Jult

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

10 minutes ago, NameIess said:

I had the impression that she was going offworld, possibly to start a Shadesmar trading company.

That's what I thought when I first read it, but when I did a second look it never said one way or the other. I personally still think she left, but she could still be on Roshar.

Yeah it's not completely clear what her plan is, but it could involve leaving Roshar. Even if it does though, she decided to implement it on Day Nine of WaT. So, she didn't have much time to get offworld. Not saying she couldn't. But it would have been tight.

Giving some more thought to the Heralds breaking. I do not trust that they all have good intentions (looking at you, Battar). Could one of the Heralds "break" on purpose as a form of sabotage?

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

BAM or Sja-anat does something, I think this is the most likely. And honestly I'm quite excited to see what happens.

As soon as you said "everyone" was locked in their current situation, my brain went "except BAM". I agree with you that she is most likely to make the first big move.

13 minutes ago, Deception said:

Yes, probably, but the question is how they will do this without instantly getting killed my Retribution.

My guess is Honor will push back on any attempts by Taravangian to harm BAM. It really didn't like it when Tanavast betrayed her. 

There are some other smaller parties to consider as well:
-Axindweth is presumably in custody. She likely has allies who might come for her. 
-The Nightwatcher is around somewhere and I suspect Cultivation left some instructions for her.
-The spren societies (like the Honorspren at Lasting Integrity or the Cultivationspren in the Ring) may have something to say about all the recent activity. The creation of Retribution, the new Oathpact, the departure of Cultivation, and the curious case of the Unoathed (especially Notum) all seem like they'll really shake up spren society.
-Rysn is floating around with a Dawnshard right within Retribution's reach. She went into hiding with the Sleepless but I doubt we've seen the last of her.

When the Cosmere RPG first released, I did a bit of a dive into abilities that seem Order-specific. They (mostly) aren't outright stated to be Resonance abilities. But they were still interesting to dissect. Checking it out could help with your theorizing:

14 hours ago, chipofIsharsblade said:

also do you think you can split warlight back into stormlight and voidlight to get new stormlight for radiants?

I'd bet on yes. Navani was able to split the illumination given off by Towerlight into the colors that corresponded to Stormlight and Lifelight.

Quote

When she tried the prism experiment with this light, two separate rainbows of colors -distinct from one another- split out of the prism.

She couldn't recombine them. When she tried sending the colors through another prism, she ended up with one beam of white-blue light and a separate beam of white-green light, overlapping but not combined as Towerlight was.

-RoW 65

She herself admitted that this was different from actually splitting the Lights:

Quote

"I couldn't get Lifelight and Stormlight to recombine, but I don't know if this counts as truly splitting them apart - as I've only split their radiation, not the pooled Light itself."

-Navani RoW 65

But I think her experiments at least imply that un-mixing them is possible.

She compared the behavior to two emulsified liquids. Like forcing oil and water to mix. Most emulsions can be separated in some way.

On 5/29/2026 at 7:13 PM, Frustration said:

I've recently noticed an uptick in the amount of interest in the double eye chart, especially as it relates to Truthwatchers due to their position opposite of the Bondsmiths.

As a big part of that uptick, I thank you.

On 5/29/2026 at 7:13 PM, Frustration said:

I therefore propose that just as Bondsmiths hold the powers of Connection, Truthwatchers hold the powers of Fortune.

I strongly agree. I often see people associating Renarin's visions with the fact that Glys is Enlightened. And, while that probably has some impact on it, I do think Fortune has always been part of the Truthwatcher toolkit to some degree. Brandon has mentioned that Truthwatchers are more closely linked to the Spiritual Realm than the other Orders (except Bondsmiths). Which I think supports this idea as well. 

While we are on the subjects of the Double Eye and Truest Surges... Something else that bothers me about the Double Eye is there's some asymmetry to Honor's truest surge and Cultivation's truest surge both being on the right side. Might just be me, but my brain really wants them to be in mirrored positions. Which got me wondering if the Surges that do mirror them (Tension and Illumination) have anything to do with H+C. And it's almost just the opposite. 

I'm a little tempted to throw up the idea of Illumination being Honor's "falsest" Surge or some other catchier name. Basically, the Surge least aligned with Honor's Intent. I doubt Liespren resonate well with Honor.

Similarly, that would make Tension Cultivation's "falsest" Surge. Which is a tougher sell to me.. I guess you could say Tension makes things less susceptible to change. And Peakspren are probably the least fluid of the True Spren.

