EvilNuff

I don't think anyone mentioned it but Kaladin in chapter 31 uses windspren to deflect the storm which made me think of manifesting plate:

Quote

    A hundred windspren spun in as lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons.  They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin’s sides and parting the winds around him.
    Kaladin stood with his hand toward the tempest, and deflected it. Like a stone in a swift-moving river stopped the waters, he opened a pocket in the storm, creating a calm wake behind him.
 

First off, the oaths are not set in stone.  They can and do vary from knight to knight within a given order.  I base this statement on the oaths we have seen for Windrunners being different for each person.  Given that I think it is a fair assessment to say that the Edgedancer oaths are around remembering and listening to those forgotten/ignored/etc.  You already gave three great examples of how Adolin personifies these traits and there are more, the way he stood up for Kal after the lopsided fight in WoR is one that comes to mind.

As for Stonewards we don't know terribly much so far.  Adolin does not sacrific himself.  He isn't the type to reconcile between opposing parties, on the contrary he is more of an instigator.  

I actually think the information you gathered helps argue for him becoming an Edgedancer over a Stoneward.

Torol Sadeas makes for a spectacular corpse!

Such a hard decision for me.  Probably Dalinar right now.  Adolin and Lift are close contenders as well as is Syl.

45 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

This is unlike any of the Nahel Bond spren, which do not go into their companion. Which likely means Renarin is not bound by the Oaths. Which may explain why his Regrowth from the Thunderclast attack was so much faster/stronger than Lifts.

There are ample examples in the books that different orders which share a surge have it behave differently for each order.  The Truthwatchers first surge is progression and the Edgedancers second surge is progression. That alone explains why Renarin and Lift's regrowth are different.

I loved the book, I thought it was much better written than Words despite having a less satisfying climax.  In no particular order things I liked and disliked:
 

Loved Maya, I think Adolin is fantastic with his sword.

Loved seeing Vivenna, I'm assuming her sword was created similarly to Nightblood just less psycho?

Loved Dalinars story arc.  It broke my heart when he went back to drinking.

Ehlokar is just a tragic figure, he wants to do better but just cannot.

I hated Shallan in this book.  Reading her chapters was just pure torture for me.

I want more Jasnah, she is so much more interesting to me than Shallan.

I am torn whether I feel sorry for Venli or not early and happy for her at the end or not.  On one hand she brought the about but on the other she suffered quite a bit as well.

I absolutely hated that Renarin lived.  Ugh by far my least favorite Sanderson character ever and I was so hopeful that Jasnah would do the right thing and kill him...ARGH!

I absolutely *love* that concept art.  

This is terrible news! Normally i like BS characters but Davids bad puns got old really quick. Not to mention that Mizzy-character he introduced in Firefight. 

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You and I, my friend, have diametrically opposed views.  I loved Mizzy and the bad puns were the absolute best thing about the books to me.  I want more just for those!

Those are very cool indeed, thanks for sharing.

...I just like theories that are both simple and could explain multiple mysteries, and as you can see by my examples above the Likeness Limit is one such theory. It could still be wrong, of course, and I would welcome any counter-examples.

Absolutely, and I have enjoyed reading your theories in this forum.

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Death Trigger Rule: Problem, presumably the only way to kill Megan permanently is burning her alive, aka using her weakness.

As I recall after Megan burned herself intentionally at the big fight at the tower, Prof's goons are about to shoot her and David and David mentions something to the effect of, with her power temporarily negated if she died it would be for good.  So burning her alive is one way but negating her powers and killing her conventionally would be another.

I love the thought that went into this post and I appreciate you sharing with us.  However:

 

 

One might prefer to believe that this quirk has no implication beyond Steelheart. If that's what you think, that's perfectly okay, but you might want to stop reading this post. Anyway, I theorize that this insulation effect applies to other Transfersion-type powers, and is therefore a general rule for Transfersion:

I do think that it is a very large stretch to assume that the quirk of Steelheart's metal insulation extends to all transfersion type abilities so the rest of the theories here just read as not something I agree with.

I justo finish the book, I like it a lot but I also think that the end was rushed.

I have a lot of questions mostly of the last chapter

Tia was finnaly alive? Why prof said that they have to call her when the spacestation was falling.

Mizzy became an epic? What was the text that knighthawk send them that make david say that comment about her.

