Arondell

I disagree with this interpretation. The way I understand it is that being bonded to a living Shardblade allows one to heal a Shardblade cut, while being bonded to a dead one does not.

Well the specific quote is :

 

The question this raises is about Szeth being stabbed by a Shardblade, then being resuscitated. I’m sad to lose this sequence, as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

If he was referring to the ability of a bonded blade to heal the wielder then it is indeed a very confusing way to state it.  I didn't think he was referring to the honor blade since it was never alive in the first place.  Also at least two of the honor blades should have the regrowth surge that should enable such soul healing for the wielder.  Indeed that is part of the lie that Taravangian used on Szeth.  So yeah, I am now unsure. 

Well thanks to the recent changes to the end of Words of Radiance we know that a living spren blade is supposed to have some sort of healing effect on the soul when killing that a dead one does not.   Mr. Sanderson said that loosing this was the one aspect of the changes that he regretted but he would just have to find a place to put it in latter on.

I felt both the Nohadon vision and the in-world Words of Radiance hinted that the Knights hadn't always been restricted by the Oaths.  I have the impression that before the oaths were put into effect they probably were not even an organized group but just surgebinders whos only restrictions were the very general intents of their spren.  Now at least even Cryptics have to follow the still very broad direction of the first oath.

Do you REALLY think that a small minded and petty man like Roshone would leave Kaladin's family alone after he and Tien went off to war? The bromes would be needed more than ever after. When the bully publicly beats the tar out of the only person standing up to them, the result is continued cruelty, not a cessation of hostilities (eg, townspeople will continue to not pay Lirin, more greed driven thieves that are less scared of reprisal, etc.)

I don't think I ever said Roshone would leave Lirin and Hesnia alone.  It also seems quite possible that Lirin might have sold some of the bromes to get supplies.  I'm just pointing out that we don't know what the situation is.  Does Lirin still have the bromes?  Did he sell some of them?  Did he sell all of them?  What I meant buy them not needing them was right now when Kaladin returns.  Kaladin now has enough resources at his disposal to take the financial pressure off of his parents.  Even assuming he doesn't call in any favors from Dalinar.  Also as I pointed out all of this could now be irrelevant with the coming of the Desolation.

If Laral is married to Roshone, then giving her the original gems may be equivalent to giving them to Roshone. 

Kaladin does have gems, but I don't think they are really his.  They have been lent to him for the journey, but I think they belong to the kingdom.  I doubt he will be giving them away to settle an old debt. 

My point was that if Kaladin still had the intent to pay back the value of those thousand diamond bromes he could just as well give the actual bromes back.  Outside of surgery what did Lirin need them for now?  As for them effectively going to Roshone I'm not sure what the issue is at this point.(Personally I would think it would give at least a little satisfaction to be able to hand them back because they didn't need them anymore.)  The ones Kaldin borrowed to get to Hearthstone didn't even enter into my thinking on the issue.  Kaladin could easily support his parents on his bodyguard/captain salary.  Perhaps he could ask Dalinar for a favor and get him to donate another thousand diamond bromes to replace those.  Given how many times Kaladin has saved members of the Kholin family I think Dalinar would see that a pretty minor favor.

Of course this might all be moot.  We have to find out what the situation is in Hearthstone before we can do anything more then wildly speculate.  Oh and the new Desolation has arrived.  So even if everything had remained static in Hearthstone up until now it probably isn't anymore.

It's weird.

I still hold out hope that maybe Cultivation intervened to make this possible.  It certainly falls into an area that would involve her intent.  Mr. Sanderson has gone to some effort to maintain real world laws of nature where he could so I cringe at the idea that species with such different biochemistry could successfully produce offspring without supernatural intervention.

In WoK when Kaladin finds out that his parents DID steal the money from Laral's dad, he vows to pay Laral back one day.  We know he's got a bag full of huge, dung gems.  Maybe he'll just pay her back and be done with her.  Though in that scene when Tien is recruited he thinks about "saving" her.  It is his personality to want to do so.  But I don't think/really hope he won't risk his bond with Syl for revenge again.  That would be stupid.

