listerfeend

I would also be VERY willing to bet that each of the 3 Bondsmith, if they get plate (which I assume they do), they could very well each have different plate spren. It seems the Spren you are Bonded with as a Bondsmith very much change certain aspects of the Bond. Navani being stuck in the Tower, for instance.

Ok, I'm a little late with responses for this, but I have thoughts. So, my recollection of how exactly the Torment affected NoSiLion is a little hazy, but I seem to recall that he would lock up not when he hurt someone but exactly at the moment he knew he was going to hurt someone. He was able to maneuver his own body into positions that would block/trip or otherwise "harm" someone and it was at the moment he knew it would that he'd lock up. So it seems to me, as in all things, Intent (knowledge and intention) to do a thing that "may" cause "harm" to someone is the limiter for the Torment, at least in Sig's case. And since we have no information on how it works with Hoid other than "what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid," this is the best indicator of what we can expect with Hoid's own affliction from the Dawnshard. My thoughts on this are that any Awakening Command given by Hoid would have in its Intent his own restrictions against causing physical harm. If the Awakening were done by Hoid in this purely hypothetical situation, and everything else about it was exactly the same: Same Command, same "complex visualization", same breaths, same ambiguous "help" from Endowment; I think one of two things would happen. It wouldn't work at all OR It would work, but Nightblood as we know it would be completely different, molded by the inherent Intent to cause no harm. I like the latter option more, because it's more interesting. "Destroy" does typically imply causing harm, however, I don't think that Hoid would be restricted from, say, slicing a rock into smaller pieces. That is also "destroying" something. So there is a way to interpret "Destroy Evil" that doesn't involve actively causing physical harm to living things. I'm not creative enough to come up with examples at the moment, but I suspect, if it went this way, everything would be different. Same thing, either Hoid would be unable to awaken a Lifeless with the same one breath Command/Intent as everyone else, he'd have to use a more complex Command/Intent that would safeguard it against causing harm to living things, OR Hoid could use the same one breath Command/Intent, but bundled into that, his own perception of the Intent would prevent it from causing harm. So even if he were to give someone else the command code to give that lifeless orders, the Lifeless would have written into its own sDNA Hoid's own restrictions. I'm sure he can draw them, but only if he is reasonably convinced (to his own standards) that no one will by directly harmed by his drawing of those Aons. I'm not sure where the line stops with these restrictions, however. Does secondary harm count? Like, if Hoid were to draw an Aon that blew up a piece of a wall, sending debris flying. There is a chance that debris could land on someone and hurt them that way. Hoid would know that, he's been around long enough and understands enough of physics and Investiture and everything else, that he'd have to know that is a possibility. So...would he be able to blow up the wall? Or would he have to blow up the wall in such a way that he was certain there would be no collateral damage?

I'm noticing that that quote definitely leaves out whether or not Hoid knows some other magical or mechanical means of powering Awakening... I basically default to Hoid can do pretty much anything that has been said to be possible, whether or not we have the exact mechanics, unless specifically stated otherwise lol. He may not know how to turn Stormlight into Breaths, but I feel 95% certain he probably knows how to turn some other form of Investiture into it, or has some other magical or mechanical means of doing so. Or we'll just find out he has a dragon's wealth of Breath stored in something completely random that we don't know about. That would be a very interesting Command. Something that would trigger from essentially mental or emotional distress and still react as though it were a physical threat? He didn't say anything, nothing attacked him or anything like that, so we are still saying that the Awakened objects are reading his mind/emotional state, which feels like it's the same thing as a Mental Command. Based on the fact that he seemed to be subconsciously using Allomancy as well, based on the fact that he was pulling on all the metal around him without really seeming to have an actual goal in mind...I'm still pretty convinced this was a reflexive Mental Command Awakening. I'm not positive on that, but that's how it feels to me.

Theoretically, it's possible to fuel almost every magic system with any other Investiture. Brandon has said as much, but is very coy about the mechanics that would need to be involved. However, if there is anyone in the Cosmere who would know how to do it, it's Hoid. Khriss has more knowledge of Investiture and its uses than even Hoid, but I suspect that Hoid definitely would know.

One possibility: Hoid only had a couple hundred Breaths on him at that time, but has a much bigger stash that he went back to? Another is this tidbit from the copper mind Could very well be the case that Perfect Pitch is not one of the "various Heightenings" that can be replicated by merely being highly Invested, but Mental Commands are? That would explain neatly why he lost Perfect Pitch, but was able to Awaken without words. As for why he would Awaken the doll with a spoken Command when he could do it Mentally... Hoid is a showman for sure. It could be as simple as him putting on a show for the little girl, and the whispering Commands was for her benefit, and nothing more...