And of course a ton of questions about firefight dimensión, how david died, why his father told firefight that he kill him. What about prof? And without larcener why Atlanta was still salt, and more important why he didnt stay in that universe.

Any ideas??

(sorry for my english, but I just have to create this account to ask this questions)

My interpretation about Tia is that she was still dead but Prof had momentarily forgotten:

 

“I knew this thing was too low for such an orbital speed!” Prof shouted. “Sparks. We need to call Tia and…” He grew pale.

He grew pale because he had forgotten that she was dead.

The quote about Mizzy was:

 

She showed me a message she had pulled up from Knighthawk.

 

“Mizzy?” I asked.

 

Megan nodded.

 

“Sparks. I wonder how she’ll take to being an Epic.”

From that I interpret that Knighthawk was just filling them in on the happenings in Ildithia (sp?) since they left.

...I personally hope David and the other Reckoners will still be in it and possibly be main characters.

Agreed, I need more bad similes!

I loved this book with the exception of the ending, though I do love that we now have conformation that the Faithful were literally waiting for Superman.

 

Edit: I don't understand, however, why David gets the Steelheart powers if he was almost made into a water-powered Epic in Firefight. 

This is just from memory but as I recall in Firefight Regalia asked/suggested for water powers and Calamity said he would get something thematically appropriate.  Obviously since he killed Steelheart, getting those powers fit that bill.

The quote about Chicago dogs in Mitosis is pretty funny...despite the fact that Chicago dogs are disgusting and ketchup is required for any real hot dog.

I thought she was kind of awkward in AoL, but then she was excellent in SoS and BoM. I feel kind of like I had the same experience falling in love with her character as Wax - from "who is this strange woman I don't understand her" to "OMG YOURE ADORABLE". I'm not sure if it was planned that way, but very cool.

Very well said, and I agree completely...delightful post. 

I have two main complaints about how these stories were written.  (Also just want to point out that I love the series so even though I have complaints I still highly recommend the books to friends.)

First, the way Jasnah was "killed".  It was obvious that that as a character she had been built up too much, there was too much unresolved backstory and information to just kill her.  However, she had far too much information that, from a narrative's perspective, Shallon needed to discover on her own.  I just feel the way that it was handled was sloppy and transparent.  Brandon is a far better writer than this and it really bothered me.

Second, the entire character of Renarin and how others interact with him.  As written, he is a bigger problem for house Kholin than Sadeas and closer to a villain than Sadeas.  That is obviously not the intent of the character so again this is just extremely poor writing by Brandon in an otherwise fantastic book.  

I hate to break it to you, but I think its all but guaranteed that the Voidbringers are the Listeners bonded to Voidspren, Chasmfiends having nothing to do with it. ...

I think there are multiple types of voidbringers.  I suspect chasmfiends might be another type when bonded with other voidspren.

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The Bond making Desolations worse is a possibility.  But it doesn't cause them.  Desolations predate Radiancy.  (Heralds were created to fight the Desolation, and spren copied the Heralds to create Radiants later.)  To somehow get the idea in your head that committing suicide and killing your best friend at the same time would stop the world from ending is--it's insane to me, especially since it's the actual opposite of what Radiants are supposed to believe.  Especially since we know that getting rid of Radiants won't get rid of Desolations, because Desolations predate Radiants.  Without Heralds, should another Desolation come, Radiants are the only thing that stands as protection for humanity. 

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Yes I am well aware that desolations were pre-Radiant, I mentioned that in fact.  Given what we know and my INTJ brain, my train of logic is as follows:

1. Given what we know of Kaladin & Shallon's bonds, in the time of the Radiants I cannot fathom that they did not know what breaking their oaths would mean.

2. I cannot fathom that almost all of the Knights would suddenly turn evil and abandon the things they held dear.  Given that and #1, the only way almost all of the Knights would take such a drastic step as to break their oaths, killing their spren, has to be because they believed it would be for the greater good.

3. I have to believe that only a desolation would be significant enough to warrant that drastic an action.

4. It seems like this happened somewhat suddenly, all at once so to speak, so I am assuming that something happened or was discovered that prompted this drastic huge change.

