Dros

C'mon. He was obviously saying the Cosmeric (?) equivalent of "forgettaboutit".

See: Nonsense. Balderdash. forgettaboutit!

Hoid's a Yoleni goodfella out to get some thumbs from some deadbeat gamblers (Rayse/Bavadin) who, at the moment, pose quite a quandary because they have no thumbs. 

Or not.

I would lean toward the "death" of spren as an unintended consequence of the Recreance. In view of these new revelations, this quote from one of the Epigraphs, which most thought (as well as I) was a KR speaking about the splintering on Honor, might actually be speaking of the loss of the Nahel Bond also. 

 

 

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

It's my understanding that Honor is thought to still be alive during the Recreance, so this particular KR seems surprised by the absence of his bond, as if he expected it to remain. Could be he isn't understanding what's happening and calling to his Creator for an answer.

All (known) things considered, it seems to me that a group of Heralds might have come together to cut off the Nahel Bond wherever they have found it.

Jasnah mentions that the spren built cities. I would assume she meant in shadesmar, but just somethin to think about when considering who built urithiru and what that may have to do with where it is. Not sure I like the idea of it being in shadesmar.

It seems there is a corresponding structure in the physical realm for everything in the Cognitive, though. Could you build a city as we envision it in the Cognitive Realm and not see that construction manifest in the Physical?

Truly, and mostly why a phrased it as a question. I imagine we'll see this explained at a later date.

I wasn't really referring to the KR, although that's who he was referencing. I meant that Honorspren might be more discerning even way before the KR because when they bond to someone, it means death for the Honorspren if the bond is broken. Thus, the Honorspren are much more discerning in who they bond with, whether it was pre-KR surgebinders or the KR themselves. Although I imagine the bond is created before someone becomes a KR, not after.

 

 

1) spren died at the recreance (probably due to the severing of the bonds?)

Could be why Honorspren are more discerning than other spren?

I'm starting to think this is Taln speaking.

When Kalak spoke of "that place of pain and fire" and "The flesh burning. The fires. The pain over and over and over..." initially I took this to mean that the Heralds finally broke because they could no longer endure repeated torture at the hands of Odium. That reeks too much of Odium being sadism incarnate. Sadism alone doesn't seem to mesh well with the nuances of the meaning of odium. Rather than Kalak dreading becoming once again the recipient of endless pain, I think instead he dreaded once more becoming a person who must mete out endless pain.

What is the most loathsome thing one can do to someone sworn to protect others? Twist the oath so that, in order to uphold it, one must commit terrible atrocities against a small number in order to protect the greater number.

 

 

 

I really like that thought, But I always thought this was from Travangian's perspective. Mainly, because he's literally bleeding people out to hear the death quotes and believes the evil he does is in the best interest of humanity. 

I always figured that it meant that after Odium finished destroying Roshar, he would go after the rest of the Cosmere as well (or at least the inhabited parts.) Odium means "that which invokes strong hatred" and in my opinion nothing would evoke hatred better than destroying all life. While he could do this without destroying the planets, after he kills off all the other Shards there's no reason not to have some planet-busting fun.

But then there's no one left to hate anyone. A tortured man hates a lot more than a dead man...or presumably so.

I honestly don't think the Heralds would have the time to set up an organization like the Radiants either. I would think they would have only served as inspirations. Even Kalak's interaction with Jezrien seemed to show a distance between the Heralds and mankind.

edited to hide spoiler. Thanks for heads up, hoser.

I think you're speaking in terms of consequences, Weiry. In your argument, the consequences of an opposed Ruin is not a terrible thing, but the consequences of an unopposed Ruin are bad. By that very argument you are ceding that Ruin's Intent is a terrible thing if left to its own whims.

By "nerfing," my thought of what he meant is a lot of folks seem to think Ati's consciousness was aware that some destruction is good to bring about change and growth and that he controlled the Intent of Ruin to that end. I think that's false. I think the Intent totally takes over the person and the Shard does not care about the grand scheme of things, i.e. Ruin's Intent is to ruin, so without a conscious, the Shard would ruin wherever it was and whatever was near. With a conscious director, no matter if Ati was a good man or bad man, the Shard wants to ruin still. Ati just comes up with a coherent strategy to do so. His will to do good, or to help the Cosmere evolve was lost. His will was only about carrying out the Intent of the Shard.

I believe Shardic Intent would have the greater impact on a holder than vice versa. For example, Hoid states Ati was a good man until he picked up Ruin. However, I would agree that Hoid believes Odium is more dangerous with Rayse as the holder.

Does the Cognitive Realm function the same as the Physical Realm in terms of Time? It didn't seem to effect Shallan, but she was only there for a short time. Could account for the seemingly instantaneous transport to a destination.

Don't get me wrong, I like the line of thought, but I'm just not sure what Kelsier's status is, much less whether he would have the physical capacity to put together such an organization.

It's my understanding that Honor was splintered before the Recreance. 