I'm sure this has all been said before somewhere. But maybe there should be some implied axii along the diagonals of the Double Eye to represent alignment with the Shardic Intents? 

1 hour ago, coldfuzion76 said:

Ok, I need to go back and re-listen to that scene, apparently! Lol. I really appreciate the detailed explanation of all of that, those mechanics make more sense to me now. I figured I hadn't been the first to ask that! 

But a showdown with Kaladin and Moash in their current forms is something I'm looking forward to anyway. 

You're welcome. Another fun fact you may find interesting: using multiple Honorblades, bonding multiple spren, or some combination of the two would potentially give you access to new abilities by mixing Surges that aren't normally mixed.

Quote

Questioner

If a Radiant uses an Honorblade or binds a second spren, could they get new abilities/resonances by having access to Surges that aren't usually combined?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they could. Indeed.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

You're referring to this WoB, I believe:

Quote

Lotus

Can we get any pronouns for Aona and Skai?

Brandon Sanderson

Aona is definitely a she/her. I had— Mmmmm. I’m gonna go she/her with both of them, so you can talk about them accurately. That’s how I picture them currently in my head. I have not written those books yet, so it’s subject to change, but I have she/her for both of them.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

And this artwork for Shards of Creation:

Brandon said in the WoB that he hadn't 100% made up his mind on Skai but was leaning towards she/her. My guess is he changed his mind.

22 minutes ago, coldfuzion76 said:

I know Moash has what would be his Honorblade.

Actually, Kaladin manifested his own Honorspear when re-forging the Oathpact. So, I think he doesn't really have a connection to Jezrien's old blade.

24 minutes ago, coldfuzion76 said:

I'm really curious what is going to happen, since none of the original Heralds were bonded with spren on their own and drew thier powers from their blades.

Nale actually was bonded to a spren in addition to holding his Honorblade. Brandon has said that this makes you a bit stronger, but probably by less than you'd imagine:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

27 minutes ago, coldfuzion76 said:

For that matter, what would happen if he held a different blade? Would he have those surges in addition to his current ones?

Yes. Brandon has even said you could get access to all 10 Surges at once if you collected the right Honorblades. I think we saw this a little with Szeth. I don't fully recall which ones, but I think he used some of the Honorblades in WaT - despite being a Skybreaker.

Quote

Aradanftw

Let's say you wanted to be the Mistborn equivalent of a Surgebinder, having all ten Surges, would the best way to do that to bond at least five Honorblades or can you bond more than one spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You could bond five Honorblades. That'd be the easiest way by far. Because convincing multiple spren to bond you is going to be really tough, so by far the easiest way is just to get... you'd actually need all ten Honor... No, you'd need five Honorblades for the five... Yeah.

Aradanftw

You'd have to get the right ones.

Brandon Sanderson

You'd have to get the right ones and then you'd have all ten. 

Aradanftw

And then, there's nothing wrong with bonding five individual Blades? You don't have to have five arms?

Brandon Sanderson

You do not have to have five arms. You could bond five Blades if you wanted to.

Aradanftw

Really cool. Thank you.

Brandon Sanderson

Particularly Honorblades. 

Aradanftw

They're special.

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

11 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

They *are*. They talk about it in the book when discussing being able to use anti-Stormlight to hurt Enlightened spren.

Ah well there goes that theory. I guess it's Cultivationspren after all. Thank you for finding the quote.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In addition to Moridin's quote, we get this in Rhythm of War:

Quote

The spren had been watching him, from the heart of a cremling. Rlain and Venli had mistaken Tumi for a Voidspren, but he wasn't exactly the same thing. Once an ordinary mistspren, Tumi had let Sja-anat touch him, and in so doing make him into something new. A spren of both Honor and Odium.

Your point about them being in the center of the Double Eye is definitely interesting, and as the WoB you included says, their powers are different in ways that are similar to how Bondsmith powers are different. So there does seem to be something special about them, but it doesn't sound like being pure Cultivation is it.

And thanks to you as well. Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep looking for oddities related to Mistspren/Truthwatchers, but it looks like I was chasing the wrong lead.

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's also weird that Honor was able to impose oaths on that order's bonds. I mean, the book says one is purely of Cultivation while it's careful to say "almost" for honorspren, so presumably one is really purely of Cultivation, but something sorta odd is going on there.

