Caval

@Letryx13

That rings true. He is someone who starts with all these ideas and struggles with how to actualize them in a troubled world that is slow to change in some important ways and has difficulties that force such aims to be sidetracked.

Dalinar struggles in a world that is both stubborn in its ways and changing faster than he can manage. He changed to a person who truly holds to high ideals, yet struggles to actualize them in the world. He thinks that a world where the right to rule is implicitly strength of arms is one where true unity is impossible and honor always too far to reach. Yet, at the same time he is a military man and a natural power seeker and tyrant. He doesn't trust others to do things properly, especially when he doesn't understand what they are doing and why. He sees a world shifting away from the dynamic of king truly at the top and towards law and negotiation. In part this is the only thing that can truly align with his ideals, but it makes him uncomfortable all the same. Learning to read was a major step and his discomfort at fighting all the more forces him to seek another path. I hope in book 5, and maybe a bit so beyond that, we can see a Dalinar more fully coming into his own as a politician and diplomat. He has truly entered that world already.

This is an oversimplification of both, especially the first which I did not wish to discuss too much on a post and section of the forum unrelated to him, but  it says something all the same.

26 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Agreed.  It's something another King in the comere, although this one a philosopher turned king turned soldier, had trouble balancing.  But once he found out how balance both his military style mind with politics, he had a great deal more success.

@alder24

I wasn't claiming that all of it was his own perception, but specifically the idea that the way that they were responding to him was almost asking him to be violent, that the choice was between slow and ineffective politics and diplomacy with people who won't listen or fast violence that gets what you need, what the world needs, from an unwilling people. It was, in part, because of his experience in war and inexperience elsewhere that he felt so stiffled by his failures and took a while to find other paths that lead to success (though the use of the visions was inspired). He was in that position in part because of his reputation and his country's reputation throughout the centuries, and of course rumors of his madness, but even without that reputation there would be people in various countries resistant to his push for unity, at the very least hoping unity could come on their terms rather than his. He would feel stiffled and limited in options in that type of situation too, even if less so. That we would feel so restricted would in part be a result of his perception trained by his experience and inexperience.

They were unfamiliar with his diplomatic persona and that made some uncomfortable. They probably felt, in the back of their mind, that Dalinar is a wolf so the fact that he looks like a nice sheep means that there is trickery afoot. Indeed, it is not all his own perception. They certainly didn't want Dalinar the warmonger, but theh were uncomfortable with an unfamiliar Dalinar and waiting for the moment the "true Dalinar" comes out. It is still partially his own perception of things. He could not think of ways to communicate that diplomacy was his true goal effectively without resorting to his old ways and therefor felt like they almost wanted him to take that path, that they were forcing him into a corner, giving him no other option.

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I don't see this. I don't think Moash ever had an instinct to protect. He trained hard to get vengeance. He fought well at the Tower to prove how hard he had trained. He worked as a bodyguard to remain "in" Bridge Four's comraderie and because it was expected. He furthered those actions when he realized it might give him access to his revenge. And when he lost it all, he trains the Singers because he want's to recapture that feeling of acceptance and validation. Once he has is revenge, he cuts off his relations with the Singers he trained, becoming curt and distant - seeking his "numbness" over comraderie. Though he won't let himself admit it, he found what people always say - revenge doesn't help you feel better - so he instead seeks to avoid all emotion as a way to avoid his feelings of guilt.

I cannot, personally, see what he did initially with the singers (not training them, but preventing the worst of the abuses forcefully) as not involving some sort of instinct to protect. Indeed, the drive seemed to come from deep within and what he was driven to do was protect them. What could one call this besides having a protective instinct? We don't see it all too often, but I don't think that is because it isn't there, but because of habits of thought and action built up throughout his life. Kaladin spent his whole life interacting with his protective instinct in one way or another. He acted a surgeon's assistant, tried to protect his brother in the army, tried to protect his squad in the army, tried to help slaves run away, etc. Much of his life has been defined by it. Not so for Moash, but that is not to say that it does not exist, but that it has not been developed and the fact that it hasn't and that he does not lean into it is part of what leads him to where he is.