Typos not withstanding that kind of depends on what happened to those diamond bromes since Kaladin left Hearthstone.  If Lirin still has them then Kaladin could just suggest he simply hand them back.  It isn't like he or his parents will likely need them.  Of course with the coming of the Desolation this might all be moot depending on what has been happening since the Everstorm hit.

I meant I doubt the king actually bothered to pardon Dalinar for any potential crime as the Alethi society did not see them as crimes per say. The written law may disagree, but the Alethi have a loose way of interpreting their own laws.

That is...a highly speculative way of looking at it.  I guess my view is that at this time no one has stated, implied or even hinted that Dalinar is currently guilty of being in violation of any of the laws of Alethkar.  Either currently or in the past.  Explicit or implicit.

Assuming Naln is still hunting surgebinders he would have a very difficult time both finding an excuse and getting the authority to kill Dalinar.  Another thing that the Lift interlude made clear is that Naln needed to have the authority to carry out such an execution.  He actually had a leave of execution to kill Lift.  In whatever nation he is operating in he must follow the local laws.  Even Amaram, who publicly admitted to outright murder, was due a trial.  So even if Naln could find a crime to pin on Dalinar he still couldn't just walk up and kill him out of hand.

Now whereas Dalinar was pardoned or not is irrelevant: the Alethi society does not frown on open murder as long as it is not too obvious. I thus doubt Nale would struggle very hard to find a good legal reason to execute Dalinar.

 

It is possible he has changed his strategy. Somehow, I was hoping to see him come for our heroes, just to spice things up.

Actually as the Lift interlude shows being pardoned is extremely relevant.  Also the kings power to pardon has been shown to be effectively unlimited.

Doesn't it say somewhere in WoK that Laral's parents and Kaladin's parents were basically arranging their marriage?  Sorry, I can't quote it exactly with the audio books.  I think Laral wasn't happy about with marrying Kaladin as a dark eyes, but I think she likes him if you take out eye color.  Therefore- go to war and win a shard and everything's fine.

 

That said, I don't dislike her.  She's kinda a tragic character.  I feel bad for what happened to her.  But I don't think she deserves Kaladin.   

I think your looking for this line.

 

“An accomplished young surgeon of the right rank could draw the attention of a poorer noble family, one who wished money and acclaim. It happens in the larger cities.” Kal glanced up at the mansion again. “That’s why you encouraged me to play with Laral so much. You wanted to marry me off to her, didn’t you?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 364). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

It doesn't seem like a formal thing.  It seems more like Kaladin's and perhaps Wistion got them to interact in ways that would encourage a marriage.  That all went out the window with Wistion's death.

I'll add that I'm not really hoping that Kaladin rekindle any kind of romantic relationship with Laral.  Not because I dislike Laral or that she doesn't "deserve" him so much as that just seems like a part of his past life that he has moved on from.

Darkness wants to kill the surgebinders as they emerged, but he needs to have a legal right to do so. Based on this, I do think his next target could be Dalinar. Dalinar has certainly committed enough crime in his lifetime as a warlord to warranty himself a legal execution. Shallan is not a bad guess either, but the truth about her murdering her parents may be hard to uproot by Darkness.

As the "Blackthorn" it is implied that Dalinar was rather brutal on the battlefield and in subduing his opponents but that does not equate to illegal.  Indeed he was apparently admired for this in Alethkar.  If in the past Dalinar has actually committed some explicitly illegal act I would bet money that he has long since been pardoned.  Something the king has apparently unlimited authority to do.  Any Radiants among the royal family of Alethkar would be very difficult targets for Naln because of this.

I would add that with the arrival the desolation Naln may well be changing his strategy.  It was implied in Lift's interlude that he was hunting potential surgebinders because they could return desolation to Roshar.  With the arrival of the Desolation why would he continue?  Also at the end of WoR I had the distinct impression that the Shin leadership was now at the top of his list.

