Denissimo

I have not. It seems fascinating. I'll have to get it specially ordered to read it, but I shall try.

(I don't like online reading)

Nice. The imagery has a fascinating duality.

I just sent a friend request. Can't message you otherwise. (or maybe I can? Its also been a while since I've been on.)

I must be off. Examination tomorrow, and it's ridiculously late to the point that it's early and the examination is now today.

You needn't accept the discord if you aren't comfortable. It'd just be a bit easier for messaging. I find your theological arguments very productive.

Well,  that is a matter of interpretation. I argue that in order for a place to be a realm that lacks all suffering, a realm of purity and justice, it would lack those emotions.

The second point is in fact one of my primary  arguements in regards to contradictions in christian scripture.

I'll never deny the potential of a realm after death, similar to heaven. But I do deny the "christian" heaven, given how it is written.

Have you any easier platform of communication? Ah, I see you have Discord. Do you mind if I add you? For ease of communication.

There is a difference between morality and the purity I am arguing.

I’m not arguing against moral growth or empathy. I’m arguing against purity as an ideal. I don’t think human “shadow” automatically means cruelty, selfishness, or harm. I mean grief, anger, contradiction, fear, desire, imperfection, the parts of ourselves we often exile in pursuit of being “good.” I still think we should pursue compassion. I just don’t think becoming less human is the path there.

And I feel being less human is the path people tend to take, with their (sometimes self) imposition of values which can never be truly fulfilled. Or at least, I did. 

I see. 
Purity is something I vehemently reject as a general whole. Little is absolute, least of all humanity. And it saddens me how we try to turn to an inhuman ideal of light and goodness, instead of learning to simply embrace the shadows that govern our home. And perhaps we'll find that the darkness was never cruel.

I... hope. But, I don't believe no. 

What perspective are you referring to? Can you clarify a bit?

Ah. I think I can see where a misunderstanding is arising. 

I'm not saying that you believe human value is based off how pure or inherently morally good they are. Just that you are accepting of the concept of there being an existing and achievable (through god) absolute good, absolute mercy and morality and love which god represents.
And I presume you agree that humanity is inherently flawed, contradicting, never fully moral or "good" (this is what I mean by impure). But you believe that such a thing is attainable through attunement with god.

The main difference in our beliefs I think, is my rejection of the "absolute good" (heaven) being a (heh) good, achievable, or even desirable thing. 

Ah, we've reached a good point now, I think. I like to call this the "threshhold of opinion".

The point where the arguments essentially boils down to conflict no longer in logic or reasoning/perspective, but base beliefs.

Thus, all that I think we can pose to another are iterations of "I disagree". 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong:
You believe that absolute goodness and absolute evil can and do exist, and can in a human context. That humans can cross that infinite length through acceptance of god, and become pure while wholly themselves.

That appears to be the "core" of your present arguments.

I believe in not just the existence, but inherent value of our impurities, and that absolution and certainty are impossible and inhuman.

Thus, I think we've reached the core conflict between our views.

Anything to add, or any questions?

On your first point:
Then my question becomes whether rejection itself can be eternal. If God’s mercy is infinite and Satan’s refusal is finite in origin, why should refusal remain forever fixed? Does evil become permanent? If change and redemption exist for humans, why does transformation end at Satan?

On your second point:
Hitler is interesting precisely because he stresses the system. If sincere repentance before death is enough, then I struggle with the proportionality. A person who commits immense evil but repents late may receive salvation, while someone morally decent but unconvinced may not. That makes salvation appear tied less to lived humanity and more to final orientation.

On your third point:
I agree that fear, pride, hatred, and self-interest can be taken to extremes. My hesitation is whether that becomes absolute evil, or simply extreme distortion of human motives. Humans rarely seek evil because it is evil; they seek what they believe is justified, necessary, deserved, or good. That makes me think conflict is more fundamental to humanity than pure evil.

My issue is not goodness. My issue is with the assumption that humanity reaches fulfillment by becoming singular. Are contradiction, ambiguity, and incompleteness  flaws to transcend, or conditions that make us human in the first place? If Heaven removes them entirely, I’m left asking whether humanity is perfected there, or transformed into something else.

On your question at the end:
However you wish. Both would be interesting, certainly.

