a spren could take physical form and move themselves around while maintaining that form.  The stop motion sounds like they would just be forming and dissipating really fast in a slightly different shape.  Sure one could turn into a ball or something but it would still have to rely on other forces to move around.(e.g. gravity)

It is also been speculated that Navani might attract a highspren and become a skybreaker.  A number of things hint at the possibility.  Her love of order as well as drawing and then kneeling before the large glyph of justice are two of them.  A few other hints scattered here or there.

I thought it at had been confirmed that something like shard rope might be possible.  Although rope is supposed to be something flexible and is relatively homogenous in makeup.  I doubt the rope could move itself any more then a spren shardblade could wield itself.  So I'm guessing that a shard statue would be just that and likely not flexible.  Absent further info I would bet that a spren could not take a solid, mobile, form.

The idea reminds me a little bit of The Vision of Escaflowne.  Heck the magical mechs are even run by glowing stones that are the hearts of slain dragons.

Wait...Are you talking about the post where you claimed Teft didn't even know there were different orders?  The one where you said that Teft thought Kaladin would have access to all the surges?  I responded to that post with specific quotes, including page numbers, where he discusses that each of the ten orders followed the five ideals of which only the first was the same for each order.  So he was dead right about that.  Can you please give a specific quote where Teft says something about Radiants that is actually incorrect?

I just came up with a crack-pot theory.  Fair warning, it's so out there that not even I believe it.  There is a way that Hesina could be a lighteyes herself.  She could be applying those eyedrops that turn a lighteyed persons eyes dark.  Why she would do that, I don't know.  It also seems like a pretty big ruse to hide from two children, let alone the rest of Hearthstone.  Still, it would explain her education and speaking.

It was speculated some time back that one of Hesina's parents might be lighteyed.

Well the two points I "cherry picked" were the two occasions that people we have reason to believe know something about the bond and stormlight commented on this very issue.  Everything else is supposition and speculation.  Though for the most part well stated supposition and speculation.  The one exception in your case being your opinion on Teft which seemed to be totally off as far as I can tell.  Since I can't think of anything Teft has stated about the Radiants that was flat out wrong I don't see why we should doubt him here.  Yes, he has gaps in his knowledge and some of it is, on occasion, vague. 

The other one is Syl who is an Honorspren which makes it highly unlikely she would lie about anything.  Though it is possible that this might be a case of how she sees it from her point of view.

Also of course we seem to have a Word of Brandon floating around which seems to have some bearing on this issue without outright resolving it.

Fortunately I have some acquaintances in Boston who are going to try to get to Mr. Sanderson's book signing this week.  If they get the chance I've requested they ask Mr. Sanderson about this specific subject.  "Assuming all other things are the same what is Kaladin's skill level with the spear without the nahel bond?"  It doesn't seem like the kind of question that would generate a RAFO so I'm hopeful that we can get a straight answer on the subject.

I should add something to perhaps clarify my position.  I don't really believe in the concept of "natural talent."  To the extent it does exist I don't think it is anything but a particular interest in specific subject.  Basically someone finds something they find particularly interesting and end up practicing it a lot.  Now if you intensively practice anything you enjoy doing for five years, particularly from a young age, your going to get pretty darn good at it.  Given that Kaladin has been intensively training in the use of the spear for five years I would think it very odd that he would not be a very competent spearman with or without the bond.

Everything we have heard about this in the story has made the point that it is the combination of Kaladin's skill and the bond that elevates him to his superhuman ability.

In TWoK Teft's thoughts on how stormlight operates.

 

Teft had only a fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. It perfected.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 928). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Then in WoR we have Syl's opinion on the subject.(Despite my difference of opinion on the origin of talent.)

 

“It’s us.” “It’s cheating. Unearned.” “Nonsense,” Syl said. “You practice every day.” “I have an advantage.” “The advantage of talent,” Syl said. “When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 613). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Two very different sources within the story agree on this point.  As things stand unless some other passage from the books contradicts Teft and/or Syl I'm going with their explanation.

My take on the scene where Kaladin was trying to practice was that his head "wasn't in the game" as it were.  He was the exact opposite of "in the groove."   We know Kaladin suffers from a seasonal depressive disorder.  So he can barely walk and he is feeling generally depressed because of the weather.  On top of this he is dealing with the fact that he just killed Syl who was essentially a part of his soul and he is dealing with conflicted feelings about the whole conspiracy to kill the king.

