Arondell

16 minutes ago, Extesian said:

If the sample chapters are in order I'll read them, otherwise nooooo way.

Pretty much this.  Assuming you have read all the prior material I don't view them as even counting as spoilers.

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't understand people. Why downvote Maxal for stating something that makes sense from the publishers perspective? 

They may have made exceptions in the past, and likely will here at Brandon's request, because he has some weight to throw around. 

We definitely aren't getting this much because the publisher wants it though. 

Who knows?  Depends on what the person thinks the purpose of the system is.

As for Tors position on sample chapters they have been, comparatively, slow adopters of e-books.  Baen by contrast jumped in with both feet early on and understands that posting the first quarter of the book isn't giving the work away.  It is getting their customers hooked on literary crack.   Generally making the customer base very happy and by extension increases the probability of purchasing.

I don't doubt it will be announced if/when they do it.  Just keep an eye out on the Tor site, here, or Mr. Sandersn's blog a couple months before release.

A quarter is the amount of chapters that Baen usually posts for its books.   So I can see that happening.

Strangely, I have a similar but kind of opposite reaction in my impression of what you were saying.  My impression was that you were saying that without the bond Kaladin has no real skill with the spear at all.  That his capabilities were entirely due to the bond.  Given that he trained almost fanatically for years in the army I find that hard to accept.

My perception was that Kaladin was at least very competent with the spear and when it was combined with the bond it enhanced him to superhuman levels.  Which is what both Syl says and Teft believes.  Which is again why I'm looking forward to getting my friends in Boston to ask Mr. Sanderson about it at the Boston signing.  Explicit clarification would be nice.

I'll say again that Teft is obviously not an "expert."  That being said he obviously knows more then the average person.  Enough that he was able to recognize what was going on before Kaladin himself did from a few clues that no one else noticed.

Other then that...Your are again correct.  Their really isn't anything more to say. 

Awesome video of an F-16 launching from a full stop to 15,000 feet.  Nice music for it as well. 

Kaladin's abilities: You point out Teft saying a thing, and then follow it up with a simple, "This is corroborated." Is it? I do not believe it is. Nowhere in either book is there evidence that Kaladin's skill is wholly natural, and there is a ton of evidence that it is not. Do you have any of this corroborating evidence? We all already knew that Teft claims to be an expert; the question now is, is he? Teft's own self-assessment is not, I think, an unbiased source.

 

The final passage, about Radiants having every power... note at the end, Teft is cut off. I notice you don't include the next few lines, wherein Kaladin says, "That's can't be true, why would someone both flying if they can just teleport?" To which Teft replies first with silence, and then, "i don't know."

 

The statement is NOT true in and of itself, because it's obvious Teft believes every Radiant had every Surge, and we know that's false. If Teft knew that different Orders had different abilities, presumably he would have said that, instead of saying he didn't know how his obviously contradictory statement could be true. I'm not talking about it invalidating everything else he says; my argument is not, "Teft doesn't know literally anything about the Radiants," my argument is, we cannot accept something as true just because Teft says it is. The fact that he has a few details right, but others wrong, is evidence that he cannot be trusted blindly when he tells us things we don't yet know are true.

 

For the other two points... those are vague, and incredibly minor. in fact, for one of them, I'm not actually going to accept that "a large organization made up of people had a bit of internal conflict" is a "fact" that Teft is special for knowing. So basically, I'm conceding that Teft was aware the that Knights swore oaths.

 

Compare this to him being wrong on Kaladin's skill, him being wrong on every Radiant having every Surge, him having no idea how a Radiant Invests... The original contention, which I disagreed with, is that if Teft says something is so, we should accept it as likely until proven false. He's been wrong more often than he's been right. If he says something about the Radiants, I'm prepared to accept that it might contain some small measure of truth, once separated from the chaff of his misunderstandings and false convictions. I am not willing to believe it is simply true.