For the moment I'm inclined to give Laral the benefit of the doubt about her behavior.  We were never really shown what her life was like after her father died but I'm betting it wasn't "blossoms and cake" under Roshone's guardianship.  Particularly after Rillir died.  She certainly had no power or authority to do anything to help Kaladin or his family from Roshone's campaign of persecution.  I suspect Odium's influence in that whole situation.

This has been discussed before and I don't recall any general consensus being arrived at.  Based on the last scene of her in Kaladin's flashback and length of time involved it seems likely she is now married and children are a possibility.  She probably isn't very happy though.  Roshone being a living happiness sink in my opinion.  It is all speculation though since we have had exactly no information about Hearthstone since Kaladin left there.

I also still suspect Roshone might have some Odium investiture working for him based on that scene at Roshone's dinner table when his eyes seemed to almost glow.  Very suspicious turn of phrase that.

Has it been stated Hoid will be playing a major role in SA? Currently, he is a very, very, very minor character. A popular one, yes, but I would not even rate him as a secondary character. I have always assumed his role would remain peripheral in this series, just as I think Zahel will be.

Just beacause Hoid doesn't get a lot of screen time doesn't make him minor.  He has already shown the most amazing ability to show up at pivotal moments and influence outcomes.  Likewise Zahel has had a number of influential scenes.  (e.g. Advising Kaladin to take the action that would let him sleep.)

It's definitely Kaladin in the back.  He's holding a spear and has the Parshendi bone shield slung on his back.  Plus, he's not wearing shardplate.  Zoom in, and you'll see what I mean.  Not Eshonai.

You get a Word of Brandon or Peter backing that up and I'll agree.  Until then I'm going with that distant character being Eshonai.  Neither scene had a highstorm approaching either.  As the cover of Words of Radiance shows a novels cover is rarely perfectly accurate.  I'm betting they gave a general description and Whelan drew what he envisioned.  One isn't picky when Michael Whelan agrees to do your novels cover.

I kind of had the vague impression that Hoid was in part surprised by Shallan because of something Heleran had told him.

 

“Your father is slowly destroying your family,” the messenger said. “Your brother was right on that count. He was wrong about everything else.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 526). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

We know that Heleran sought out the Skybreakers and from Lift's interlude we know that the Skybreakers as they exist now are actually hunting down surge binders.  I have the feeling whatever Heleran was wrong about is somehow related to Shallan's surge binding.

Well my favorite looking back to the early 90s would have to be Star Control 2.  A combination exploration, resource gathering, adventure that had a great deal of humor while still being a fairly serious overall story.  It also had a great ship vs ship combat system.  The original developers also graciously allowed the fan community to revamp the game and release it with an upgraded soundtrack and distribute it for free some years back.

If I want to go back into the eighties things get a bit less clear.  I played a lot of good ones but none stand out as the single best to me.  A few that stand out as classics that were great are Archon, MULE, and just about any of the text based adventures from Infocom(e.g. Zork, Planetfall, Wishbringer) and Sierra On-line.(e.g. Leisure Suit Larry, Space Quest)

While I do like the little touch in how Mr. Sanderson portrays such curse words I did feel he overplayed it in the case of Steelheart.  I found it kind of odd that the new curse words had already completely eclipsed the old even among those people who would have been adults long before Calamity even showed up.  In all his other stories the cultural origin of the curse words is long established for centuries if not millennia. In Steelheart the cultural basis has only been around for around twelve years.  It just seemed a bit jarring to me that the curse words of the old society would have been so thoroughly supplanted.  At the very least I would have expected some older people doing a bit of eye rolling at the young peoples vocabulary on occasion.