I would assume Cultivation consented to letting her spren be bound. The oaths were kind of her idea anyway. I'm not sure if this is the same section PanLin was referring to but it might be. WaT 113:

Quote

"WE CAN INTERACT," KOR SAID. "IF WE HAVE LIMITS."
"WHAT LIMITS DO YOU PROPOSE?" RAYSE ASKED.

SHE HELD OUT HER HAND, AND EQUATIONS APPEARED ABOVE IT, MANIFEST IN NOTATIONS WE COULD INSTANTLY UNDERSTAND. ONLY A PORTION OF OUR POWERS COULD BE GRANTED TO MORTALS - WITHIN DISTINCT CONTROLS. THERE WAS VERSATILITY, I SAW, AND GENIUS IN HOW IT WAS PRESENTED. ONE COULD GRANT GREAT POWERS TO INDIVIDUALS, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO BEND TO DIVINE RULES AS WE DID. OR INSTEAD, LESSER POWER COULD BE GIVEN INDISCRIMINANTLY TO MANY.

Looking at this now, it almost feels like direct manipulation of Tanner and Rayse from Kor. She gave them two options for meting out powers, and one was obviously designed to appeal to Honor.

Another thing worth noting from that chapter is that Kor also enters this agreement. I feel like it's often characterized as a pact between Honor and Odium that she just happened to be there for. But it's her pact too. 

I always viewed Rayse's targeting of Aona and Skai as convenience more than anything else. He was looking for Ambition first and just happened upon them breaking the agreement that the Shards made and settling the same planet. It gave him an excuse to attack them without provoking the other Shards. A tactic that worked based on Edgli's response (OB Epigraphs 37, 39-41) and the fact that no one came after him.

Quote

You mustn't worry yourself about Rayse. It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish--violating our pact from the very beginning.

No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement.

As for Uli Da, it was obvious from the outset that she was going to be a problem. Good riddance.

Regardless, this is not your concern. You turned your back on divinity. If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with. And so will you."

It's probably why he went to Roshar too. Kor and Tanner also broke the rules. So, he would have been "justified" in removing them.

Don't forget his goal was to take out all of the other Shards. I don't think he had a special interest in removing Devotion in particular - he just found himself in a position where he knew he could get away with it.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Fringe theory, but what if there were originally 10 'cityspren' (I've been calling them Advancementspren in my notes)? Odium could've originally intended to turn all 10 into Unmade, and simply failed to get to and corrupt the Sibling. The Fused occupying Urithiru could just have been them trying to finish the job.

I've seen this idea before. And I do like it quite a bit. However, I think it's hard to reconcile with the Tanavast quote alder24 put above:

Quote

THE UNMADE, IN PARTICULAR, WERE GROWING IN STRENGTH. HE HAD HIDDEN THEIR CREATION FROM ME, AND I FOUND THEM UNNERVING. MY RADIANTS COULD DO GREAT THINGS, BUT WERE KEPT IN CHECK BY THEIR OATHS. HIS FUSED WERE MORE LIMITED—LEAVING HIM EXTRA STRENGTH HE COULD GIVE TO THE UNMADE.

If the Unmade were the cityspren, I feel like it would have been nearly impossible to hide their creation from Tanavast. Unless Tanavast just really wasn't paying attention. 

Master_Moridin makes a good point too. There are a few hints that the Unmade aren't all spren.

2 hours ago, PanLin said:

Agreed; Wind, Stone and Night are effectively Adonalsiumspren. H+C didn't modify their rhythms to match Roshar; Roshar was spiritually adapted to include them (which happened again when the Oathpact trapped Odium in the system).

I think alder24's idea of the Ancient Spren already having similar tones to H+C because all Investiture aligned to one of the Shards at the time of the Shattering is the best idea for getting around this.
 

Side note: I feel like sometimes we conflate tones and rhythms in these discussions. Being able to actually hear these things would be nice.. Describing sounds is hard.

15 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

Truthwatcher position comes out of the Herald order

There was originally going to be more to their position on the chart, but Brandon felt he was getting too into the weeds:

Quote

TGJack

The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

My feeling is that, despite him not committing to it, there's still something important about Truthwatchers compared to the other orders in his head. 

15 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

the Enlightened mistspren are a mix of Honor and Odium.

They might be. I know the Enlightened Cryptic and Inkspren that we saw in WaT had Honor in them. But I think that's because normal Cryptics and Inkspren were made by Honor. If Mistspren are the one variety that Kor created by herself, then normal Mistspren would have no Honor. And neither would enlightened ones.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Yep, same deal. I'd wager they're close, like maybe even 95%, but none of the Radiant spren are purely of one Shard, like how Seons are almost but not entirely chunks of Devotion.

