Cuendillar

Pewter and Tin would be nice for everyday life, for obvious reasons. Depending on how you view them ethically, brass and zinc are also invaluable. You wouldn't have to pay for gas nearly as often due to steelpushing. Cadmium is helpful if you are bored and waiting for something. If you can make bendalloy, you could become extremely productive.

Oh, I forgot the heightening thresholds, I thought 1k was the Fifth. I would switch my vote to lerasium so I can have stuff like Pewter and Tin. I agree. Mistborn powers would be so much more convenient for general life. Plus, I already have a heron marked blade, so while the Shardblade would be cool (really cool), I don't need a second cool sword.

Meh, it's arguable. Whatever it's called, he did attempt to kill all the nobles, which is probably deserving of being on @therunner's list of Scadrian atrocities.

You don't technically have to spoiler tag it because Dawnshard came out more than 6 months ago and the IoTE subforum includes full cosmere spoilers.

@therunner, I mostly agree with you, with some caveats. This is really hard to define and unclear, maybe human trafficking would be a better description? I don't believe Kelsier's actions against the nobles were genocide per se. According to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the group targeted must be one of the following to be genocide. national ethnical racial religious They are part of the same state, so I don't think national is possible. I don't think the nobles have that much of a cultural difference to be considered a different ethnicity. There is an argument that Kel was trying to eliminate a racial group, and we do know that nobles and skaa previously had different biological traits, but by the time of TFE, they have intermixed and these differences are mostly gone. You could also argue he's targeting a religious group, but Kel never really goes after obligators or skaa who believe in TLR the same way. I think Kelsier is primarily targeting the nobles, who are class and political group. Neither of these are protected categories, making Kelsier's attack on the nobles not genocide. If you do consider Kelsier's classicide and politicide to be genocide, this doesn't actually matter. He does actually kill nobles with the intent to destroy the nobility. If the nobility are to be considered one of the protected groups, then it doesn't matter if he successfully wiped them out or not. It would still be genocide, but (as you see above) I don't think it is.

Oh, sorry. It's been a while since I read TFE.

Where do they spawn? Assuming they have no knowledge of our world and they end up in many countries, they're likely to get detained. If they try to escape, then they're likely to end up shot, or at the very least, unconscious until country's head of state decides what to do. Without info, they're likely to use their powers in public (probably enough in most countries). This risk would be mitigated if in an area without heavy control by a state, but that has other risks with crime/terrorism where the Feruchemist is the only one who can speak any language from our planet and none of them know anything about the political geography. Edit: Even if they manage to get control over an area, it would be hard for them to expand or even rule.

Kal is also likely to get mixed up with Jezrein, so he'll probably exhibit some of those traits. I suspect the effect might be minimized with Kelsier while they are both distinct Cognitive Shadows. Maybe if one permanently disappeared.

I highly suspect it is. Kelsier was killed by a spear, which is also very present in the Church of the Survivor.

That's not how I see it. Yes, the original Ashynites did break their deal with the Singers, and they never really got punished for it. But that doesn't mean that the humans who live on Roshar now, them and and their ancestors, who have always lived there should be considered criminals, or even "children of Ashyn." According to the Roshar map/timeline, the Ashyn exodus was about 7000 years before the events of TWOK. That means if the first civilizations in Mesopotamia still lived to today from their estimated creation, then they would have existed for less than humanity has been on Roshar. I don't think it's fair to consider a human who was born and has lived on Roshar their entire life any less Rosharan than a singer.

We learn in TLM that the Rosharan branch (which has a significant amount of Rosharans in it) is mostly outside of Kelsier's control. A lot of the "damage" committed by the Ghostbloods has in fact been from Rosharans. Tbf, this is someone entirely unaffiliated with Scadrial directly in league with Odium. It'd be a bit like judging Rosharans based on Moash or Sadeas.

I think the reason this is such a fiery argument is that this is an argument in our world, about animal rights and ethics about industrial farming.

I agree Scadrial doesn't (currently) have to worry about an invasion, but I would disagree here. Unkeyed dor is a transportable natural resource that most Selfish don't have access to, and indeed, only the Ghostbloods and the Set have it. Chouta is an aspect of culture. It's not described as a favorite food a Ghostblood agent picked up from another planet, but as street food. This sort of thing doesn't usually happen without some migration. There are also the weird potential sky breakers who help with the boats, the Ire moving, and the camps of Unkalaki as examples of some Rosharan emigration.

When did you get back? I don't actually think this is new. In O, Jasnah wonders if Shallan is using Transformation to give her illusions mass. It might just be a light weaver resonance. (Sorry, can't find the quote rn)

Eu5 just came out and was visible on top seller lists on steam. I don't think RTS is "dead" quite yet.