 

And it's worth pointing out, from the quote above, the whole "squire" thing isn't even based on anything Teft knows by being an "expert". He admits, he's only saying it because he's been hearing about Dalinar's visions. This isn't even Envisager lore! Literally anyone who has read the same text knows as much as Teft does.

 

Finally, I'm a little miffed that you cut off your quote when you did. You must've read the next few lines and realized it cut your argument to shreds. The fact that you included it anyway, trimmed to erase context, is poor form.

Kaladin's ability is corroborated by Syl.  Explicitly.

 

“So everything I’ve done,” Kaladin said. “My skill with the spear, the way I fight. That’s not me. It’s you.” “It’s us.” “It’s cheating. Unearned.” “Nonsense,” Syl said. “You practice every day.” “I have an advantage.” “The advantage of talent,” Syl said. “When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 613). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So, as I also said in the other thread where you discussed this, two in world sources, one which I do view as an authority on the subject, agree on this.  I'll need either a word of Brandon or something in world explicitly countering this to believe otherwise.  I was hoping at the time to get some friends of mine in Boston to ask him at the signing, that was unfortunately cancelled, about this.  Fortunately there is another one coming up next month where they will get a chance to do so.

I'll include the extra here for completeness and form.

 

“I don’t know anything about using the Stormlight,” Teft said, scowling. “But I know what should happen.” “According to stories that contradict one another. You’ve told me that the Radiants could fly and walk on walls.” Teft nodded. “They sure could. And make stone melt by looking at it. And move great distances in a single heartbeat. And command the sunlight. And—” “And why,” Kaladin said, “would they need to both walk on walls and fly? If they can fly, why would they bother running up walls?” Teft said nothing. “And why bother with either one,” Kaladin added, “if they can just ‘move great distances in a heartbeat’?” “I’m not sure,” Teft admitted.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 830). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

My apologies if you felt I was incomplete.  I still feel he was not trying to firmly assert that all the Radiants could do all things.  As you pointed out he himself was unsure about that. He understands the limits of his own knowledge.

As for the last two points you claim they are incredibly minor and "vague".  I'm perfectly willing to concede the very minor point.  I'm not as willing to concede the vague point since I see them as specific pieces of information that the general public didn't know and regardless of how minor and vague they were they were still correct.  Is Teft an "expert" on the Radiants?  Hardly.  His knowledge is imperfect, incomplete, and very limited.  Something he is clearly aware of based on several statements he makes.  Though he has shown enough correct knowledge of the Radiants that I'm not willing to automatically assume anything he says as wrong.  Back in that other thread I recall you basically stating that you automatically assumed him wrong unless proven otherwise.  Which I thought was overstating the issue.

As for his knowledge of squires your totally right.  It is clearly based on his personally witnessing some of the members of bridge four glowing and listening to some of the readings of Dalinar's visions.  His guesses are reasonable supposition based on that and not special prior knowledge.

On the five ideals of the Knights Radiant.

 

“Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. That was their motto, and was the First Ideal of the Immortal Words. There were four others.” Kaladin raised an eyebrow. “Which were?” “I don’t actually know,” Teft said. “But the Immortal Words—these Ideals—guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every order of Radiants. But the First Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 831). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Regarding the orders interacting with each other.

“Do you know much of the others?” Teft had been the first one to figure out what Kaladin could do. He’d known before Kaladin himself had. “Not much,” Teft said with a grimace. “I know the orders didn’t always get along, despite what the official stories say.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 158). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Regarding the nature of Kaladin's abilities.

 

Teft had only a fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. It perfected.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 928). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Each of these is corroborated by at least one other source in either Way of Kings or Words of Radiance.

I believe the part your referring to is this.