See but I would interpret this bit:

Quote

WE STARTED WITH THE FIRST SEVEN, THEN ONE VARIETY WAS BORN OF KOR ALONE.

to say that one of the Radiant spren is purely of Cultivation (though their ability to use Stormlight admittedly raises some questions). I think that variety will be very important. Because it should be safe from Retribution's influence even without the protection of the Oathpact. Which might be a point in favor of Cultivationspren, since most of the Mistspren we know are corrupted. But I can't shake the idea that Mistspren matter more.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

I created this diagram in another thread to help visualise what I mean. There also seems to be a general pattern of Honor-leaning Radiants focusing more on Connection and Cultivation-leaning Radiants focusing more on Identity, but that isn't the important bit here.

I remember this! I'm pretty sure it was the start of my descent into this Mistspren rabbit hole.

2 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I mean, you have to consider what would happen on our planet if the existence of other populated planets in a cold war existed. Even if there was a straight up invasion, the only really unified governance that could happen is a UN military command. In a scenario similar to the Cosmere, many countries, and even political parties, would favor opposing sides.

I'm not sure a real-world example would translate well to the Cosmere. Most of these planets only have far less governing bodies than Earth. Take Sel. As far as we know, it's 3 Empires and 2 independent nations. Getting 5 political powers to unify against say, Retribution knocking at their door, feels pretty within reach.

42 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

But yes, it does seem like the general trend is towards consolidation.

It kind of has to be for the sake of the story. Even Roshar's 31 nations were essentially boiled down to 2 main alliances by the end of WaT. The average reader won't keep track of that many moving parts. I swear there's a WoB somewhere where Brandon talks about simplifying the Alethi government by removing most of the highprinces for a similar reason, but maybe I just imagined it because I cannot find it.

I could see 2-3 factions per planet, but it starts getting too complicated beyond that.

6 hours ago, all_cats_are_windrunners said:

DUSTBRINGERS: Division. These two are my least favorite. Dustbringers (as far as I’m aware) seem to turn things into “dust,” so, that makes sense, but what’s going on with the Skybreakers.

Not sure if this makes it better or worse for you, but Dustbringers don't even like the name "Dustbringer". They prefer to be called "Releasers".

28 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Nah, I'm saying that depending on how the debacle with Autonomy goes, fighting Autonomy may push them to Scadrial. Or, if Autonomy succeeds, they'll be more Taldain aligned. Sel's alignment is up in the air, but I suspect it may be split (prob between Fjordell and Elantris & co.)

That makes much more sense. I was afraid I'd missed something.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm also not convinced that several of these planets fully united, as the Cinderking on Canticle asks why no one conquered all of Roshar, and both Northern and Southern Scadrian factions exist.

Interesting. I had thought a bit about Scadrial being divided between the North and South, but for some reason I sort of just imagined most planets reaching a point of unification once a Cosmere-level threat existed. Keeping them divided could be really interesting, albeit confusing. I'm not sure I have the initiative to put together a list of alliances by nation instead of planet. But that might be the better approach.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think that the primary factions are from Roshar, Scadrial, Sel, Dharti, Threnody, Yolen, and Taldain. With the possibility of other smaller factions being in there.

With multiple factions from some of these planets, I would guess? Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel are all currently split into at least 2 factions apiece. Taldain seems split on the light and dark sides. If Dragonsteel Prime is any reflection of canon Yolen, I'd imagine separate human and Sho Del factions. And who knows what's up with Dhatri?

18 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

I think the main problem with your list is that you assume that there are only two powers, and everyone must be under the dominion of one or the other. This is unrealistic—even at the height of the Cold War, there were still major independent powers, that pursued their own interests. Today this is even more the case. So, we should expect something similar in the Cosmere: Sel, Nalathis, Threnody, Dhatri, Taldian, Yolen, etc., all probably constitute their own poles. They may be closer aligned to Roshar, or to Scadrial, but they aren't dominated by them and are capable of independent action.

True yeah I am for sure oversimplifying for the sake of having only 3 groups. And, in most cases, I don't imagine planets being completely dominated. But the idea of truly neutral planets feels unlikely to me. Nalthis, for example, may not officially ally with or swear allegiance to either faction. But I think they'll at least be rooting for one side over the other. For the planets that have the freedom to choose, I'm still interested in knowing who they consider the lesser of two evils. I wouldn't call these full predictions - more of a though exercise of: if these planets had to pick a side, who would they pick?