I would point out once he made his decision to save the king(i.e. gained a little focus.) his spear work notably improved.  Even with his severe wound he took out two guards before they could raise an alarm. Granted he took them by surprise but that is still kind of impressive given his physical condition.  If he was as incompetent without the bond as your kind of implying then he should not have been able to do that.

 

Jasnah -  Elsecaller -          Soulcasting at a distance? (Probably not)

For some reason I have a vague memory that the Elsecaller special ability was a perfect sense of direction.  I can't remember where I read that though but Hoid does comment on Jasnah's sense of direction in the epilogue.

 

She started walking directly toward the nearest town. She had a good sense of direction, this woman.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1079). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

As for Teft... he knows very little, and most of what he knows is wrong. The people who taught him thought that just about anyone would become a Radiant if they were about to die, and so invented Rube Goldberg suicide machines. He didn't even know how one draws in Stormlight. He didn't realize there were different Orders of Radiant; he told Kaladin that Kaladin would have every Surge, and that's not how it works. Apart from "Stormlight = powers" and "You're only a Surgebinder and I don't know what you have to do to be a Radiant" Teft has not gotten one single fact correct. His role is more to show us that most of what people believe about magic is wrong, than to be the Surgepedia. Basically, at this point, if Teft explains something, I take it more-or-less on faith that it's wrong.

I feel your overstating this at least a little.  If nothing else some comments he made in Words of Radiance makes it clear that he did at least understand that there were different orders.  I don't recall any scene where he told Kaladin he would have access to every surge.  I do recall a scene where he mentioned various powers the Radiants as a whole had.

Edit : Digging around a bit more in  in TWoK I found the section where Teft tells Kaladin of the Ideals.  Including that the later four were different for each order.  Your assertion that he didn't know there were different orders is directly contradicted by scenes in both WoK and WoR.  He appears to know quite a bit more then your willing to give him credit for.

 

“ Do you know much of the others?” Teft had been the first one to figure out what Kaladin could do. He’d known before Kaladin himself had. “Not much,” Teft said with a grimace. “I know the orders didn’t always get along, despite what the official stories say. We’ll need to see if we can find someone who knows more than I do. I . . . I kept away. And the people I knew who could tell us, they aren’t around any longer.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 158). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“I don’t actually know,” Teft said. “But the Immortal Words—these Ideals—guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every order of Radiants. But the First Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.” He hesitated. “Or so I was told.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 831). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Well, that's actually sounds pretty interesting, but that not exactly what I want. What I want is to be surprised by the ending. In almost all books the good guys win, which is too predictable, but if the bad guys would win I would be really, really surprised. And I'd like that. The rest of the books has not straighforward morally characters and no real distinctions between good and bad guys, which makes it more surprising and interesting, but still not as surprising as bad guy winnig. But now you told me that these books end this way, they're no surprise anymore. : ) But I'll check them out anyway, so thanks!

That is a bit of a catch-22.  If you say your looking for stories where the bad guys win then anything someone suggests based on that criteria will kind of give away the ending.     The interesting part isn't the ending.  It is how you get there. 

They won't lose, they're in the book. (I'm still trying to get a fantasy book that ends with all main good characters dying, and general success of the "bad side", but actually I expect ASOIAF to end this way). And honestly I really doubt they will stop the Desolation by killing every single Voidbringer there. There is always some smarter way to do that (at least in books), like defeating the main bad guy, etc. 

It isn't to all peoples tastes but S.M. Stirling's novel "Snowbrother" was along those lines.  I'm not sure if it is still in print.  Also look up his alternate history Draka series if you want intelligent, practical, vile and successful villains.  I have heard that he had conflicts with Jim Baen over the issue of his letting bad guys be so successful before he jumped ship from Baen.  Though from what little I have read of him in the past fifteen years he seems to have drifted away from that type of thing.

Edit : I should mention that there were two versions of "Snowbrother." The second version toned down the evil significantly.  As for the first version.  Well here is a quote from one analysis I found on line.

 

In the first version of Snowbrother, it was very much as if Stirling set out to create a story that was completely and consciously anti-moral fiction... one in which the bad guy not only won out over the good guy, but did so in the most ethically reprehensible and utterly nihilistic, anti-humanistic manner imaginable, as well.

So yeah...Not nice.