In a sense there is a force that locks a shard in place if they stay in one location long enough.  In this case it is their own power.  Once it gets a chance to seep into an environment it is apparently very hard to get it back out.  So if a settled shard wants to move then it either has to leave some of its power behind or go to great effort to yank the power out.  I think this might be related to the reason why Odium is now currently trapped.

Don't look at it as Honor having been destroyed.  It is all still there just in little pieces without a central focus.  The original holder is dead but the power of the shard is still present.

 

Just a few quick points, because I don't have the time for a longer post: how exactly is the group who robbed the palace fitting for 'forgotten' one? They were an organized group of thieves. 

I'll use a quote from Tarvangian.

 

And so we must bring the forgotten and the lowly. Those who will not be missed.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 976). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

We are disagreeing on the requirements for an individual to be chosen by a specific sprens. If I follow your argumentation correctly, you are supposing exhibiting a given set of qualities is not enough. If I follow your logic correctly (and correct me if I got it wrong), the individual would need to maintain at least the second oath before having a Nahel bond and a guiding spren.... If I understood you properly, then I cannot endorse this line of reasoning as it would imply the first oaths have no purpose. No learning involved there as the person should already be maintaining them before even stepping foot on the path to Radianhood.

 

It does not make sense. Saying the oaths is tied to growth as a Radiant. You can't grow until you are one...

As for your example of Kaladin, you are forgotten how much he has progressed since early WoK. His initial reaction upon joining the bridgecrew was not to protect anyone, but to survive. It took Syl and a gruesome experience near the edge of a chasm to open his eyes to what he should be doing... Without Syl would Kaladin have pulled it of? Without the guidance of the spren having already chosen him, an individual who was currently failing at following the second oath he had not said yet?

 

It seems I'm looking farther back then you are.  Kaladin started protecting long before he was made a slave.  It started when he followed Tien into the army.  After Tien died he became obsessive about his spear training for the purpose of protecting.  It was made clear by Syl that that is what finally caught her attention.

 

“They would have died more quickly without you. You made it so they had a family in the army. I remember their gratitude. It’s what drew me in the first place. You helped them.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 161). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Prior to the battle, before he was made a slave, when he "bought" Cenn the squad leader specifically questions his actions.

 

“What do these recruits mean to you, anyway?” Gare called after Kaladin. “Your squad is half made up of men too small to fight properly!

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 666). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Also during the battle itself.

 

He could not be stopped, not when he felt like this. When he had the energy of defending the fallen, the power of standing to protect one of his men.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 668). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

So long before Kaladin was standing next to that chasm he had already exhibited traits and attitudes in line with the second oath.  Syl specifically states it is what finally drew her too him.  It took most of a year of brutal abuse and failure to reduce Kaladin to a suicidal state and, yes, Syl drew him out of it and convinced him to give it one more try.  That doesn't mean he wasn't inclined to do so before he got made a slave.

Does the first Oath have a purpose?  I would say yes but it is not entirely clear what.  The first Oath is a bit of an odd ball.  It is the only one that surgebinders don't need to figure out for themselves and is required by all regardless of personal philosophy.  My guess at this time is that it is a kind of initiation oath that simply promises adherence to the Knights overall philosophy and allows passage to the later oaths.  One comment by Taravangian does imply it has some level of importance on a practical level.

As for Gawx's relationship to Lift, he was neither a friend or acolyte before they entered the palace.  For that matter she largely viewed him as a bit of a pest.

 

She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back.  But this was who she was, who she had to be.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 704). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

As for Lift not exhibiting any care for the forgotten as I define it, a primary reason she went along with Tigzikk rather then going alone was to help him out if he got into trouble.

 

“Tigzikk found out about this whole election thing,” she said. “He told me tonight was a good night for sneaking . I owed it to him. Besides, I wanted to be here in case he got into trouble. I might need to help.” “Why bother?” Why indeed? “Someone has to care,” she said, starting down the hallway. “Too few people care, these days.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 692). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Lift does not have the ability to solve the inequalities of all of society.  She is trying to help the lowly where and as she can.  In my view if Adolin is of a similar mindset then he could be doing a lot more in this matter then he is currently doing with enormously more resources.  Is Adolin callous or uncaring?  No.  On the other hand he doesn't really pay it much attention unless the situation is right in front of him.  This is, in my opinion, a critical difference.  Lift actively seeks out such people and situations.  Adolin does not.