18 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Brandon has said he is not (right now) writing books during these campaigns.

I think "right now" are the key words there. It'd feel a bit anti-climactic (to me) from a writing point of view to keep hinting at an approaching conflict and then never have one.

21 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

We know from WoB that Autonomy is interfering on Sel, so that opens the possibility for a Scadrian alliance.

So, I did know about Jaddeth. I just wasn't sure how to factor him into things. You think Autonomy would be pro-Scadrial?

27 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

You're forgetting the Night Brigade. The existence of such a powerful and feared force as mercenaries causes me to doubt Threnody's alignment to one side.

I did 100% forget about the Night Brigade. Yeah Threnody is going back in the Undecided column.

31 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Yolen's existence is confirmed in IoTE. The perpendicularity on Silverlight leads to, among other places, Yolen.

Right. I can't believe I didn't make a note about that. I still don't think I can place them on either side though. They probably have the best chance at neutrality.

Sorry in advanced to the astrophysicists who thought this was going to be a science discussion. It's a political one. Sort of..

The Secret Projects, especially Isles of the Emberdark have made it pretty clear that there is a Cosmere-wide war in the future that seems to primarily be Roshar vs Scadrial. And, if Drominad is any indicator, participation is not optional... Unless you have a giant anti-Investiture deterrent. 

So, I'd like to take some guesses at which planets in the Cosmere have (whether willingly or otherwise) joined Team Scadrial or Team Roshar. Mostly just on vibes. But I think it could lead to some fun discussion or maybe people pointing out connections between planets that I forgot/never knew.

Team Scadrial

Canticle - There were Scadrian scientists stationed here and they had alliances with the Cinder King. It's a little unclear how things will proceed after Zellion's intervention, but Roshar doesn't seem to have any foothold here at all.

Dhatri - Kelsier tells Sazed they would make a good ally in TLM. We see Prasanva working for Kelsier already. And an Aetherbound assisted the Scadirans in IotE.

Lumar - This one could kind of go either way. There are some hints of Scadrian culture throughout (though I'd point to the Iriali for that rather than true Scadrians). Also, there's a Kandra hanging out there. I'd say Lumar is at least more likely to be claimed by Scadrial, since there seems to be some method of traveling there from Scadrial.

Mythos - We know almost nothing about Mythos. But Kelsier said it would maybe be a potential ally to Scadrial. Simply by the logic of "the Scadrians got there first", I'm putting them on Team Scadrial.

Komashi - I admit that it's a tenuous connection. But Hoid leaves Komashi via the "Iron Seven Waystation". That sounds Scadrian to me.  

Team Roshar

Grand Apparatus - I didn't get the impression that the Grand Apparatus was under anyone's control. But we know the Sleepless have been agreeable towards Rosharans before and the Scadrians really seem to fear them.

Nalthis - Another tricky one. We know there are Kandra active on Nalthis. And that Edgli is not an Odium fan. But I think the Five Scholars' history with Roshar probably puts Nalthis in Roshar's corner. Especially since Edgli doesn't really seem to get directly involved in Nalthian politics.

Sel - Based on Dalinar's visions, Elantris is going to be a future battleground for Roshar. I think they'll be forcibly conquering Sel to bring it under their banner. Plus, I'm not sure how much influence the Ire have on Sel, but they've got to be pretty sore towards Scadrial in general after Mistborn: Secret History.

Threnody - Ehh... This should probably be in the Undecided section below. But Scadrial's hostile treatment of Nazh in IotE makes me want to give this one to Roshar. 

Undecided

Bjendal - We know virtually nothing about this place other than it's a "primary system" and, as of TLM, the Ghostbloods can't visit their without extreme danger.

First of the Sun - They told both sides to get lost.

Obrodai - Another obscure one. Autonomy has an Avatar there. She does hate Harmony. And she's allied with a Vessel of Odium before. But I don't think she'll be open to a similar arrangement with Retribution.

Taldain - Another Autonomy planet (the main one). It sounded like they had problems of their own during IotE. Not sure how they are avoiding the war. Perhaps they're just advanced enough to stand as a third-party. Starling did mention that they kill Sleepless on sight on Taldain. So, I doubt they're friends of Roshar. And it's pretty clear from Mistborn Era 2 that they wouldn't really be pro-Scadrial either.