Now, one thing I must make clear: This is not an effort for me to disprove christianity. I was aware of these contradictions while I was still vehemently attached to the faith. 

It's just something that saddens me a little bit about our values in these matters. I still had faith despite the awareness of these contradictions, and it wasn't as if I ignored them. I remember seeing it as us trying to interpret God's world, forcing it into human categories, dichotomies, and simplicities. 

Let me pose a few questions:
If sanctification, or absolute good, removes the possibility of evil entirely, what remains of choice? If one cannot deviate, is goodness still moral, or simply necessary? 

On mercy and the limits of compassion:

This brings me back to Mark Twain: “Who prays for Satan?” If God’s love is absolute and mercy is universal, where does that mercy end? Satan is not important here as a figure to defend, but as the extreme case. If compassion stops at the most fallen being, then I begin wondering whether mercy is truly universal, or whether evil eventually becomes stronger than compassion. That being said, a line appears to be drawn as to "absolute good". Theoretically, "absolute good" and thus "absolute mercy" should encompass all beings, yes? But now, you've introduced "absolute evil". So, that overrides compassion and goodness then? Does evil and cruelty take such precedence such that certain people become exceptions?

On the idea of absolute evil:

I also struggle with the concept of absolute evil itself. Human beings rarely act from evil for its own sake; even terrible actions usually arise from fear, pride, ideology, grief, self-interest, love twisted into possession, or a belief that one is justified. I’m unsure whether pure evil exists in human terms at all. We seem less like creatures of absolute malice and more like creatures of conflict.

On purity and humanity:

My disagreement is not with goodness, but with purity understood as complete singularity. Human beings are contradictory. We grow through uncertainty, tension, mistakes, compromise, and change. If perfection means never deviating, never conflicting, never failing, I wonder whether something distinctly human is lost in the pursuit of it. Perhaps humanity is not something to transcend, but something to understand.

On complexity versus transcendence:

Ultimately, the question I keep returning to is this: why should complexity be treated as lesser than purity? Why should ambiguity be seen as deficiency rather than condition? Religion often asks humanity to look upward toward transcendence, but I keep finding myself looking downward instead  toward earth, contradiction, roots, and the imperfect places from which compassion actually seems to grow.

I forgot to put spoiler boxes, so I opted to simply paragraph it a bit better instead.

Doneskies. 

One thing I will say is much of my arguments are based on the inherent conflict within, and my disagreement with the dichotomy frequently portrayed in Christian scripture (Good vs Bad, Heaven vs Hell). Perhaps you disagree with the very existence of such a dichotomy. If so, then we should discuss that first. Otherwise, we'll just be arguing semantics, which is boring. 

I agree. Perhaps you can be the one to do so.

I'd like the hear that one day. Definitely give it a go, I think.

Ah, Breaking Benjamin. That takes me back (Ach Mein Gott I sound old). Dance with the Devil was big for me.

A bit slow paced, but I really liked it. 

In fact, I got to get into again. Its been a while since I've listened to rock.

Ever heard of Skillet, or Bullet for my Valentine? They lean into more Alt-metal than rock though. Thousand foot Krutch too.

That's great. Just listened to it.

The vocal-instrumental balance is a bit unconventional for mainstream and even alt metal, which I prefer. 

A good playlist. Some songs were to slow paced for me, just due to my personal preference (DATUM), but most of the others had some had some lovely riffs.
"I will always burn the bridge you try to make..."
PYTHON was great.

I'd like the reintroduce another quote, as a means to argue one of my more vehement views (when combined with the mark twain quote.)
 

May the muses guide thine finger placements.

Ah. Mark Twain, it 'twas.

It mainly stems from a more satirical philosophy.

What 'twould you like to discuss? I too am curious now.

Hoorah. I applaud your lung capacity.

Blowing into one of those things is like breathing through a squashed straw. Horn-players are simply a different breed of human.

I haven't seen this yet. I'm a bit late, but happy I did.

Here lies a hidden gem... you cover basically all the points here. And wrapped it up neatly in an anecdote.

I'll likely end up sending others to this post. So, if comments begin to pile up, sorry. Might be partially on me.

"On the mo-on and sky..."

I appreciate that.

I got some inspiration from Leras, from mistborn.

Many thanks. I drew it using a laptop touchpad, so I;m proud of how it turned out.