Lemiltock

Perhaps, but she could have made this discovery after her imprisionment and then Odium would not also have this weapon. Working with the enemy to develop a weapon isnt the wrong choice? Because she did work with her, she was barely cohersed with simple promises of knowledge. Again, she chose to work with the enemy, and not just singers, which could be justified as just another group of people that working together we can reconsile our differences, it was working with a fussed and Odium to again develop a weapon. So tempted by Odium and for knowledge, she knew anytbing she discovered would end up i Odiums hands, she didnt care. This is the crux of the issue, she chose to further her own knowledge and renown rather than not working with Odium, the choice is simple, she just wanted the carrot and didnt care how big the stick was. Did she, what influense other than giving them a weapon and giving them the location of a node did she have? She didnt bargain for her peoples safety, she bargained for knowledge and trusted the empty promise of well leave the tower, who would have thought that a fused would lie to her. No it wasnt idle, she activley developed the equivelent of a nuke for them. Which again is the issue, she activly worked with Odium to develop a weapon. Choosing to not look at it that didnt change that she knew Odium would use the knowledge she found and weaponise it. Ohhh no dont look through my things, please dont listen in on me, she didnt try very hard, writing it all in her notebook. Again just because she lied to herself doesnt mean she didnt hand nukes on a ailver plater to Odium not difficult at all, do you a) work with Odium for no gain other than knowledge or b ) dont work with Odium. The choice really is simple, ahe wasnt tortured, her peopke wernt tortured it was hey come to the dark side, we have cookies. If she had been forced things would be different but she chose to betray humanity for a little bit of knowledge.

The other downside to an oath focusing on killing is what about the non soldier radiants. Given the 5th oath of the skybreakers makes them the embodiment if justice, i feel the 5th oath for the windrunners (and all the orders) will follow suite I.E. the embodiment of protection, self mastery, self truth etc. How these are worded im not sure.

You mean Dabbid wouldnt have found Kaladin amd the sibling asked him to help protect the nodes. The well node was found because of Navani, she willing gave information, aftee being out played the first time she shluld have realisea anything she discoveres would be found and used by the fussed. She effectivley built a weapon for the fusses, things would be different if she had that research and they found it and used it as a weapon, but they didnt. Navani willing chose to share her findigns with fussed if it only ment she could be the one to discover it, she should bear the full responsibility for working as R&D for Odium. Team Honor also didnt need a weapon, they had a strategy, contest of champions, and a means of forcing it by storing fussed and unmade into gems, which they had already done once. Odiums force gained far more from this discovery, and the discovery came because Navani worked with the enemy. What she did in the tower besides bonding the sibling did nothing to save it, she at every turn made things worse for those she was supposed to protect all because she was playing scholar and not caring for the consequence.

Thats not a consequence for giving the enemy the means to destory spren. Like i get story wise its a way to deal with immortal beings, but in world why is nobody pissed that while everyone was captured, Navani decided it was a great idea to develop weapons for the enemy!

She also has to make up for the fact that she taught Odiums forces how to kill spren. Thats a big thing to overcome. Im annoyed that in all the reconailiation no one was like oh hey Navani you screwed up big here (like Phendorana is as much on her head as Moash) and need to clean up your mess.

The part youve highlighted has them fit in as group 2. A final scene is not necissarialy a POV chapter or conclusion to their quest, just a final scene of their characters in the final part of the book which makes sence as they (especially Shallan) are main characters.

Still the two character POV for group 2/3 does line up with shallan and adolin being in a group with relative nobodies, they could be part of group 3, but shallan also showed up in part 1. Or they could be group 2 with a close out ti their arc but not a POV in part 5.

As detailed in my previous post i dont see it focusing on leadership. I do see Kaladins development pushing towards letting go when others choice to put hemselves in danger (even Vasher makes not of this) and this fits with the gem archive message of wanting to protect everyone. Im not sure the wording it will take but think it will be along the triage lines of protecting those he can.