Utol - Tempted to give this one to Scadrial since I gave Komashi to them. But also I think it'd be neat to see Roshar take the second planet in this two-planet system. Either way there's almost no evidence in either direction.

Vax - The only concrete thing I know about Vax is that it exists.

Yolen - I somehow know less about Yolen's current state than Vax's. Because I'm not certain that Yolen does still exist.

I've been really digging into the Tanavast chapters in WaT recently and one passage really stood out to me the other day (WaT Chapter 104):

After this passage, Tanavast immediately leaves for Ashyn without finishing the tenth variety.

So, this inspired a few lines of thought. Not sure if any one alone is big enough for a discussion, but all of them together should be.

1. Which variety is 100% Cultivation?

I know the obvious answer is Cultivationspren. But is it the correct answer? Mistspren bother me so much that I could probably make a topic about them alone..

• They are the least humanoid in the Cognitive Realm and can even take fully non-human shape.
• Truthwatchers get an extra special spot in the Double Eye.
• Truthwatcher powers feel more aligned to Cultivation than Edgedancers (future-sight > Abrasion).
• They seem the most open to Sja-Anat's Enlightenment (perhaps because they have no Honor in them).
• Plus, mists don't seem that common on Roshar. But mists do have some larger Cosmere significance (Vax and Scadrial).

2. Honorspren are not 100% Honor

That's it. That's the note. I was under the impression that they were 100% Honor, but he says "almost". It was news to me, so maybe it's news to you too.

3. Did they ever create the tenth variety Kor was envisioning?

My gut instinct is to point at the Bondsmith spren. They aren't affected by people's perception of them; which was one of Kor's main goals for the tenth variety. And Brandon has called the 3 of them one "kind" of spren before (WoB). But also consider:

• They aren't original creations - they're born of Wind, Stone, and Night. Which feels like they shouldn't count to me.
• Tanavast and Kor didn't create them together. We see Tanavast imprint himself onto the storm while Kor is off-planet.
• The Sibling and Stormfather seem nearly incapable of change - which feels like it doesn't meet Kor's vision.

I know Tanavast got distracted and left after the 9th variety was completed. If I were Kor, I probably wouldn't have left the job unfinished. I would have created a tenth without Tanavast.

On 5/15/2026 at 3:24 PM, Frustration said:

He did not, and he even commented during the flashbacks about how he was surprised that Odium had been able to hide their creation from him.

On 5/16/2026 at 8:41 AM, alder24 said:

WaT ch 120:

Oh. Well then. Maybe it doesn't cause as many issues as I thought. I guess, keeping with the current line of theorizing that Rayse did share a tone with Dawn, maybe that extra Connection made whatever was left of Dawn more noticeable to Rayse than the other Shards? I suppose that could explain him finding and unmaking Dawn without Tanavast noticing.

I've been reviewing random passages related to the ancient spren, bondsmith spren, and Unmade. One thing that intrigues me is that the Sibling is afraid that they will be unmade when Odium's forces seize Urithiru. I think this slightly reinforces the idea that the Unmade were once powerful spren. It also would imply that the Sibling understands a bit more about the Unmade than we do.

I've got a bit of a suspicion that the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith will be a Horneater. Mainly because Cultivation's perpendicularity is in the Horneater Peaks. And I think Cultivation would find the Horneaters fascinating because they're a hybrid race of humans and singers - which sounds like the kind of thing that would appeal to her Intent.

Perhaps the Nightwatcher will appear in the upcoming Horneater novella that takes place after Oathbringer? I think it'd be interesting if she chose a Bondsmith before Cultivation left Roshar.

Although, if you're looking for creepy characters to bond her, a Sleepless would probably be high on my list.

Okay, second wall of text to follow up on the stuff I mentioned at the end of my initial post:

1. Would Dawn have a modern counterpart like Wind=Stormfather, Night=Nightwatcher, and the Stone=Sibling?

The modern Bondsmith spren were created by Honor and Cultivation. As I said above, I think Dawn died/deadeyed before Honor and Cultivation even arrived on Roshar. I don't think they were ever even aware of Dawn because Tanavast was certainly surprised by the remains of the 4th moon. However, someone last year did mention that the Lifebrother is a thing, and his name does feel very Bondsmith-y. Still, I think the answer is no. Maybe one will be created in the back half, but I don't think there is currently one.