 

Kaladin rolled his eyes and sat back up. “Why am I listening to you? You’ve admitted that you don’t know any more than I do.” “I don’t know anything about using the Stormlight,” Teft said, scowling. “But I know what should happen.” “According to stories that contradict one another. You’ve told me that the Radiants could fly and walk on walls.” Teft nodded. “They sure could. And make stone melt by looking at it. And move great distances in a single heartbeat. And command the sunlight. And—”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 830). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

This statement is true in and of itself though imprecise and certainly does not invalidate everything else he says.

Did he? I don't recall him saying, "They were glowing because they are your squires, which b-t-dubs is a thing." I think he just said, "I saw some of the lads glowing," without explanation. Do you have the quote?

 

Also, I think my views on how reliable Teft is when it comes to the Knights Radiant are pretty well-known by now.

I believe this is the relavant quote.

 

“Kal,” Teft said, voice getting even softer. “At the end there, right before you arrived . . . Storms, son, I swear I saw a couple of the lads glowing. Faintly, with Stormlight.” “What?”“I’ve been listening to readings of those visions Brightlord Dalinar sees,” Teft continued. “I think you should do the same. From what I can guess, it seems that the orders of the Knights Radiant were made up of more than just the knights themselves.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1047). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

As for your views on Teft's reliability when it comes to information about the Knights Radiant.  Well...It would be nice if you could site a single example of any statement he made about the Knights that was incorrect.  Every example I've been able to find of his assertions has been, so far as I have been able to determine, accurate.  His knowledge is obviously incomplete but what he does know, and has mentioned, has been accurate.

One does not simply fall out of the sky through two hurricane-level storm systems (or worse), slam into solid rock, and not die.

He just got brought back fast enough.

He was not brain dead as Naln points out.

 

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1062). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So I guess it comes down to how you define death.  I, personally, define it as past the point of no return.

I think that Renarin's initial(Pre-oath) bond with Glyss formed some time back.  I had the impression that all the various nahel bond spren started searching for people to bond with around the same time.

 

Anyway, my reason for posting is this: I have undoubtedly missed important stuff, easter eggs, cameos, etc in my read through. I come to ask you all to share with me stuff you loved most about the series thus far, something you think I should be aware of, or any and all haikus. 

Thanks in advance!

Well one point that you might not be aware of is that Mr. Sanderson has changed the ending of Words of Radiance.  In the changed version Kaladin does not kill Szeth.  Szeth allows his bond to his blade to be severed and "dies" falling into the storm.

I disagree, as the WoR epigraph of chapter 42 reads "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

It has also been made explicitly clear that the in-story Words of Radiance is unreliable.  It is my feeling that Nohodon's words in Dalinar's vision provides a better look at the situation.

 

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 849-850). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

This seems to strongly imply that it was Nohodon that sought a way to make the Knights better through the oaths.  The prior desolation was over and Heralds would have left until the next desolation.  So at least at that time the Heralds had not yet instituted the oaths and it would likely be centuries until they would have another opportunity too.  If it was Ishi'Elin and not Nohodon he, at the very least, waited an entire desolation cycle to actually institute it.

The information is sketchy but my impression from this vision and from parts of the in-story Way of Kings is that the Knights were actually founded by Nohodon and the Urithiru likely built during his life time.

The Radiants arose independent of the Heralds or the Oathpact.  Because of this I'm not particularly inclined to assume there is any direct connection between the Oathgates and the Oathpact. 

 

On the side line, do we have confirmation Skar was one of the bridgemen who was glowing? Was Teft ever near him to have seen it? Just asking, just because.

I don't think we have confirmation, other then Lopen, but there are a few I would be willing to bet money on.  Skar, Rock, and Teft I'm certain with a high probability that all the original surviving members of bridge four with the obvious exception of Moash.  The big question in my mind is whether or not Rlain will be able to infuse.

 

 

Also not sure how meaningful a revelation like that would be. Both the Davar parents are dead. Shallan's status as a radiant is MUCH more important to the Kholin's than her being a legitimate child of some defunct Vedan house. And her surviving brothers are too emotionally indebted and attached to her to care much that she's only a half sister.