Dalinar's realizarion in chapter 59 that his feeling that everyone almost wants him to pull out the sword is partially a matter of his own perception. As he fails to quickly get people on his side in Oathbringer and the monarchs are dodging his inquiries he begins to feel like people are almost asking him to take a more violent path. In a way this comes to a head in Theylenah. He realizes that many factions in the kingdom still resist working with him because they fear him conquering them. His initial choice is to intimidate them, to show them he is so capable that if he is not coming in stabbing them that shows he intends to be peaceful. It is a ploy which he is familiar with, one that relies on fear. He has begun to feel uncomfortable with this, but cannot think of any other way. He then thinks of another direction and also realizes he needs advice from many types of people with different perspectives as his limited perspective has so failed him. He is what his life and choices have made him. He grew up in a military culture and had incredible skill as a soldier and a general that he kept working on throughout his life. He made a reputation for violence and war within an already warlike people. That he has the reputation he does and also fails initially to find paths to convince people without violence is a product of his origin and his actions throughout his life. I'll let some quotes from the chapter say the rest.

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Why couldn’t he ever convince anyone peacefully? Why couldn’t he get people to listen without first pounding them bloody—or, conversely, shocking them with his own wounds?

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Storms. Does everything I imagine have to be about destruction? About dying, broken bodies, smoke in the air and blood on the stones?

The warmth inside of him said that it did not.

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A hand touched his arm; Navani’s soft fingers. “Dalinar … what did you do?” “I listened.” The power was good for far, far more than breaking. We’ve been ignoring that. We’ve been ignoring answers right in front of our eyes.

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Dalinar knew that feeling: the lingering effects of Stormlight. “I should have seen it earlier—I should have sent for him the moment I saw those wounded. I’m a fool.” Dalinar shook his head. “Renarin has the ability to heal. He is new to his powers, as I am to mine, and can best heal those who were recently wounded. I wonder if it’s similar to what I’m doing. Once the soul grows accustomed to the wound, it’s much harder to fix.”

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“I think like an Alethi, as do most of my advisors. We consider the war, the conflict, but miss important facts. When I first learned of Renarin’s powers, I thought only of restoring people on the battlefield to continue the fight. I need you; I need the Azish. I need a coalition of leaders who see what I don’t, because we’re facing an enemy that doesn’t think like any we’ve faced before.” He bowed his head to her. “Please. Join me, Fen.”

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“Try me,” Dalinar said. “I’m starting to appreciate that the way I usually do things has severe limitations.”

1 hour ago, The Sibling said:

I find this so interesting! I'm so glad that you pointed it out. There are so many similarities between Kaladin and Moash. I find this one really interesting because it's Moash doing things that Kaladin taught him to do. Kaladin trained him and helped him become the person that he is, and now he's so dangerous and deadly because of Kaladin, and he does things like train these singers because even though he switched sides, it's almost like he wants to continue to emulate Kaladin.

Something else I just thought of. Part of Moash's decline was going from seeing Kaladin as just another person more than anyone else in bridge four to worshiping him more than anyone, in a new and twisted way. 

After his failed assassination of Elhokar he slowly starts to place Kaladin on a pedestal he could never reach. He eventually tells himself that humanity is broken, he is one of them, and "men like Kaladin" are the exception, the rare ones who can strive for greatness. 

Latter he says things like that Kaladin is the storm and such. It almost feels like Kaladin becomes a strange mythological figure in his personal pantheon and that his religion dictates treating this mythical entity in certain strange ways. 

The moment where he went from seeing Kaladin as a man, someone who, by virtue of being a person like anyone else, can of course be emulated, to something beyond him is when he started barreling quickly down the wrong path. 

Many character interactions are like that in the Stormlight Archives and I love it. Sanderson very effectively plays with the dynamic of characters either succeeding or failing at seeing how others are people with strengths and weaknesses, challenges they must overcome, pain of their own, skills that can be learned from. Of course there are subtle variations on this. It is not just success or failure, but many gradations on a vast landscape of possibilities. To list some of my favorites, this type of dynamic happens with Shallan and Jasnah as well as Kaladin and Shallan. Bridge Four also has some of this going on in various interactions.

19 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Honestly, I doubt that they were in the castle because Moash decided that they needed to be there. I don't think it was his desire for revenge that put them there. I figure that he trained them and then the singers sent them to the palace. Sure his actions resulted in them being there, but I don't blame him for their deaths. maybe they wouldn't have been there had it not been for Moash, but I think that if we're blaming people it's th fused. AT the very least I would say that it wasn't Moash's intent to use these singers as a means of revenge. Although, I have not read Oathbringer in a long time (currently reading WoR) so it's quite possible that I'm misremembering things.