2. Could someone bond Dawn and become a 4th Bondsmith?

I think yes (although with the deaths of Stormfather and Dalinar, I guess we're technically back down to 3 Bondsmith). It's mentioned that Bondsmiths used to bond to the Ancient Spren before the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Sibling showed up. So, I don't see why Dawn wouldn't be able to make a bond too. They may even serve as an interesting loophole to the Oathpact since they were wholly uninvolved when it was forged. Dawn could possibly be free from the constraints of Oaths. Adolin would be my choice to bond Dawn if someone was going to.

3. Ba-Ado-Mishram

I go back and forth on whether or not BAM and Dawn could be related or even the same being. It meshes well with some of my ideas and clashes with others.

Like yeah it fits well because they both have 'light' themes and BAM looks like a Dawnsinger and there's something interesting to be said about her usurping Rayse if Rayse was already leveraging her tone.

But, also, it throws a wrench in the idea that the Shards don't know about Dawn. Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from. Plus, it kind of raises the question of what the other 8 Unmade are. But I guess other powerful non-bondsmith spren like the Grey Remnant exist so..

4. Other random tidbits

~I'd probably associate Dawn with the Spark Essence. Which is linked to Bravery. Something I normally wouldn't bother to mention except.. y'know.. RoW 113:

~Flamespren have been literally all over the story so far thanks to spanreeds and other fabrials. If Dawn's relationship to them is similar to Wind's with Windspren. Then Dawn could be very in-the-know.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Interesting theory, it makes sense and I like it. I wouldn't be surprised to know that BAM is the 4th primal spren, who either from the very beginning was associated with Odium, or was corrupted by him when he settled on Roshar. She appears as a Singer, which might indicate that she’s as old and native to Roshar as they are.

I agree. It's one of my main suspicions for BAM's origins (though not my only one). I said yesterday that Odium probably aligned with Dawn's tone rather than Stone's. And I think I'd like to double down on that. If Odium was using Dawn's tone and BAM was once Dawn, it would make her seizure of control from Odium make a bit more sense to me. If taking the Well of Control was all it took to steal the reigns from Odium, then I feel like anyone could have done it. But, if BAM was once Dawn... then, in a way, she would have been reclaiming Connections that were rightfully hers.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Shards adapted to tones of sprens, rather their tones were already similar due to the fact that those spren's investiture got assigned to those particular Shards during the Shattering. Wind was made out of Honor's investiture and thus their tone was similar to the pure tone of Honor and that's why Tanavast was drawn to them, the same goes for Night and Cultivation. The Stone could be a mix of both Honor and Cultivation's investiture (just like the Sibling is, who is made out of a portion of the Stone), pure Odium's investiture, or most likely was associated with investiture of a Shard not present on Roshar.

This is beautiful and perhaps the best answer I can think of to some of @Frustration's concerns. 

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think it's more likely that Wind and Night adopted the Tones of Honor and Cultivation, as all shards have Tones, though they are more pronounced on Roshar

But then why 4? Even if the theories about Valor hiding out on Roshar are true the fourth is hers, I feel like her adding a fourth tone to the mix would immediately give away her hiding spot to the other Shards on the planet.

1 minute ago, PanLin said:

Unless this fourth one was killed or consumed even before Honor and Cultivation got there, so long ago that even the weakened surviving ancient spren don't have the cognition left to recall them.

That is exactly how I reconcile it. I do think 4th spren and 4th moon fell before Honor and Cultivation even arrived. Wind and Stone do feel cognitively impaired to me and even if they weren't I'm not sure they'd have a reason to bring up ancient history. I've also considered that the new Bondsmith spren could know about Dawn since they contain parts of the ancient spren, but the Stormfather and the Sibling have lied and omitted truths repeatedly throughout the story so far. So, it wouldn't really be that odd to find out there's more that they hid.

8 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

The weirdest thing with the four tones for me has been what else happens in that scene with the chasmfiends. Venli uses Stoneshaping and allows the shape to be guided by the tones the chasmfiends sing. The resulting pattern is identical to the Shattered Plains, but inverted.
But, when we see the destruction of Stormseat and the creation of the Shattered Plains, the tone that's attributed as responsible is anti-Honor.  So there's a strange incongruity here that makes it a little hard to pin down what's going on with the four tones the chasmfiends sing.
It would make a lot of sense just from a pulled back perspective for them to belong to the Old Magic, but
The idea of a Dawn would be pretty cool.

I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor. It's possible that maybe Venli just has poor pattern recognition. Maybe what she's seeing is 4 patterns overlaid with one another and it mostly reminds her of the plains because Honor would be 1/4th of that image?