In regards to Adolin's sword I never really questioned it being an Edgedancers blade.  It seemed reasonable based on the description when it forms from mist.

Question: Do we have a WoB that Lift's Oath is the second one for the Edgedancers and not the third?

 

Because if not, it seems likely to me that Lift's Oath to remember the forgotten is actually the third Oath for the Edgedancers, with the second being yet unknown. I base this on Lift claiming she had bound the "voidbringer" with words (oaths) and her already having a much finer control over her surgebinding than anything Kaladin displayed pre-oath. 

 

This is relevant to the topic at hand because while Kaladin always had an urge towards protection, he definitely did not feel inclined to protect everyone, even those they hate. So even if proto-radiants have to live up to/aspire towards the second oath of their order before a spren will get interested in them (something I find dubious to begin with), they definitely do not need to live up to the third. Not right away at least.

 

 

That said, I do think your interpretation of Lift's oath is overly strict, and most of the other details thus don't really matter. Others posting here have made very solid arguments for Adolin as an Edgedancer that you seem to be discounting out of hand largely due to it conflicting with where you expect the story to go.

There has been no Word of Brandon on whether the Oath stated is the second or third.  Until and unless there is such a WoB I'm going with it being the second.  As for my expectation...Err...I don't believe I have stated anything about where the story will go.   I have expressed skepticism on how likely Adolin is to turn out to be an Edgedancer based on my interpretation of forgotten and his behavior as I see it.  I guess that could be a direction I, at the moment, think it probably won't go.  Beyond that I don't think I have stated any expectations or likely directions Adolin or the story in general will take.

 

Besides, I do not think Radiants have to follow their oaths until they said it. Lift only said her oath at the end of her interlude, so it could be her behavior will change afterwards. Adolin has said no oaths yet, but he has shown the potential to be this person who cares about the forgotten. He could be this person. No doubt actually saying the oath would change him int he same ways saying his oaths changed Kaladin.

Adolin has shown potential to be a variety of things.  I simply feel your putting a bit too much emphasis on the attributes and not enough on the oaths.  Of those Radiants who we have experience with they showed a distinct tendency towards behavior in line with at least their second Oath.  Even before Kaladin became a slave he showed a strong desire to protect the weak.  Dalinar shows a strong desire to unify.  LIft exhibits a desire to help those who are largely ignored by society.  Adolin, while showing generally honorable behavior, has not shown any particular emphasis, in my opinion, to helping those who have been otherwise forgotten by society as a whole.  Using my perhaps overly strict definition of the "forgotten".  The only hints(foreshadowing) I see that might be an indicator of him becoming an Edgedancer is the rather vine like appearance of his blade before it snaps fully into the physical realm.  A blade he appears to have formed a stronger then usual emotional attachment to.

 

 

Since we are drawing the parallel with Lift, I would say she is not handing soup to the poor either. In fact, she never even entertained the thought to use the riches she stole to help the poorer people. However, she has shown she cared about others. So did Adolin.

Minor point here Lift doesn't steal money.  She only steals food.  It is unclear if she ever stole anything but food.  Another one of her rather amusing quirks.

 

“I’m going to eat their dinner,” she said, soft but intense. Gawx blinked, startled. “You’re . . . what?” “I’m gonna eat their food,” she said. “Rich folk have the best food.” “But . . . there might be spheres in the vizier quarters. . . .” “Eh,” she said. “I’d just spend ’em on food.” Stealing regular stuff was no fun. She wanted a real challenge. Over the last two years, she’d picked the most difficult places to enter. Then she’d snuck in. And eaten their dinners.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 691-692). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.