Indeed, you could be right. As I said in my post I was focusing on what I thought the implications of the scenes we do have are for the parts we don't see, extrapolating from what we know based on what seems reasonable to get a better sense for his character.

To give more details for why I think he is the reason they are in the palace:

1. In his conversation with the fused he was told, among other things, that those who proved their passion among the ladder carries and survived would be rewarded, at least by being honored and having better positions, and his latter thoughts after the conversation imply that in the rest of the conversation there were at least subtle implications that if he proved himself he could potentially acquire his vengeance. My reading of what happened before the ellipses is that the fused was starting to talk about the vengeance sought by the fused in a way that let him have a new perspective of them that he, as a fellow seeker of vengeance, could respect. He even thought specifically about the way that for millenia the fused have been seeking vengeance during the few pages he was thinking about what decision he should make and in the end chose to teach the singers to use the spear.

2. Odium was probably aware Elhokar and the rest would be in the capital. He might not have known everything, but shards know a lot and have access to fortune. He had his unmade corrupt the spren in the Oathgate for that purpose and I'd imagine what he did with the queen was in anticipation of them coming rather than something he'd want to keep working with after the fall of the city, she didn't truly seem to be on his side even if she wasn't on the radiant's side. Odium knowing, and commanding certain things to happen makes it likely that he told some fused certain details. That would seem to make your theory plausible, but I hope my next bits will make it clear why I see things a bit differently. 

3. In the Moash viewpoints we got he was step by step taking on the perfect perspective to let Odium take his emotions. He was slowly moving into the direction of always pushing away his doubts and guilt with the idea that for one reason or another things are not his fault and there are some specific lines of his internal dialogue that I think Sanderson put in specifically to forshadow the way he would eventually give his emotions away to Odium. Many of his lines had a very similar feel to what Odium said to Dalinar later. I'd have to pull up the lines to know for sure though. Again, shards plan things out very subtly. We have seen in other series, like mistborn and warbreaker, the way that a shard can make very subtle moves influencing specific people to change the direction of the flow. They can do this well in advance and with extreme precision. Odium might have been blinded by some things and becoming less effective in some ways, but he is still a shard. I think he either noticed Moash far in advance or during some point whilst Moash marched with his armies. Moash was, I think, planned in advance to take on something like the role he did.

4. Part of the trajectory of things is that Moash quickly gained a greater and greater right to make his own moves in Odium's army. In Rythm of War this is clear, but just the conversation with the fused and what happened after seems to indicate that he was slowly approaching this freedom rather than getting it in one leap and bound. In fact, it started even before. To paraphrase from what the fused said, in this army so long as you prove yourself with your passion and then bow down in obedience when appropriate you can do a lot of what you want. Moash mastered that you could say and was increasingly taking up a special place with him transparently having the attention of a fused and then Odium himself.

5. The way Moash's fight to Elhokar was worded makes me believe that Moash knew to expect Elhokar was here, or alternatively was planning on going for the queen and Elhokar's son, but I think that less likely. What I think is most plausible is that Moash told the fused about the nature of his vengeance (perhaps as a part of the fused's discussion of the nature of the singers' quest for vengeance as that seems fitting, I share my story you share yours sort of thing) and after proving himself by success in the siege, perhaps in part resulting from the training he provided, he was rewarded with an opportunity to achieve his revenge. It is possible that it was also an order from the fused. Something like, "Here is your order, do this thing you told us you want to do." It would be something like an order/reward. I doubt in that type of circumstance Moash would hesitate to potentially preserve the life of his men like Kalidin would. He'd surely take on a potentially risky job and drag along others if it meant revenge. He had good instincts with his forceful attempts to reduce the abuse he saw. Yet, he is the sort of character who would never let that overpower his wish for vengeance. He is willing to stand up to authority, even the fused, to protect, but is willing to give that up if it means vengeance. 