Sorry, but I just don't see what you think would be that of a challenge to overcome. Ash is a significant issue, but it's not like they're trying to grow food to survive, they can receive all the shipments they want. The temperature during TFE is within the normal range and disease is less of an issue because the innate investiture of people in the cosmere limits disease (can't find the WoB for this, sorry). There's no challenging geography (most of TFE appears to be plains from the maps we have), and we haven't seen any evidence of guerilla tactics on Scadrial.

Did anyone else read that as "rithmatic theory" first? I thought we had gotten something exciting about a rithmatist sequel.

I mean, world hoppers were fine on Scadrial. I don't really see any challenge of Scadrian conditions that wouldn't be easily conquered by the greatest logistics machine of all time.

But accessing the magic is how they are distributed. Breaths being accessed plutocraticly change what members of society have access. I would disagree. It can be bought or sold, but it isn't (yet). Perhaps it could be, especially if information was tightly controlled and spikes were sold. But it isn't now; that was my main reasoning in classifying it as meritocratic.

Sure! I see hemalurgy as mainly meritocratic because it requires knowledge. It doesn't really require resources (other than metal), connection, ancestry, or anything else. If you know how to use it, you can. The "merit" is knowledge of the art. If you look, I mention the shaod as an aristocratic system, your quote is from @Duxredux, not me. I remembered a WoB I saw once, the shaod is (most likely) not random. It's based on connection.

I mention it as a consolidated - aristocratic system. I agree, this does make it interesting and more nuanced than meritocratic=better. Something like Hemalurgy is purely meritocratic, it only requires knowledge, but it absolutely harms society in general.

Yeah I agree, I think the singer forms could fall under widespread - meritocratic in the way they are spread out. I think socialism as a term is misleading, as it implies political and economic systems that don't really exist in the Cosmere (yet). Magical socialism would probably be something closer to if the Hallandren God Kings seized control of the market and managed the breath trade - a plutocratic system turned either meritocratic (in its best form) or aristocratic (in its worst form).

I think the best system is one where I control all the magic. I believe I have a better classification for this with two scales - prevalence and method of obtaining. Prevalence runs from consolidated to widespread and method runs from aristocratic to meritocratic. - Consolidated Only a few individuals control this power, basically only the very top of the upper class. If not part of the upper class, still extremely rare. - Concentrated Still rare, usually (but not always) the hallmarks and criterion for the upper class. Something most people won't be able to dream of. - Widespread Many people don't have the power in this situation. But either a majority or plurality of society do. You wouldn't be surprised to see someone with it walking down the street. And now, the method of obtainment scale: - Aristocratic Either born with it, or granted through a method irrelated to talent or wealth. - Plutocratic Primarily obtained through money, connections, strings, or other channels that aren't meritocratic. - Meritocratic Obtained through merit or worth, whether moral integrity, intelligence, charisma, talent, or some other way Examples of each category: Consolidated - Aristocratic Feruchemy, Divine Breath, Dead Shards, kandra, Elantrian-ness, etc. Consolidated - Plutocratic Higher heightenings Consolidated - Meritocratic Hemalurgy, Radiant Oaths Concentrated - Aristocratic Allomancy Concentrated - Plutocratic Lower heightenings and awakening, Soulcasters (and fabrials in general) Concentrated - Meritocratic Soul stamping Widespread - Aristocratic Heaving a breath in general Widespread - Plutocratic Medallions, first heightening Widespread - Meritocratic As far as I know, this doesn't really exist in the cosmere (yet).

This is where our viewpoints differ. I'm sorry that I was lecturing and telling you how to feel, that was not my intention, but I don't hold the same view of what "winning" an argument is. I believe that the only way to "win" an argument is to walk away from it more knowledgeable and thoughtful, regardless of what your initial viewpoint was. 1) This is not sarcasm. I'm sorry if it seemed like it. My viewpoints about the themes of Stormlight is mostly unchanged, but you made me rethink it and justify it, which I appreciate. 2) Please don't be sorry on my behalf. I enjoyed this conversation and I enjoy, in general, stretching my brain and thinking through things. I sincerely apologize if this seems to mock you or gloat. I have no intention of doing so, instead I am genuinely thanking you for starting this discussion and going through your viewpoint. Perhaps you have a point there. I do tend to get an ego as the "smart" and "enlightened" person in arguments. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. (Yes, this is sincere) I was trying to see another point of view, but there are many moments where I was trying to correct you instead of thoughtfully discuss, especially near the beginning of this thread. I agree with @Immortal Platypus in that I'll have to add the book you mentioned to my reading list. It sounds pretty interesting. I'm probably not going to continue responding to this thread, as I feel the conversation has wound down and is no longer productive, instead we're picking up the pieces of our feelings and debating the victor of said argument.