Dros

I'm thinking mirianme might have the right of it here....though Shards aren't killed per se, they are splintered. The Shardbearer can be killed, and I would assume Odium knows the Shardbearers. Saying He and Bavadin killed Unity or Honor wouldn't really make sense. And it's unlikely he mistook Dalinar for Tanavast. 

Or....maybe Unity showed up somewhere it shouldn't have? Maybe Odium was so surprised he used imprecise language and he did mean he and Bavadin killed Tanavast/Honor. Maybe with Tanavast that Shard is Honor, with Dalinar, it's Unity. 

Spoilers: I don't know how to do the tags! Sorry. Skip over if you don't want to see it, please. 

It always sounded like the Shattering was a controlled event to me. I'm assuming the letters in OB were meant for Hoid, and, if so, he declined to pick up a Shard. This makes me think two things could potentially explain his motivation ... 1. Hoid is just a really good guy and doesn't believe he is worthy...he's a decent guy, but he's no angel. Or 2. Hoid didn't like how the Shattering went down. Holding a Shard would change his actions and quest, i.e. If he held a Shard he would forget about pursuing whatever it is he's pursuing now. He knew that and avoided picking up a Shard. 

I imagine Hoid and the Shatterers were present at the Shattering because they knew it was coming. Doesn't mean they knew 16 of them would become gods by picking up Shards. Could've been the intent of those people being at the Shattering was to contain it and find a way to put Aldonalasium together again. But the unexpected existence of Shards that could be picked up, ruined that plan. 16 people snagged Shards picked them up and took off. Perhaps Hoid is the only one trying to carry out the original ShAtterers intent...contain and reunite.

 

 

The best evidence, as stated in my OP and my follow up post, is that he didn't destroy Sel or its population when he splintered Dominion and Devotion. What is different about Roshar?

Really good point and I agree, I can't figure that one out. I also agree that hatefulness in itself isn't evil and destroying everything would not further Odium's Intent. So---maybe there is another big bad we haven't seen--or--is it possible for a Shard Holder to go insane? Maybe losing so much made him rage, like the kid who can't take losing a CoD game. I don't know. But I agree something doesn't fit.

 

 

The letter specifically calls out Rayse for his unpleasantness, but I like to think that the author only met him after he became Odium. 

WoB: Hoid wrote the letter and Hoid and Rayse were buds.

I do think the inability to grow a beard would be an awful thing to bear, though. OTOH, Sazed went Hulk a few times in his life and he did give Wax a chestful of weapons to do some major damage on his enemies, so I don't think he's a total pacifist.

It's my understanding that WoB stated Shardic Intent was focused on the people of a world not necessarily focused on the Shard Holder themselves. However:

So it's not beyond precedence that Rayse might have internalized the hate inherent in Odium's Intent. Putting events into motion that will cause people to hate seems to be following the Intent of Odium. Killing massive amounts of people would probably make them hate, as well.

Whether Odium is evil? It's not the hatred, per se, that makes us think Odium is evil. It's his actions. Causing mass suffering to satisfy one's own whims, to me, is evil (profoundly immoral and malevolent).

I actually like the liquidating his investment in Roshar theory, though. Mostly because it helps rectify the original problem of having no one on Roshar to hate each other. But to answer #3's question, there's something out there much more powerful than Dominion or Devotion. If Odium wants to win without picking up another Shard, he's gonna need to be at full strength and be quite crafty. 

I had a conversation tonight about the Thrill and found myself explaining it to a first time reader of WoK, and found something interesting.

 

The Thrill is basically adrenaline. I don't think that any one disputes this?

But then I threw out the definition of Thrill; and a light bulb came on

Thrill:a sensation of excitement and  pleasure. 

This is about more than adrenaline junkies like Sadeas. It's about making the Alethi love fighting. 

 

The KR from Star fall talks about fighting, even against "the enemy" would change an individual, but they know how to stop it.

 

Dalinar himself is enjoying the Thrill in WoK then has a realization of the task brutality of what he is doing, and freezes up.

 

I think what we see in all the above cases is a mental recognition of what they are doing and what this makes them feel, and how the two should not coincide. 

Similar to a Scadrian recognizing that they are being manipulated by Emotional Allowmancy. Once they recognize that what they feel does not add up to what they believe, they have the tool to combat said manipulation.