Hence my guess that the Knights intentionally broke their bonds, probably with their spren's consent to be honest, in order to lessen the desolations.  Given #4 my guess is they found out that 9 heralds broke their oaths and this was their plan to lessen the effect of the desolations so humanity had a chance to survive with only 1 of the 10 heralds.

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The problem I have with your idea is a timeline.  Radiants were still around at the end of the Final Desolation (prologue from WoK.)  The Recreance happened a significant, but unknown, amount of time later.  However, there's nothing to suggest that the parshmen were still a threat/antagonists during this time. 

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I'd like to point out that the Radiants didn't "give up their Surges willingly."  They murdered their closest friends.  At least, based on the relationship that we see with our examples (Kaladin and Shallan primarily, with hints towards Lift and Renarin), the Bond between spren and Knight is great.  Also remember that "the choice of honor is life."  Not murder, not death, but life.  The Recreance was a very visceral abandonment of the primary tenet of what Radiants are.  I refuse to believe that some paltry conflict or war that would, by definition, be less than a Desolation would cause this.  They might choose to fight the war, sure, but murder innocents/best friends?  No.  No for the Parshendi, and definitely no for the Knights.

 

Syl knew what Kaladin was planning, and was powerless to stop it.  She died.  It's likely that the spren knew what the Radiants were planning, but they themselves couldn't stop it, and were unable to break their oaths that helped to form the Bond.  After all, the oaths of men are fickle things.  (I'd swear that's somewhere in-book, but can't find it now.  So, alas.  Perhaps I made it up?  Or it's from somewhere else?)

Given what we know of the bond's between Radiants and their spren I think it is reasonable to assume that the Knights knew what they were doing when they abandoned their oaths.  They knew that they were killing their spren.  The spren likely could not stop them but I think that is somewhat irrelevant.  Given what the Radiants are and stood for, and given that entire orders of them choose to break their oaths, something incredibly dire had to have been discovered/happened in order to prompt such a wide spread act.

My theory is that the Nahel bond forming Radiants has a counter part with the listeners.  That the act of creating the Knights expanded the voidbringers, probably with multiple/additional types which made the desolations even worse than pre-Radiant.  The knights likely discovered that the Heralds broke their oathpact and they collectively decided to break their oaths in an attempt to stop the desolations from returning.  

I belive that one of the 10 orders is still active in Shinovar also and that their bonds are what allows the listeners to still bond with some of the forms they have.  If all 10 orders had broken then the listeners would all be consigned to dull form.

Just my 2c.

Maxal you make some good points, responses below...

I disagree. Jasnah was not a character I personally found very developed after reading WoK. Her parts were read from Shallan's perspective and my thoughts, at the time, were Jasnah was a secondary character to Shallan. I did not dwell onto the forums back then, so my perception was entirely that of a casual reader, one that loved the book, but did not look for more on the Internet. When she died, I was surprised she would die this early, but I was not shocked as she was not important enough for me to be shocked about.

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My dislike of Renarin has absolutely nothing to do with his autism.  My dislike of him is because of his personality and selfishness.  He is the son of a major power and he needs to support his house and family.  Throughout the first two books he repeatedly displays sheer stupidity over and over again and endangers his entire house!  He has a "blood disorder" that renders him unsuitable for military training yet he insists on continuing to avoid any other calling.  His brother and father love him so (assuming that Brandon has a complete picture of him in his head/notes) his personality cannot be as bad as shown to the readers through the first two books.  

Shards, as described, are critical to military success so when Dalinar gave his plate, Renarin should have declined it so it would actually be used.  When Adolin started winning shards he again should have declined a blade so it could be used by someone in Dalinar's forces who would be more effective.  Keeping either or both of those was pure selfishness and an act that makes Renarin more like Sadeas than Dalinar or Adolin.  He actively weakened his family, after they were already dealt a harsh blow at the Tower, by keeping those shards!  That is the worst action depicted so far in the books by anyone other than Sadeas towards house Kholin!  

When he did take the blade and heard screaming he should have immediately told his father and renounced the blade and plate.  It was obvious he could not wield them.  His father had visions, he would be receptive to Renarin experiencing something extra-natural.  Those shards in the hands of a fighter would have meant who knows how many house Kholin soldier's lives being saved on bridge runs after he received them!  So we already have the 2nd greatest villain to house Kholin before this making his betrayals even worse.  Just think about it, Renarin's selfishness is directly responsible for more Kholin deaths than Amaram's betrayals.