As a brief entirely seperate matter, I think that the breaking or keeping of a bond with an honorspren, with syl and Kaladin as the big example, can be instructively understood along the lines of a sort of virtue ethics. Syl seemed less concerned about what Kaladin would do to Amaram, for example, than the kind of man thinking about Amaram and taking such actions would make him become. I have read some discussions where people have discussed what syl is objecting to and such (I cannot think of how to describe the aspects of the discussion I am thinking of) and oathbringer plays with that a bit as we learn that, besides the seeming hard and fast rule of not breaking oaths, the weakening of the bond is based on both the spren and the radiant's impression of their morality. It is a matter of their perspectives combined together. With the way the ideals work (the higher ones being personal) and the examples we have I think we can say that the ideals direct windrunners from wherever they are to being something better that fits some vague windrunner mold. It isn't about killing Elhokar or not, it is about whether or not the type of Kaladin who would help assassinate Elhokar would also be the type to, when need be, protect those who need protecting and have the proper judgement to decide who and when. Many have discussed the matter from the perspective that killing Elhokar might be acceptable and evaluating things partially through that lens. I think an even more valuable lens is that of what character the actions would form and what type of character they represent (in terms of a person's character rather than being a character in a story of course). This is why (spoiler in case someone comes here and has read oathbringer, but not rythm of war)

One of the most admirable aspects of various forms of virtue ethics, from my perspective, is the way they call upon you to take care of yourself. Only one who takes care of themself can properly take care of others. There are many other virtue ethics ideas I can bring into the way the windrunners work, but if I do that I should just create a new post.

Onto what I was working my way towards. Moash, like Kaladin, has instincts to protect. These instincts are subtly different. The primordial source of Moash's instict is related to what the oppression of others makes him feel. The primordial source of Kaladin's instict is what the suffering and death of others makes him feel. What ended up pulling their paths apart, in part, was that Kaladin ended up taking the path of taking this clay and moulding it into a true protector. In his third ideal he represents expanding his protective instinct, learning to see past what allows him to not feel the urge to protect them. He always had that potential. I recently read a post talking about the line of Elhokar being Dalinar's Tien and how that held the meaning of seeing Elhokar as a person, a person who is trying, rather than just a king who is failing. He takes of the blinders and sees a person and when he sees a person, a person struggling, he feels the urge to protect even if he does not like Elhokar. It is similar with the singers. He felt uncomfortable even before the third ideal, but the ideals are not one time things that suddenly change a charcter, they are built up to. The ideal is just the climax, much like with Dalinar's arc. Kalidin, in the conference where Jasnah is being a bit button pushy with the whole genocide thing, speaks of how the ideals give him a perspective where he cannot not see all the common people, even the singers, as worth protecting. 

Moash, instead of taking the path towards becoming a better man, accepts the dark underside of his instincts. He leans into his hatred of oppressors rather than care for the oppressed and concern for what they have to go through. Moash could have been a windrunner if he took a path of virtue, caring about his character rather than just his actions. If he fully took responsibility for the man he was, is, and might become he could have walked that path. Kaladin and the others stumbled as much as Moash, it just happened that Moash didn't get back up, he found another path, a path where he gives up himself to his darker aspects.

6 minutes ago, Marabout said:

I love Moash.

He is certainly a fun character. The most vocal opposition to Kaladin initially in Bridge Four. He seeks vengeance against the king. He hates the oppression he sees lighteyes as representing. He saw the arrival of the fused as what humankind deserves for their terrible ways of dealing with each other. I like how things all played out. Personally, I hope to see more of his vision of his own goals in the future, specifically those not connected to Kaladin. The fact that he has lately focused on Kaladin seems to imply that, having killed Elhokar and Roshone, some vague vengeance against all lighteyes is not his main focus at the moment. Alternatively, it could be his main focus, but he sees that as being achieved automatically by the singer conquest. Third, it could be his main goal and we have just not seen his actions in that area enough in the last book. How much does he care about things like the oppression of singers by singers or the way that humans enslaved by singers were treated better than some humans trated slaves at this point? How much is he guided by the vision of a singer empire where humans are slaves, but at least have food and equipment and such? How much is he guided by the hope of a singer empire where singers do not devolve into what he sees as the worst of human vices? So much more I wonder. I love him, and I also hate him a bit as I described in my post. Personally, when I first was reasing Oathbringer I was hoping Moash would manage to protect as many of the singers Kaladin was with as possible and we would see their unique perspective in future books. I am still hoping that Sah's daughter who was taken from him, who gave Kaladin water and did not fear him, who hoped alongside Kaladin for the possibility of peace whilst ignorant of the terrible realities of war and slavery as a sociopolitical system, comes up again, perhaps as a viewpoint character. Even if some of the rest of them survived I don't think I could read something about their perspective without wincing given how I feel about how things went down. The daughter is separated from that and also had a create interaction with Kaladin. Maybe she could end up being relevant in the second section of the Stormlight series?