Good explanation. I buy that.

So, now we know Tanavast could have survived the splintering of Honor...which means, Rayse went after Tanavast too. Right?

Thanks for the quotes Weiry.

When Kaladin spoke the words there was a blast of light and thunder, when you speak it verbally is it more powerful?

I always thought so. There's a voice that urges him to not just think them, but to speak them aloud. It was quite emphatic actually. There's something there about that, but haven't figured out what that is. Maybe it's akin to writing down measurements of spren, in which such an action holds the spren to those measurements?

 

 

Who will be left to hate if he has killed off all of Roshar’s peoples?

I've wrestled with this concept myself. I think WEZ and the others are basically on it. The shard itself has corrupted Rayse, who was already predisposed for such corruption it seems. A corrupt mind can do some things that aren't in any way beneficial, even to the instigator.

-or-

One theory that was tossed around, but generally not accepted was:

Odium isn't the one who wants the Everstorm to wipe out humanity and we haven't actually seen the big baddie for SA yet. 

Splintering honor and Tanavast dying can be different events right? Maybe one of the heralds did the soul casting and kept it safe in shinovar. Isn't there a WoB that rosharians are more cosmere aware than others? No high storms in Shinovar. Though I can't say how they come to kaladin's hands or how Tien understands what they are!

I don't know, actually. Can a Shardholder survive a splintering of their Shard? I had just assumed it was a death blow to the Shardholder to have their Shard splintered. Although we know two have died, I guess that doesn't really mean they died specifically from the splintering. Good question.

I'm not sure there was never technological advances beyond what primitive technology Kalak saw. I thought it was assumed the Desolations were so devastating that any advances were wiped out and mankind was basically forced to rebuild again after every Desolation. After all, how would Kalak have known the current technology was primitive if he had never experienced more advanced technology before then. (also assuming he is native to Roshar, which is far from certain.)

That being said, I'm not sure it was humans who created Blades and Plate in the first place. Blades go somewhere when not in use (presumably to the cognitive or spiritual realm) and the Plate is definitely different from when they were used by the Radiants. If it was the spren who created them and embedded a spiritual or cognitive aspect into them that bonded with humans, it's quite possible that spren would be harmed when that bond is broken. 

My problem with this is that Jasnah is proposing it. I know she's an in-world eminent scholar, etc. But I still don't buy her Parshmen/Voidbringer theory, so I think it's likely she's misinterpreting some things. This could be another one of those times.

The Radiants knew about the Thrill and figured out a way to avoid it. I imagine the first step in avoiding the Thrill, is recognizing it does something to you that is not desirable. Adolin didn't seem comfortable with what he was feeling, so this might be the first step in him trying to avoid the undesirable side effects that comes with the Thrill.

I am actually on maternity leave until March 12 .... thankfully my new little one was born just late enough to stretch it out past WoR release. I normally would read this in a day, but with the new little one I am just hoping to make it through before I have to go back to work.

Congrats! Good news in terms of the release is you'll be awake...alot--just about every two hours until the little one is satisfied to be exact! Bad news in terms of your sanity is you'll be awake...alot--just about every two hours until the little one is satisfied!

Doesn't seem like Hoid's MO though. He fancies himself a fly in the ointment, only now threatening war on--someone. He hasn't left much destruction in his wake that we know of up to this point--unless the Shattering of Andolnasium was his doing somehow.

I'm on the same page as WEZ; having trouble placing the voice of this Glimpse with any of the current characters.

I'm not sure about this one. Odium splinters Honor and when Tanavast's dead body drops to the ground, someone is there to soulcast it into stone? How would they know who the body belonged to? It's my understanding the Rosharians are not very Cosmere aware at the moment. I guess that doesn't mean they weren't at one time more aware, of course.

That being said, stone seems to be an important aspect of Roshar for the Shin and I'm not sure when that became so. It's quite possible, there were some people more aware than others, recognized something was happening, but didn't know precisely what it was (Honor being splintered), saw a body fall from thin air in front of them, didn't know who it was, but decided it must be someone important, and honored that person by soulcasting the body into stone never aware that the body belonged to Tanavast. 