I don't think it's pretentious at all. Imagine the following scenario:

 

Various people, over time, become fairly Realmatically aware. Eventually, they find each other and group up. Then they realize how puny and insignificant they are. The fact of the matter, as they quickly discover, is that there are sixteen people who decide the fate of the cosmere, and that everyone else is irrelevant. They decide that they do not like this situation. They come up with a plan: while they realize that they could never directly hope to contend with the power of a Shard, they think that, perhaps, if they all band together, they might nevertheless be able to work towards making a difference in the universe. With this in mind, they resolve enter this cosmic game as a new (albeit weaker) player - a seventeenth Shard, as it were, peer to the sixteen if not in power, then at least in influence.

 

Keep in mind that they don't call themselves followers of the Seventeenth Shard; they call themselves members, meaning that the term describes the entire organization - that they, as a collective, are the Seventeenth Shard. Would it have made sense if Zane had called himself a member of Ruin? Regardless of whether my interpretation is accurate, I find it highly unlikely that the term Seventeenth Shard refers to only the organization's leader, Kelsier or otherwise.

But the Letter indicates the Seventeenth Shard is an organization that practices non-intervention.

I really like how he handles the corrosion of knowledge over time. That's something you don't see in many fantasy novels. In a lot of series everyone has the same knowledge of history; their opinions on the actions of historical figures might be different, but they all seem to work from a set of accepted facts.  

Point taken, I guess it's all how you look at it. 

My instincts tell me that the Oathpact was more of a way to allow the three Shards to coexist in some way on Roshar as Brandon has said Shardic power interferes with each other. I could be quite wrong about that and have never successfully found a way to support that view. (You would think that would make me stop believing it, but, oh well, I'm stubborn.)  But that's where I'm coming from on this.

I've never been able to get over what a terrible agreement the Oathpact always seemed to be on Honor's part. Really, why would you make an agreement where your champions get tortured for eons? (Although it's probable that wasn't originally how it started for the Heralds while in limbo between Desolations.) 

So I'm thinking the Oathpact, while more than likely involving many other things, also was an exchange program or ward system. The other side of the Oathpact was Odium had to give over the Voidbringers/Parshendi to Honor in between Desolations. Odium gets the Heralds as "wards" and Honor gets the Voidbringers. The Parshendi change forms voluntarily and Eshonai (sp?) cannot figure out why some Parshendi would do that. Well, maybe they're fulfilling their end of the Oathpact.

I thought WoB stated: Ruin and Preservation settled because they were opposites, but that's not necessarily true as to why all the Shards settled where they did. So, there's probably some reason why opposite Shards attract, but they don't HAVE to be opposites. It sounds situational to me. There are reasons behind the groupings, opposites attracting being only one of them.

CHAOS

In the most recent Hero of Ages annotation, you said that Preservation chose Vin to be the recipient of the power, just as Preservation had chosen Alendi previously (thus, this was why Ruin had manipulated the Prophecies). Was Alendi also chosen precisely sixteen years before the Well of Ascension's power returned?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. He was chosen exactly sixteen years before, but he was a bit older then Vin when he was chosen.

 

I just saw this, so yes, I think you are completely right, Shardlet. That guy Dros doesn't know what he's talking about! 16 seems to be a special number for the Shards.  So why is ten the special number of Roshar I wonder?

Speaking of that, I wonder if they had any idea what the Shards intent was before they picked it up. Did Tanavast or Rayse know that they were picking up Honor and Odium, or did they just pick them up randomly and become bound to the Shard whether they liked it or not. It seems Ruin may not have been thrilled with his selection, at least not in the beginning. I get the feeling they kinda got stuck with whatever they picked up.

 

Or were they chosen by the Shards at that time? Do unclaimed Shards have the capacity to do that?

Maybe someone should add this to the list of questions for Brandon? Can a shard be shattered as opposed to splintered?

 

I thought this might have been addressed by Brandon at one time, but I can't find any quotes that address the splinter v shatter verbiage specifically.

Look forward to reading it. Looks like you have some Shardic Mutually Assured Destruction theory going on there

Alaxel, I was about to disagree with you, but I think you might be onto something. You're implying a symbiotic relationship between a Shard and the people and organisms that live there. That gives a strong reason beyond just their Intents for Shards to develop civilizations. The more in line with their Intent a civilization is, perhaps the stronger a Shard becomes. Maybe investiture is a gamble Shards take to try and realize greater returns in the end.

If there's any truth to that, Odium may have found a way to "short out" the other Shards without direct conflict like he has been engaged in on Roshar. Perhaps the Desolations have taught him that direct conflict is not an effective way to splinter an enemy Shard. He probably got pretty frustrated when he basically wiped out humanity 999 times on Roshar, tortured the enemy's champions on multiple occasions (maybe for centuries or millenia), but they kept showing up anyway, killed everything in sight, released some of the most horrific things he could think of to kill everything in sight, forced the rocks, literally under his enemy's feet, to get up and try to kill them...and he still can't win. I mean, really, what's a guy got to do to complete a genocide on that rotten planet?!

It's quite possible, he found a better way to win and what you describe is it.

Hatred of the man who stole your love is not uncommon...jealousy. If Odium wants nothingness, it could be a "if I can't have her no one will" type thing. However, he's also going around killing other Shards. There's probably something else going on.