Finally the duel.  By joining the duel he prevented someone else who could have helped from joining in the fight.  He knew that he could not fight (because of the screaming) so by joining he significantly increased the chances that Adolin would lose.  It is probable that he did it out of love for his brother, but that incredibly serious lack of judgement is further proof that he has no business being a shard bearer.  It is one thing to be emotional if you can back it up with ability, but Renarin has neither.

I have no doubts that as he grows as a Radiant his character will change...but to date his the greatest (still living) villain for house Kholin. I suspect that Brandon intends a very strong redemption story for him but it remains to be seen how many books that will take to play out.

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What I would have done differently all involve, or revolve around, Kaladin.  He was super-angsty Broody McBrooderson.  I had finished a re-read-through of WoK around an hour before I started WoR.  The first 1/2 - 2/3 of WoR, he seemed to be following the exact same character arc as in WoK.  Issues that I thought were fairly well addressed by the end of WoK were suddenly the only thing he lived for.  I wasn't expecting him to be throwing fetes for Lighteyes, but Harmony, I figured there'd be less active as well as generalized/non-specific hate.

 

The Kaladin-Moash thing didn't feel organic or real to me.  It felt like there was a scene Brandon wanted to write, and he started there, and tried to force a path that had that scene as the end.  Even if this works many times, it was not a great success here.

 

The book was supposed to be Shallan's.  And while she had great moments, she had nothing to do with the climax.  Her role in the climax was solving some riddle/puzzle to the Oathgates.  And relatively little time was spent on that, in comparison to Adolin's fight against the Parshendi or Kaladin vs. Moash and later Szeth.

 

Kaladin gets another glowy explosion after saying an Oath, where we immediately start learning more about this whole Radiant business.  Shallan gets forced to see a vision that isn't the root cause of her becoming a Radiant, and this isn't explored at all except for her to tell Pattern that she hates him.  (Possibly in earnest, possibly not; we can't even tell how she really feels, because it's not explored at all.  Hard to explore it in a few paragraphs as an anti-climax, though.)  

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Great post, thanks!  I really agree across the board with you here and I think you phrased my frustrations with Kaladin's journey in WoR better than I could, thank you!

The eyes, I picture Szeth as asian and cannot shake that image.

Spoilers follow:

I feel that the Jasnah scenes were just poorly written.  She was too well developed a character to kill off that quickly with too many unanswered questions.  Similar to the end of a Dance With Dragons there is too much build up (R+L=J for example) that would be wasted without something happening other than what was visibly described.

With Jasnah and Szeth both coming back now nobody feels in danger to me.  I need several major characters to actually die to regain that sense of potential danger.

Renarin is a truly horrible character.  As described he is a shallow, 2 dimensional character.  He is incredibly selfish and actively detrimental to his family.  As depicted so far he has been more harmful to the Kholin's than anyone but Sadeas!  Brandon will have to take a 180o in describing him in future books for me to see him as anything but just a terribly written, incomplete character.

I think book 1 has the downward spiral Kaladin goes on carry on a bit long.  It feels pretty drawn out, ultimately the redemption at the Tower is worth it, but it felt dragged out.  I also felt that he reverted a bit in book 2 and regressed some.  This left me wondering what Syl saw in him at times.  I have to assume it was potential more than anything else. 

I'd personally prefer her staying evil at this point in the game so that we at least have a familiar pov for void binding. I'm really rooting for Rlain to become the Listener radiant, I'm a huge fan of his.

I do not believe Listeners can or will become Radiants.  My personal speculation is that spren bonding with humans, forming the Radiants allowed Odium to bond void spren with Listeners and form more varieties of Voidbringers.  I believe the recreance was the Knights intentionally breaking their oaths, with their spren in agreement, in order to stop Odium's voidbringers from being as powerful/numerous.  Incidentally I also would not be surprised if 1 of the 10 orders kept their oaths (in Shinovar perhaps?) and that is what allowed the Listeners to retain the ability to bond to spren for the forms they did have, albeit in reduced numbers.

Just speculation on my part of course.

I think its definitely a squire thing.  If he had a spren of his own that would have been called out/shown.  Further there were specific mentions of Windrunner squires and Kaladin had just spoken a new oath.