MischiefIsMe

I think so??? Maybe??? maybe we both got our wires crossed a little at some point lol

I see... so my first sentence in my response was in fact correct then lmao. What about Cultivation's Perpendicularity at the Horneater Peaks? Rock described them as "waters of life", would that not imply a more physical manifestation of concentrated liquid state Investiture? Also, didn't Kelsier tell Vin in Hero of Ages that the power at the Well came in three states: "solid in the nugget fed to Elend, liquid in the pool, and gas in the air you breath" (quoted from memory so I apologize for inaccuracy)?

I am aware that we've seen several universal forces/phenomena associated with Investiture and that there will be generalized terms, but if Heightening becomes one, it will likely only refer to number of BEUs if anything but I doubt that it will. As to which effects are related to holding huge amounts of Investiture, I bet anything that doesn't directly relate to Breath and Nalthian Awakening is what you're calling a Realmatic Effect just in an order that makes sense given the natural pathways of Investiture on Nalthis. So things like enhanced perception, agelessness, resistance to disease, life/investiture sense are all things that can and do happen via other pathways but just because they share a common result does not mean they have the same mechanisms or require equivalent amounts of power. This is a really interesting thought experiment but I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Not only is a hemalurgic spike metal, and thus very difficult to awaken anyways, but it's also already Invested which would make it even more so. And I'm not sure if you could awaken a spike and then use it for hemalurgy. Also, given that humankind on Scadrial was created directly from the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, I'd bet they have a lot of innate Investiture which may mean they have more BEUs per capita than even Nalthians.

I really like the depth of thought you've obviously put into your theory! But especially with the response from Alder24 above, I can't say I see Allomancy as the exception to the basic rule you posited: Source -> Filter -> Effect. If we accept your theory that Ruin is the Source for Hemalurgy and we know the type of metal is important in Hemalurgy then the metal itself rather than the body acts a filter which makes it that much more similar to Allomancy where the metals are used as filters to access a Shard's power. And I like the basic idea of the Magic Formula as a simplified explanation for how Shardic Investiture is intentionally used, but I don't see how it would exclude any such magic system. The metallic arts use metals as filters, Selish magics use the local landscape for form-based formulas as filters, fabrials use metals/gemstone/variety of spren as filters, Surgebinding on Roshar uses the Nahel bond to certain varieties of spren and oaths, Awakening uses Commands, Aviars use the species of bird, Sand Mastery uses a specific kind of microorganism, etc. The real beauty of your Magic Formula is that it applies to all intentional applications of Investiture (with room for context and nuance depending on the specific magic system, naturally). I really like this and part of why is because all non-solid/fluid forms of Investiture will have the same molecular configuration: none. They might have different chemical compositions but without the rigid structure of a solid to craft the filter of Intent/application, you just have a soup made of atoms of a Shard's pure Investiture (it's own new element on the periodic table as you pointed out) bouncing around whatever volume may be confining it. Without that filter, all it can be is fuel but given that it would still be a specific Shard's Investiture it would need to either be stripped of Identity or the user would have to have sufficient Connection to that Shard in order to use it to fuel their magic(s).

I think the core of this post is really interesting, but the phrasing being used is confusing. You keep using the word Heightening to describe general levels of Investiture but per the Coppermind "Heightening is a term used to refer to the different levels of power an Awakener may attain. By obtaining more Breaths, an Awakener can increase their level of Heightening, gaining more power and abilities." [source] That same page also says Heightenings are related to BioChroma and the Shard Endowment. As such, they are part of a specific magic system/manifestation of Investiture that is directly related to Endowment and her Shardworld, Nalthis. There are many common phenomena that occur when someone has a lot of Investiture, but those effects tend to be "filtered" (not the best word but it's the best one I can think of atm) by the magic system through which they have access to that Investiture. So, trying to apply Heightenings as a general measure of Investiture rather than an aspect of a singular magic system doesn't seem like it would work on principle. Heightenings relate specifically to BioChromatic Breaths and not any other form of Investiture I do really like the emphasis on comparing high levels of Investiture in different systems, though! It's super interesting seeing what other people think about the nature of the Cosmere especially on topics like this that I likely wouldn't have thought of on my own

This whole post was great to read, but I believe this particular line holds the key. I've mentioned in one of my big theories that I believe each Shard is coded to a certain allomantic metal (sort of like how you said the Shards might represent the 16 base dimensions of the Cosmere) and part of my theory is that being coded to the metals still gives some amount of wiggle room. This is also implied by the fact that there could be different Shards if a different group of people Shattered Adonalsium (my go to example is we could have Mania instead of Odium as the zinc-coded Shard). As such, I believe that each Shard is associated with a narrow band of frequencies as you've postulated but that depending on the circumstance--such as the group that Shattered Adonalsium and a given Shard's current vessel--one of the hyper-specific frequencies within that band becomes the dominant or "pure" tone associated with that Shard.