There was a line in MB1 where Kelsier talks about Mistborn needing to purge their metals before they sleep, because they can get sick, so if WoB says otherwise, that is really frustrating. I do get a little tired of canon being established in hard to find WoB's. Even if that isn't a problem, there is still the fact that they would pass through his digestive system. Your point earlier about piercings could account for it, but it doesn't really seem like the Alethi are very piercing prone, so I sort of feel like Jasnah would have mentioned something about piercings, if that were the case. That might be spoon feeding us too much for a Brando Sando book, and we may find out that he does in one of those WoB's I just mentioned at a later date, but I do really like the idea of him using Towerlight, or some other Investiture source, to power it.

I think that line of thinking was more about being able to give gems of towerlight to Radiants before they leave, rather than relying on Stormlight alone. That makes sense to me as Dalinar is probably too busy to be refilling spheres all the time, and is only one man. He cant be at every battle to refuel. If Navani found a way to make Towerlight last as long as Stormlight in gems, they would be able to refuel Radiants a lot easier. It could also just be Navani doing experiments to see the limitations and powers of Towerlight...

My thought on that was: Odium is bound to Braize (somehow) Tanavast died on Roshar (somehow) The Shard Honor was Splintered on Roshar (somehow) If Odium was on Braize (there was no true Desolation happening) how was he able to Splinter the Shard if he wasn't there. I've been told that the restrictions were specifically that he could take no action against people on Roshar, unless they were fully given to Odium and that's the reason why (that's explained in the Interludes). However, that doesn't seem entirely clear that that is the full extent of the binding that is going on. Seems to me there are rules about what Odium is allowed to do during a Desolation, and between them, and they aren't exactly the same. If he was able to act off planet in between Desolations, seems like the Everstorm and everything like that should have happened way way way earlier than it currently is. When Leras died, Preservation was dropped right away, intact, for Kelsier to pick up, and then pass along to Vin, who passed it along to Sazed when she died. But Honor just...fell splintered? Odium was able to nab it and Splinter it? Does Splintering happen in the SR?

So, interesting thing @CtrlAltDepressed and I were just speaking about. Hoid wakes up, and has Allomantic Metals ready to go? I know poisoning from the metals wouldn't even register as a passing thought to Hoid, but he still digests...so is he constantly re-upping his supply of metals every day? Does he "selectively" digest stuff, and therefore doesn't digest the metals? OR the most interesting thought, was he able to power ALL of that with Towerlight? If anyone we've seen on screen can do something like that, it would be him, and that would be absolutely astounding.

I think it's physical proximity to the tower that is going to be the limitation here. She said The only reason it works like that in the Tower is because she's basically acting like Dal's perp for the immediate vicinity. What I'm getting at is: I don't think Towerlight is in anyway more "OP" than Stormlight, it's just that it's constantly suffusing the tower and the Radiants within, giving them unlimited access to Investiture, and, by proxy, giving things like their illusions and lashings unlimited Investiture to function. They aren't "super powerful" they are just "constantly powerful". I imagine higher oaths from Navani will both extend her distance and longevity away from the tower, but she'll still have to return with decreasing frequency as her Oath Level™ increases. Potentially at 5th Ideal she'd be able to go an indefinite distance for an indefinite amount of time? I suspect this is exactly what we saw in TSM when Hoid showed up all Force Ghost like on Canticle. I'm being told by @CtrlAltDepressed that it is a different thing, but I really see no reason to suspect that it is. And, even if it is different somehow, we have seen him "Astral Project" across the Cosmere once before, it's not super surprising that he could now. It may be a misinterpretation of Jasnah's but, I really doubt it, just based on who Jasnah is. She may be "ignorant" of the Cosmere at large at this time, but she's not prone to misinterpreting that bad.

Also, interesting that the epigraphs are back to the Way of Kings

I think we've had a WoB that Hoid can do that in a similar way to the Returned, but I can't find it and I don't recall precisely what was said. So, massive enemy troop movements on multiple fronts, T is already changing the game drastically. Poor Hoid doesn't even realize what exactly he's missing. It should be a clue to him that things are very different from what he'd expect from Rayze though. I wonder how long till Dal and Pals figure that twist out. I'm betting that Navani and the Sibling are going to come up with fabrial tech 3.0, some kind of mix between the trapping non-consenting spren and the inefficient use of consenting ones. I'll bet that is going to be even more powerful/efficient than either of the two before. Navani not needing to sleep, and being restricted to the tower are both very interesting. I wonder if there are things that Dalinar can do beyond the Bondsmithing that comes with bonding SF that we haven't seen yet.

That's true enough, but I feel like the implication is that Honor was wounded/damaged somehow, and that lead to the decline. Otherwise he wouldn't have been Splintered, he just would have dropped the shard like what happened to Leras, right? Or am I crazy?