 

It wouldn't really be about how great a revelation it would be to anybody but Shallan.  Particularly since it involves issues of family which seem to matter a great deal to her.  Yeah its tricky.  We simply don't have enough information yet.  I'm certainly not going to go to any effort trying to convince anybody.  I just think it is an interesting possibility at this point.

I guess I just expected more grief. Some sort of outward acknowledgement that this was a terrible thing to happen. As it is, I think associating a lullaby with the act of killing her mother probably did more damage to Shallan's psyche than actually being upset would have. Honestly, the fact that he could just shut his emotions off like that freaks me out a little, and it makes me wonder if there was more happening in that household even before Shallan started showing signs of being a Surgebinder.

Actually I'm positive something was happening.  Recall that Pattern was attracted to Shallan before all this went down.  At the moment I'm wondering if Shallan was actually a member of the Davar household.

 

“Shallan Davar?” he asked. “Um . . .” Was she? Oh, right.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 440). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“Mmm. Yes, and you are a lie. A powerful one.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 888). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“Veil is the false identity, Mraize,” Shallan said. “I am me.” He inspected her. “I think not.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1055). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

It is only a strong suspicion at this point.  Though one with good cause I feel.

 

I also strongly believe Kaladin is a horrible match for Shallan. I do believe he is a bad match in every single way, but I do not have time to detail it now. In any advent, it seems pretty useless. The forum is rooting more heavily for the Kaladin/Shallan ship so bringing more arguments for the Adolin/Shallan one seems completely pointless. 

I actually have a similar sentiment.  If perhaps not so strongly felt.  Shallan is bonded to spren who loves lies and using truths to create deception(Cryptic).    Kaladin is bonded to a spren who reveres truth and hates lies even to the point of being unhappy when truth is used in a deceptive fashion.  These attitudes are reflected in part by there bonded partners.  These differences in personality do not make for a stable long term relationship in my opinion.

Actually when Shallan speaks her third truth it is strongly implied that it was Shallan that killed both her mother and the man she was with.  Though I agree with the sentiment that both Lin and Shallan were basically suffering from traumatic information overload.  Normal reactions just aren't under those circumstances.

 

Her mother’s friend lay on the floor, bleeding from the arm, though that wound hadn’t killed him. Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1059). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1059). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Perhaps.  Shallan at least seemed to feel that there was a good chance that any possible future children they might have would have a mix of all three.  That and there were at least a couple statements in WoK that indicated that Alethi hair always breeds true in proportion so it seems a high probability that any children would have at least a noticeable number of black hairs mixed in with the red and blond.

 

That indicated foreign blood in her family’s past—Alethi hair always bred true, proportionate to how much Alethi blood you had. Foreign blood would mean stray hairs of another color.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 752). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

I believe that the hair would be a proportional mix of the parents.  Shallan does comment at one point that their children would have the strangest hair.

Uh... in the book, it's flat-out stated they are significantly worse than muggers. They are at the least murderers. It is implied with the subtlety of a ton of bricks that they are guilty of far darker crimes even than that. Her actions may have skipped due process, but the punishment is absolutely no worse than what they would almost certainly have been sentenced to.

This is why I have never had much issue with Jasnah's actions in this matter.  To me it seems that most of the objections don't seem to be about whether or not these people deserved what they got so much as how Jasnah went about doing it.  Since it is also made clear that the normal methods of law enforcement were being circumvented I have no objections to Jasnah's actions or methods under the circumstances in evidence.

To me it seems fairly obvious that the humans of Roshar have a number of odd biological traits.  I have never seen any kind of verification of this but I suspect that Rosharan life spans are longer then human normal.  Cultivation's influence perhaps?

Edit : Though most of the cases that cause me to wonder about this also have stormlight possibly skewing the issue.

I believe that Kaladin mentions he has hit his twentieth birthday in Words of Radiance.  So that would make him about 22 Earth years of age.

Your not doing well on the ignoring.