I thought the Grand Apparatus was something made by Adonalsium that consisted of multiple planets. Plus the Investiture from the Sunhearts pushing people to fight doesn’t seem very much like what Invention would inspire. I could see that particular piece of Investiture linked to Valor or even Odium post-Shattering though.

All we know about Whimsy’s Intent (to my knowledge) is what’s on Coppermind: “Very little is known about Whimsy's Intent, outside it not being congruous with intense planning and ambitions. It is also not calculating nor deliberate.” So I’m not sure I see how they’re the opposite of amassing power, but it is nice to be able to discuss different conclusions on this topic. The Investiture we’ve seen associated with Virtuosity (Heon, Hijo, and the Nightmares) all have to do with art but also about perception. Think of Wit’s epilogue on “how many people does it take for art to be beautiful” from Stormlight. I don’t personally see how Virtuosity is related to storing knowledge. Nor do I understand the thematic link between Mercy and wakefulness. Do we have any proof that Canticle’s Investiture is related to Invention? I actually see this one really well. Of all the alternative perspectives you’ve offered this one seems the clearest to me. Thank you for helping me see things I hadn’t previously considered. This is fun!

Interesting! Why Whimsy paired with Dominion and Virtuosity paired with Mercy? Also why put Invention as chromium and Ambition as electrum?

Hi there!! I'm also new to the 17th Shard lol. What's the scariest thing we've seen in the Cosmere in your opinion.

Holy... where did all these replies come from and why did I not get notifications for it?? Either way, I'll edit my introduction post with answers to your questions. It's nice to meet you all!!

I could definitely see Autonomy and Dominion being complementary on that angle. However, the Coppermind page for Dominion says the closest we know for certain about Dominion's Intent is that it likely has to do with "amassing and maintaining control over others" and the best guess I have as to Mercy's Intent is something akin to "forgiveness" which could be interpreted as giving up the control you have over someone, particularly someone who has wronged you. Aside from that, I'm confident that Honor is the duralumin-coded Shard and so if Autonomy wasn't the aluminum-coded Shard (aka the Shard most focused on Identity), then I don't know who would be. I don't think Mercy fits the bill there. And yeah Bavadin is... unique lmao Thank you so much!! I'm glad all the time I spent thinking about this wasn't totally wasted lmao. And I believe Dominion and Devotion were the example Sanderson used when saying that most Shards aren't opposites like Ruin and Preservation are. They went to the same planet but that doesn't mean they were complementary Shards. And I think Devotion and Odium make a more convincing pair as well as Dominion and Mercy.

This is such an interesting question but sadly I think there are limited ways to use feruchemical metalminds and hemallurgic spikes in fabrials. For the hemallurgic spikes, there power decays when outside of a body and while this can be heavily reduced by storing them in blood, it doesn't fully negate the hemallurgic decay. The bigger problem though is Identity. Hemallurgic spikes maintain some of the victim's identity which is then grafted onto the soul of another person/creature but that wouldn't work for a fabrial as it doesn't have a spiritweb. And a regular metalmind would have the same problem of "you need the power to belong to you". You could maybe use an unkeyed metalmind but the effects it might have would be very difficult to predict.