4 minutes ago, GG0z said:

I guess also, if your theory is correct, that with the release of Ba-Ado-Mishram, Dawn is healing

Yes! I think there's a lot of symbolism to Dawn returning to a Roshar that largely has no sunlight thanks to the Everstorm. I think she'll need extra help to recover, but Adolin (mister "born unto light") seems to have spent his whole life being prepared for this.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Where are you getting four pure tones from? I don't recall a number ever being given.

From the chasmfiends... And Venli.

Quote

Chasmfiends could sing.

Each of the beasts rose on an array of feet, turning a thick neck skyward and releasing a quartet of harmonizing notes, for they could call with multiple voices at once. Venli had been warned, but still she thought it remarkable, as she found something familiar in the notes. They vibrated within her, deep down to her gemheart. There were tones to the planet, separate from the rhythms her people heard. Perhaps these were the tones of the gods. But if that was the case, why four?

-WaT Chapter 60

I glossed over that passage on my first readthrough too. Venli chapters are not my favorite...

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Additionally I would note that all Pure Tones we know of are associated with a Shard, and Roshar notably adapted to each new arrival, the pure tones were not already there.

See the quote in my first post. It was Night's song that initially attracted Koravellium to Roshar. And on re-reading that chapter just now, Tanavast felt pulled to Wind's:

Quote

THESE QUESTIONS ECHOED IN THE STEWARDS THAT MY PREDECESSOR HAD LEFT. SHADOWS OF DIVINITY WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO PROTECT, TO SHROUD, TO NURTURE. ONE SANG TO ME IN PARTICULAR, AND THAT INVIGORATED ME, THOUGH I DID NOT KNOW WHY THE WIND WAS CHOSEN TO PROTECT. WIND, INVISIBLE WIND, SO FLIGHTY AND IMMATERIAL.

IT DID NOT... IT DID NOT CONDEMN ME. I SANG WITH IT.

-WaT Chapter 100

I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

I posted a theory about this over a year ago on the Cosmere forum. But it's really a Stormlight-specific theory, so I'm gonna try putting this updated version here because there's a chance Stormlight-only readers actually exist. I've had some time to think it over and gained a bit of new Rosharan info from things like the RPG sourcebooks. And think it deserves a bit of a refresh.

Let's talk about the primal spren: Wind, Stone, and Night. They predate the arrival of the Shards on Roshar. They were left by Adonalsium - the being with 4 aspects. Who wielded 4 Dawnshards. And built Roshar - with its 4 moons and 4 pure tones. I don't believe Wind, Stone, and Night are a trio. I believe they are a quartet with a missing member. I think there's some evidence to support this idea too.

Firstly: the 4 tones. Koravellium associates one of them with Night when she first arrives in the Rosharan system:

Quote

"IT... IS A BEAUTIFUL SONG," SHE SAID. "THE SONG THE NIGHT SINGS... I LOVE IT".

-Koravellium Avast, WaT Chapter 100

Note: the all-caps font makes it weird, but it is clearly capital "N" Night in the book.

If one of the tones is connected to Night, I think it's a reasonable conclusion to say that Wind and Stone are each also connected to a tone. And then, what? There's a fourth tone that has no spren? I think not. I think the 4th tone needs a 4th primal spren.

Secondly: push and pull. Brandon loves this theme and it is strong throughout the Cosmere. Wind and Stone seem paired in a relationship of this type. But where is the "push" to Night's "pull"?

I think this all points to a 4th primal spren who is an opposite to Night. One who I have been calling "Dawn" in my head. Why "Dawn"? Originally, I had been calling it "Day", but another user pointed out that what Roshar needs more than anything right now is a Dawn that brings an end to the Everstorm. And I really liked that. Plus, I realized later that the Dawnsingers and Dawn's Shadow could potentially be named after the spren they worshipped.

So, where is Dawn? I think they were hurt. Badly. Before the Shards even arrived on Roshar. I think that's why the 4th moon fell in Natanatan (which is where Dawn's Shadow is btw). And I think they are in some kind of deadeye-esque state. But I think they are recovering (more on that later).

That's already a pretty decent sized wall of text. I have other thoughts on Dawn like whether they would have a modern counterpart like Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling. Or how they might connect to Adolin or Ba-Ado-Mishram. And whether their existence would imply the possibility of a 4th Bondsmith. But let's start with the above because it's already a lot to unpack.