Interesting hypothesis. Maybe it's naive of me, but I constantly get stuck on the fact that we are told that Tanavast and Koravellium were "lovers", so it feels really strange to me any theory that pits Cultivation against Honor. You aren't necessarily saying that outright, but the implication would be that her actions were intended to end up with Tanavast dead. Although, it's certainly possible that after Tanavast's death, that became her goal.

I would definitely say that we've seen something of this already. Unless Substantiation is something different from what we saw Shallan do at the Battle of Thaylen Field, where here illusions were definitely making physical contact with enemies. Very interesting take, and something I might could get behind, honestly. So far, this is the only theory about why substantiation would have been forbidden that makes sense, though I still feel like double bonding would have to have serious ramifications that haven't been explored yet. Shallan's mental state could definitely be part of the reason double bonds would be forbidden. I still think her alters are actually Fortune shenanigan connections to "real" versions of Shallan that would have gone through different life experiences. If that is true, and it's related to the double bond, that feels like there could be dire consequences down the line, though I can't really specify what those would be. Maybe there is a great risk of losing your grip on reality and just going haywire, or something along those lines... I'll have to think about this more

Eventually, the Desolations end, because the Fused have no hope of actually doing anything? The exact same thing that is happening now, except in reverse? There are a lot of different ways that could go, and Cultivation (at least, since Honor was stark raving mad at the time, and then dead later) doesn't seem to care all that much about an entire race of people being reduced to Identity-less slaves. There doesn't seem to be much concern or "what about the singers" going on here. That's a mighty fine philosophy to hold when you aren't the one being murdered in droves. They also have several orders of philosophy that basically refute that. Like if a Windrunner had that ability, and didn't use it, I feel pretty confident in saying that that would probably, at some point, break their oaths to protect. My analogy about nukes wasn't a direct comparison. Yes, they are restricted from Microkinesis, because that is nuke like. This is not that, not even remotely close, unless there is some other Roshar Shattering consequence of...making solid light shows? That's my entire point in this: for this to be forbidden, the consequences should be pretty far reaching and immediate. Not some "slippery slope" argumentation about how warfare would change. If Honor was, in fact, the one that forbade it. Now, the fact that Abidi says that substantiation was forbidden, rather than something more concrete like "impossible" (which would be the case with Microkinesis, something that Honor very explicitly made impossible) indicates to me that this was a "forbidden curse" kind of situation, not a restriction on Surgebinding made by any of the Shards. More a "this is probably a bad thing to do, so we are going to agree not to do it" kind of thing. And even then, I'm expecting there to be serious consequences to something that the Ancient Radiants forbade, though it was within their power and makes WAY too much sense to do. What could those be? That is my question. Why would anyone restrict themselves in such a way? It doesn't make any Storming sense.

Is he still affected? Or is he now just able to choose which to lean into? Cuz he did that a lot, choosing to feel, and then choosing to let logic take the wheel. Which is sort of the opposite of the boon/curse that he had before. I wonder if that was the purpose of the boon/curse, basically training T to be able to handle all of the emotions that Odium is going to have to interface with. It was very interesting to see that entire conversation play out between them though

A single breath also doesn't make a body, a spiritweb, an Identity, etc... So, these are the things that I'm thinking about when you say "come fully alive" as all of those are necessary to be considered "alive" in the Cosmere. We know that Lifeless are more "alive" than we might think, from WoB, but I don't think they'd be considered "fully alive" in the sense that you seem to be indicating. It's not obvious to me that there would have to be any kind of "unhealthy state of mind" intrinsic in creating an Illusion like this though. At the end of the day, this is Lightweaving and Soulcasting (probably) mixed together in a way to create a solid Illusion. I'm trying to separate out what we know about Shallan from what we know about the magic itself. There doesn't seem to be a reason for substantiation to require a complete dedication to the lie, so to speak. Storms, substantiation, from the context, just means giving solid form to an Illusion, at least that was my take. It doesn't even need to be an Illusion of a person. A Lightweaver, using substantiation, should be able to make a wall out of thin air, or a sword, or literally anything they can imagine. Shallan has to dedicate herself to the lie, especially to create a Radiant substantiation, but that doesn't seem like it would be a requirement for someone with enough understanding of their Surgebinding to simply create the Illusion. That's what I'm struggling with. This seems SUPER DUPER powerful, so it would have to have some serious consequences for it to be "forbidden". And I'd like to know what those consequences are. Like Mikrokenisis being forbidden makes perfect sense to me. Don't cause nuclear explosions at will. Roger that. This doesn't seem "potentially world ending" in the same way to me.