Preface: This is only my second post ever on a forum website and idk what I'm doing. But I've been working on this theory for a while and want to put it out there for discussion finally. I've seen a number of posts on 17th Shard and Reddit where people try to map the 16 Shards of Adonalsium onto the Allomantic table. In some cases, they simply saw that both of them were split up into 16 pieces and went from there. Others used precedent theories such as the Shardic Lens theory as a basis. Many of them used the push/pull and internal/external classifications of the metals to assign spots or attempt to use the Dawnshards. And while I think all of this is great, I have an alternative method for trying to map the Shards onto the Allomancy table that is based on 4 smaller theories I've had. The first smaller theory I have is related to the connection between the Shards and the metals and is a foundation I've not seen a theory mention before. I believe Preservation's nature to preserve the status quo has led it to shape everything associated with it in the likeness of the first thing it witnessed: The Shattering of Adonalsium. Preservation helped create Scadrial which is 1 Cosmere Standard Gravity and 1 Cosmere Standard Planetary Size just like Yolen, the first planet the Shard of Preservation ever saw. Likewise, the magic system associated with Preservation, Allomancy, is likely a direct reference to the first thing Preservation ever experienced: the creation the Shards. Using this idea as a basis for mapping the Shards onto the Allomancy table makes it feel more logical and intentionally connected than just noticing the pattern of 16. The second smaller theory I have is that the Shards do in fact form pairs. Sanderson has said that Ruin and Preservation were unique in their complete opposition, but I still believe the other Shards form pairs that can be adversarial and/or complementary. Think of it as light and shadow where one cannot exist without the other to contrast it or perhaps as two perspectives of a singular action where one acts and the other is acted upon. As such, I propose the following Shards are paired: Ruin and Preservation, Odium and Devotion, Whimsy and Wisdom/Prudence, Endowment and Ambition, Honor and Autonomy. The other six I paired as follows but am less confident in: Virtuosity and Valor, Dominion and Mercy, and Invention and Cultivation. (You can find explanations for most of these after the table below.) The third smaller theory I have is that the 16 allomantic metals (plus silver but that one's not important in this particular discussion) existed and interacted with Investiture before the Shattering of Adonalsium. The main reasons I think this are: 1) half of these metals are base elements on the periodic table and some of them (take iron for example) are required for human biochemistry and we know humans existed before the Shattering, and 2) planets without Shards have access to metals that interact with local Investiture (e.g. sunhearts on Canticle). Therefore, it is reasonable to believe the 16 metals not only existed prior to the Shattering but also interacted with Investiture likely in the same ways they do at present. The fourth and final smaller theory is actually in my first post here which establishes a fundamental nature of each of the 16 allomantic metals. It's a little lengthier than the above paragraphs so I wanted to keep it separate, but it's important to this theory as the fundamental natures of the metals are largely what I used to map the Shards onto the Allomancy table. Now here is where things get a little more involved. Using the foundation set by the four smaller theories above, I concluded that each Shard must be coded to one of the base allomantic metals (e.g. there is a Shard that is pewter-coded as their intent and associated magic reflect the nature of the pre-existing nature of the metal). This flips the approach from "Which metal is most like which Shard?" to "Which Shard's Intent is most highly aligned with the fundamental nature of which metal?" which actually made it much easier to assign several of the Shards to appropriate slots on the table. Having the Shards in pairs also helped build off of that foundation. Ultimately, I came to the following chart (less confident placements are white and I apparently forgot to make Bronze white as well). Mercy and Dominion as Steel and Iron respectively is mostly because that's all that was left. I put Dominion as Iron because its Intent was to amass power as if pulling it to himself. Not my strongest reasoning but oh well. Valor as Pewter was mostly due to their supposed Intent being something akin to "great courage in the face of battle" and pewter's connection to strength. Virtuosity as Tin is due to tin's fundamental nature of perception (listed in the post I linked above) and is consequently why Virtuosity and Valor are paired. That being said, I do like the idea of a contrast between acting and observing/capturing the memory. Odium and Devotion as Zinc and Brass is clear to me as they have been referred to as Hatred and Love respectively along with the fact that Voidlight (Odium's light) enflames emotions and Aon OmI (the Aon for love as well as Domi, another name for Devotion) soothes the hearts of those around it which both reflect the allomantic uses of these metals. Wisdom/Prudence (the Shard we don't actually know the name of) must be either Bronze (for it must be aware of things it wishes to avoid) or Copper (which hides it). Either way Whimsy is likely its complement as Prudence is about foresight/acting sensibly and Whimsy is about impulsivity. Best that we can tell at least. Honor is Duralumin as the Stormfather himself has said that Honor's power was that of Connection itself. And Duralumin's fundamental nature is that of Connection. Simple. Autonomy is Aluminum because their Intent is to remain separate/pure from outside influences (such as the Shards) which mirrors how aluminum is allomantically inert and has a fundamental nature of Identity. Endowment is Nicrosil because nicrosil's fundamental nature is about Investiture and to Invest in something is to give it something which aligns with her Intent of giving gifts. Ambition is Chromium partially because I see Ambition as taking something for oneself (earned or not) which is the other side of the equation from Endowment giving things to others. Chromium is also all about Fortune and destiny which seem like things Ambition would care greatly about. Invention and Cultivation are tricky. I believe they both have temporal metals but which one is Gold and which one is Electrum I am not sure. We don't have much on either of these metals and how they interact with Investiture as their Hemalurgic uses steal types of allomancy/feruchemy and they don't have any known uses in fabrials. Gold is all about spiritual alignment which is what allows for Gold Shadows for allomancy as well as feruchemical healing--we know healing in the Cosmere works by way of mapping the Spiritual aspect of a person (the perfect them) onto their physical form through the lens of the cognitive aspect (how they see themselves). Electrum is about progress as it allows a glimpse into one's own future and stores determination. The pairing of these to me is very "technology vs nature" but really their shared emphasis on change makes it difficult to place them as either Gold or Electrum. Lastly, the most obvious placement in my mind is Ruin and Preservation as Bendalloy and Cadmium respectively. They are completely opposed Shards and keep each other in infuriating balance in era 1. Similarly, Bendalloy and Cadmium bubbles also cancel each other out. Beyond that, Bendalloy creates a bubble of sped-up time inside which everything moves, changes, ages, decays, etc at a faster rate. Cadmium does the opposite, creating a bubble of slowed time within which everything is kept much closer to the state they were in when the bubble went up. And just to address how the Shards could have had different Intents if a different group of 16 people used the Dawnshards to shatter Adonalsium, I think they'd still be coded to this table. Perhaps instead of Odium as the Zinc-coded Shard or Devotion as the Brass-coded Shard we'd have something like Mania for zinc and Peace for brass. If anything, attempts at creating an alternative set of Shards (because that seems like a fun thought experiment) are now more possible with a solid foundation. I'd love to know your thoughts on this as I've been working on this theory for a long time and simply can't get any further without feedback or more information about the Shards we've not met in person yet. All constructive notes and discussion are welcome.