In my most recent reread of Oathbringer I have reached the part where Moash speaks to Leshwi and then chooses to train the singers who were punished for being with Kaladin. There is a lot of Moash hate, I don't particularly hate him. I do just a little though, and for a reason that I have not found discussed, though I have searched for it (perhaps I just haven't found it). Moash chose to train those singers used and abused unfairly rather than simply leaving and also letting them die. What did he do with that? Clearly some of their number survived as Kaladin saw them. Where did they end up, probably because of Moash? They ended up in the palace. Why? Probably because of Moash's thirst for vengeance. Then more of them died fighting those palace guards. They did not need to die there. 

From my perspective Moash learned from what Kaladin did with Bridge Four and twisted it from something beautiful to something ugly. I personally don't much mind vengeance or Moash's attempts to kill Elhokar. I would advocate him handling and thinking about things in a subtly different manner, at least, but I do not mind it even if I also respect Kaladin's decision to protect Elhokar. His actions after killing Elhokar are extremely toxic and targeted, but I cannot bring myself to hate him for it. It became expected and there was plently else to feel. It is what he did with Sah and the rest that bothers me most, that, in my eyes, shows me what type of person he is, importantly before he went full voidbringer. 

Moash cared about the terrible treatment, but not because terrible treatment disturbs him in general, but because it disturbed his ability to view the singers as a force more righteous than they are, a view that was somehow helping him hold himself together. When he did help them it was seemingly with the end goal of proving himself and achieving his vengeance rather than because these people deserve better and he just so happened to be someone who could help them. To me it shows a difference between Moash and Kaladin that is at the source of their diverging paths. They are foils of each other. Moash represents something Kaladin could have become. They are very similar in many ways, for example, importantly, the way they view lighteyes. The differences within the similarities often teach the most. I consider Moash's actions, especially the implied "offscreen" ones, with that small group of singers to be a moment providing that type of subtle contrast.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

My read on it was more social and political. "[t]he spren" is not a description of individuals and their interactions. When Jasnah was in Shadesmar it was an event that was relevant for all spren and the world itself because she was stirring up (or at least representing) Radiant-like business-- not something spren could ignore or remain unaffected by. Other worldhoppers seem both rare and mostly interested in pursuing their own business, so not really something the spren have to "deal with".

A reasonable interpretation.

Now I am kind of wondering why there were no random references to Jasnah's trip through Shadesmar in the latter trips shown in the story, if only the fact that it happened. Surely if "the spren" as a social and political group have to "deal with" someone in the sense you imply and it created "quite a disturbance" then a reference to the fact that another troublesome human or a radiant has come through Shadesmar would not be unexpected as at least an off hand comment.

Perhaps, though the most natural way of interpreting "the spren" is as referring to all spren living in Shadesmar. Of course, the very fact that the radiants are returning and the Stormfather is handing out the visions makes that in a way false all on its own. Perhaps then "the spren" was always intended to have a more specific reference or even a vague one like 'most of the spren'.

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, it is Wit, so you have to take anything he says with a grain of salt - but I always took this passage as to mean the area where Jasnah travelled - or the spren she interacted with - were not used to travellers. Of course, at this point of the story Jasnah has no idea about his true nature (unlike RoW where he has started to confide in her), and he is trying to conceal that he has access to Fortune, so of course he would use a "technically true" quip to dodge the question. . .

It does seem likely that until Jasnah appeared he did not know why he had to be there and he was making an excuse that would slide. Though in the end it does not turn out to be technically true, though Jasnah could have been interacting only with spren who had not seen someone alive in a long time and Wit could have known somehow.

At the end of Words of Radiance the following interaction occurs:

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“How did you find me?” she asked.

“You’ve been making quite a disturbance on the other side,” Wit said. “It’s been a long time since the spren had to deal with someone alive, particularly someone so demanding as yourself.”

In the following books it is shown that spren did deal with living people, if not in their own major cities. These people are almost all various worldhoppers and they are not all that numerous, but they are not non-existent. I'd imagine that Jasnah would make a disturbance regardless. There are not that many people and Jasnah is specifically a radiant. 

It just seems there is a contradiction, perhaps a subtle retcon. Perhaps I am misremembering and there were absolutely no interactions between worldhoppers and spren, but I recall otherwise and I have been rereading the stormlight archives over and over again recently. Still doesn't mean I cannot be wrong of course.