That would take a STUPID amount of Investiture, wouldn't it? Not just to give it an actual Identity and everything like that, but also just the amount of Investiture required to keep the Illusion around? Like, when Shallan makes "copies" of herself, she has to tie it to a gem so that it will use the Stormlight to keep the illusion going, and I seem to recall there was a couple hours? or some smaller time frame like that, for those illusions. True, very true, though, forbidding a skill because it's easy to do something like that, especially in the Order about spying...that seems a little short sighted Maybe... It seems to me, all of this would be harder for Shallan than it would be a different Lightweaver, since she is already struggling with what is real and who she is. Obviously not every Lightweaver is going to have the same tenuous grip on reality as Shallan, and wouldn't view Illusions of themselves as...actually themselves? I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems obvious to me that Shallan would be the one who would struggle with a fractured psyche due to this, but it's not very obvious to me that anyone else, like Vatha, or especially the Radiants of old, would have that same confusion about what is real and what is not.... That also seems like a SUPER obvious fix to the entire issue of Desolations though? 5 Lightweavers with an army of illusions each, no humans have to die, doesn't matter that the Fused can respawn, since very few humans would actually be doing the fighting? I can see that a rogue Lightweaver using that technique would be very hard to deal with, that does make sense, but the potential benefits in war, especially if we can take this all the way like you're saying, it just doesn't make sense that it would be forbidden. Highly regulated, maybe... But this is like nukes IRL. Super duper dangerous if the wrong people get them, sure. We still have a whack ton of them though...

Abidi says I'm curious why this ability would have been forbidden. I can see very obvious and numerous tactical applications for such a skill, so to forbid it would have to mean that there are some very bad consequences of it, but... I'm not sure what those could be.

It's not clear to me that they'd be able to do any kind of Awakening Commands with giving them breath in the first place. From what we know of Breaths, they could transfer with the "My breath to yours" Command, but that should be about all they are able to do in that situation. Awakening doesn't seem to work, from my understanding, on living things, so I don't know that they could do something like "My breath to yours, for protection" or something like that to copy Warform in the first place. Along with what @CtrlAltDepressed said about not taking the breath into their Gemheart seems like this wouldn't really work out... The other things, Hemalurgy, Allomancy, etc.. All of these are basically Investiture interacting with the Spiritweb, splicing new things on, increasing things that are already there, etc... Seems to me that Singer Forms are essentially their own Invested Art, and would work around holding a Splinter in their Gemheart... An interesting idea I just had though: A Singer SHOULD be able to hold a Seon in their Gemheart, which, theoretically, should give them a new form they've never had before... They MIGHT be able to do something if they were to be given a Divine Breath as well, but I think that would likely have to come directly from Edowment, just like it does a Returned. Divine Breaths are splinters of Endowment, just like Spren are Splinters... so... that could lead to something interesting in the Form Department...

That is the most likely answer, frankly. The voice she heard in her head was very interesting, hard to say who or what that might be, but the beads? Almost certainly something to do with Fortune. Weird part is still about the bead "wanting" to help. I really only remember one situation in where a bead actually talks, and that was the Stick.... Maybe Stick is trying to help now, because it feels bad it wouldn't help that one time!

That's true, but we know that all the other spren when manifesting in both, part of them manifest in the PR, and the rest of them manifest as their "true" body in the CR. It's kind of confusing. I don't think there are any circumstances under which a spren would be a bead in the CR, though I'm open to being wrong on this.

All spren in the CR form as their full body though... Creation spren, presumably, are much different in the CR than they appear in the PR, and wouldn't take the form of beads I don't think. Nor would they be invisible. Seems to me that, if Shallan had her armor, we'd see all those Spren following her around in the CR wouldn't we? I too am very interested to know who or what spoke into Shallan's mind like that.

I imagine it's the lack of sentience of the Armor Spren. I think that Radiant Spren are able to do that because they can actually interpret the Intent from their bonded Knight. Whereas, I suspect, the Armor Spren aren't really able to interpret that. Now, a counter point to that would be: well why can they take the shape of the armor? And...I don't have a great answer for that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they have to have had that imprinted on them somehow. The ability to shrink or grow really seems to still be a maintaining of that original imprint of the armor. They have a seemingly set "this is what armor looks like" ideal, and they are able to make small changes to the size of the pieces to make it fit whomever it is intended to fit. I'm not sure if all of the Orders can send their armor to protect others, I seem to recall that being discussed as a Windrunner only thing as it fits within their "Protect" ideal structure. That all being said, I don't think we have any real in world explanation or evidence that this is or is not impossible and could definitely open up some very interesting interactions on the battle field. Shooting an entire set of Shardplate at someone at high rates of speed would be terrifying...