Hi everyone! My name is Mischief, MischiefIsMe. I'm completely new to the whole forum thing but have been reading Sanderson for years and am fully caught up on all of his Cosmere books. I love thinking about the lore of the broader Cosmere and how it all fits together. I hope you'll be patient with me for not knowing how forums work very well and enjoy my theories/discussion! Edit: Answers to all the questions I've been asked here since I last checked this thread. Radiant Lopen? Love him. Especially given how Sanderson approaches his character development differently from other characters. Favorite spren? I'd have to say... Cryptics. Part of me wanted to choose a non-Radiant spren variety like Logicspren but the Cryptics are just so fun to me (not to mention they're the spren of my order lmao) Where would I live in the Cosmere? That's a tricky one. I'm gonna go with.... Silverlight. Lots of knowledge and research without fearing for my existence because of nobility, war, spores, etc. Favorite character? That's so hard!!! I'll say..... either Shallan or Wit. There are so many other truly incredible characters like Vin, Elend, Dockson, Marasi, Steris, Wayne, Lift, Adolin, Renarin, Rlain, Lopen, Kriss, Shai, etc. But Shallan and Wit bring out the clever quips in me every time I re-read Stormlight. Least favorite character? Honestly.. probably Kelsier. I am opposed to his philosophies/practices and honestly he got under my skin as early as my first re-read of Mistborn Era 1. Great character. Did exactly what he was supposed to in that story. Still kinda wanna punch him in the face. Favorite scene? Another really tough one. I'll say... The Battle at Thaylen Field. I know that's technically more than one scene but my gods, what a fantastic part of the story. We got to see so many different orders of Radiants at work and in doing so truly begin to understand what the Knights Radiant are capable of. It was incredible. And bagels? I feel like I'm missing a joke/reference or something here... but I do like bagels.

Thank you so much for sharing that! As a complete forum newbie I really appreciate it.

An intro page?

Hi everyone! Just as a preface this is my first ever post on any forum so I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing. But I've been thinking on some theories for a while now and needed to put it up for discussion now that I feel they're as far as I can get them currently. So, I'm starting with a smaller one that leads into the big one that's been on my mind (which I'll post next). I think it's clear the metals have fundamental natures when it comes to how they interact with Investiture. We have instances of the metals acting in similar capacities on two different planets: Scadrial and Roshar. Analyzing the uses for the metals in the metallic arts as well as in fabrial science (the ones we know at least), some basic natures become clear. You can see the uses for each metal in the graphic below (uses in parentheses are my best guess for how they would work in fabrials) as well as what I believe to be the base nature of each metal in italics. I'll admit I'm not completely confident in some of these. Steel, Copper, and Gold in particular were difficult to try and reduce to a fundamental concept. Others, such as the spiritual/enhancement metals, were much easier to find the common thread for. My conclusions are also shaped by everything I've seen throughout the Cosmere and certain phrases, concepts, and patterns I've noticed. I hope you've enjoyed my first ever post! Hoping posting this will lead me to discussion that can help fine tune my theories. Would love to hear your thoughts!