However, I would think something like that would be kept somewhere secure and such a stone would find it difficult to find its way into Kaladin's hands in such a manner.

So, in conclusion...eh, it's possible, I guess. I definitely think you may have skimmed the surface of something more deep going on, though. Something about the idea sounds right to me, but not completely right. Sorry about the ramble.

Sounds somewhat like someone over Renarin's station asking him to give a demonstration of power to me. It's really seems too nonchalant to be within the context of combat. So perhaps someone doesn't believe Renarin has a Blade or has some other unknown ability we have yet to see.

Dalinar flashback? Maybe he's remembering his son(s) when they were younger? He may not remember his wife, but he might remember the grief his son's endured. 

When i read the word traitor i thought immediately of Amaram.Kaladin is coming for him and his boss Odium worns/mocks him.

I don't think Odium would say sorry...I think he'd most likely say "eat it, Amaram...bwhahahaha" or something similarly mocking. 

Because of the caps, the question that popped into my mind was: can Kaladin kill a Herald? I thought it looked like the Stormfather, i.e. the face in the storm, aka Jezrien (maybe); alias: guy who talks in ALL CAPS, knows Darkness is now coming for Kaladin and Syl, or he actually sent them. The face in the storm seems to be enforcing the "non-use" of the Oathpact and nahel bonds.

Just my first reaction. Really not much to go on with such a small bit of a quote.

edit: oops! looks like this was covered already...so, I'll just agree with the overall assumptions being made by various other Sharders 

It seems all the Shards are driven to assist life in their own ways. Even Ruin gave his defense of destruction in the name of creating viable, long lasting life. I imagine even Odium has his own defense of why his Intent is critical in sustaining thriving life. We have an example of what combining two opposing Shards can create--a state of Harmony, but not perfection. I would think the power of Creation, that is Andonasium, requires all of the Intents we see in the 16 Shards to create viable, longer lasting life and really wouldn't be considered good or evil, just like Weiry said. It's interesting that the holders of Shards realized that most times at least two of their Intents were required to create thriving lifeforms on their respective worlds. The problems on each world seems to be the Intents of the Shards, when separated, are TOO strongly represented to create a lasting balance.

A bigger question might be who decided all of these Intents needed to be meshed together to create a catalyst (Andonasium) for viable and balanced life in the Cosmere?

Edit: edited for Yolen spoiler, not much of one though, just being safe especially if I'm wrong

Same here. Perhaps the mechanism for the retreating is that the Shardpool beneath is what actually recedes, and the lake just flows down to fill the gap? Sure, you still need to figure out why the Shardpool recedes, but it fits more with the magical qualities of the Purelake.

I like that idea, but I can't help but think the large structure we saw in Dalinar's vision has something to do with it. It's apparently not there anymore, or at least no one has mentioned it in a few millennia. I would think someone would have mentioned massive ruins at the center of the Purelake. Where did it go?

I don't know, I got the impression that it was Dalinar's Blade in particular she didn't care for. She never before and has not since, mentioned a dislike for other Blades, has she? However, I will concede it may have been situational, i.e. it was the first time she focused her observation on a Shardblade. But IMO it didn't seem she was making a blanket statement about all Blades.

I also wondered at the purelake. if nothing else, a big lake that is only one meter deep should be geologically unstable. it would fill with sediments in no time, or it would evaporate, or grow. retreating underground during storms is another oddity.

So yes, I agree that there is something strange with the purelake. it could actually be a shardpool (can they be so big? all the others we saw were at most a few meters across), although it don't fit much with shardpool's known behaviour. It could be something else, but i'd bet for sure there is something unnatural with it

There is a real world equivalent: Lake Mattamuskeet in Eastern North Carolina. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mattamuskeet

And it was drained once. Lived near there for a time. A friend of mine grew up in Hyde County about a mile from that lake.

You can read about it at the links below. I was working in NC until May of 2013, that's why I was aware of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Board_of_North_Carolina

http://rt.com/usa/north-carolina-eugenics-program-932/

It was a law meant to sterilize mentally defective persons.

You know, I remember a theory put forth by someone, can't remember who so I can't give credit, sorry--but they theorized Odium either compels a Shard to invest heavily in a world, or takes advantage of that fact, and then strikes when the Shard is "weaker".