Hmmm I cant think of anything specific i may be being overly critical of the Stormfather but I am rereading and will keep an eye out. I think Shallan and Kaladins issues are not oath related persay, and the notion that they need to be broken to let a spren in IMO is exaggerated significantly, sure the main cast fit, but alot of the other radients dont seem broken. I think (with no supporting evidence) that the plate provided is a side effect of what happens with the secondary spren (binding?), but it its a huge power boost as well as the increase in stormlight efficiency so i doubt there is extra going on here. The bigger question for me is what does the 5th oath provide. But thats perhaps a discussion for elsewhere

I think relativley, hes only a few oaths in, so his mind doesnt line up with a human. He has also exadurated before to scare/owe people into listening. But there may be something here, but I think its not this, maybe it is better connection to honor. I think the heralds can potentially draw stormlight from one of three things, the Honorblades, Honor himself or the Oathpact or perhaps a combination. IMO the Honorblades grant the surges, the oathpact binds them ti the rebirth cycle and both together privde the connection to Honor so he can power them directly. Hes not so cautious as to be worshiped as a god by the horneaters, his worry seems ro be more dirext dont poke Odium, while in Odiums city. And for a power like direct access to stormlight and surges with no oaths, I would say its worth extra risk afterall he risked being found out by finding and bonding his cryptic

True, I dont think the stormfather is entirly a correct narrator, look at his interactions with Kaladin and Syl. But thats just what i get from his character, he makes things seem grander than they are. Certainly, but at the level of power weve seen that can direct/draw power from the spiritual, the stormfather is the lowest on the peg power wise and even he does it during an event (I.E. the highstorm always grants stormlight from the stormfather) This is Hoid, he who killed god, if anyone can do unbelievable things its him. Theyre the two main things I remeber, one he had to get through the well of echos (a prison for shards and Kelsier) and the other was guarded. I think stealing an honorblade would be harder, but if it granted stormlight on demand then it would be worth the hastle. I ment this more in a if its suits him hes not affraid to show off Certainly hard, but not impossible. He doesnt need to hsrm them, just make them think he has to harm them. Or in the true Hoid way, charm them/goad them into thinking its best for them. An immortal man with significant resources could easily get a blade that gives direct access to stormlight.

Next chapter looks to be Navani from the anitations and will be the last chapter of part 1 I think abandoning the Oathpact is a bigger seperation than holding onto their swords, abanding them was the symbolic abandoning not the actual. I also dont think the madness is all due to breaking their intent, i suspect part of it has to do with torture and another part with living longer than a mind should. ill quote the specific section from the WoB i posted above.

The biggest issue here is when you consider the other orders. For the windrunners it is about protection and their Divine Attributes somewhat match. What about the Skybreakers, neither Just or Confident comes to mind when you consider swearing yourself to another, or a personal quest. The Dustbringers selfmaster is unlikely to relate to bravery or obedience. For the edgedances, loving at a stretch is about remembering other, but healing does not The same with Truthwatchers, seeking truth loosly relates ti learned, but not giving Lightweavers truths are anything but creative, but they are honest Elsecallers selfmaster doesnt match up with wise or careful Willshapers I will seek freedom also is noy resolute or building The stonewardz like the windrunners line up with their first, dependable, but unlilley their second of resourceful And dalinars oaths have been neither pious or guiding From looking at all of the orders as a whole, I dont think the oaths will match the Devine attributes. I see them being cornerstones of the order, (the skybreakers are just and confident etc) but not as characteristics of their oaths.

I imagine surgebinding like a 5th oath radient, but with the lack of oaths is quite significant, especially for some surges. But he may be grain of truthing it as well. Yer i feel Brandon hasnt explored these mechanics deep enough yet, but hopefully he will. Theyre likely less invested than the fused, and they need to refil voidlight. (Maybe not the 9 pillars, and it may be filled from Odium directly, but from the Pursuer needing to go away to refil i find gems the likly source) Only if you can cut Hoid, a super powerful, super crafty not quite person anymore. I would back Hoids ability to move faster and trickier than the heralds or Vasher and they are faster and more experienced fhan a mortal. Hoid has stolen rare relics from across the cosmere, and while they ahve required effort hes never really struggled from what weve seen. I agree, and has other small advantages I think (less power more ease I.E. a companion vs carrying a sword) but if the Honorblades granted a tap to the spiritual it would be worth the cost, especially given the Horneaters already think him a God so hes not above being know on occasions. Just because he takes advantage of vulnerabilities, doesnt mean Hoid the craftiest entity in the Cosmere needs things to be going wrong to steal stuff. Hoid is IMO far more skillful than just having access and taking advantage of Fortune.

I see this as Stormfather making the unknown sound dangerous so Dalinar doesnt dig, not him giving actual information persay It is something Dalinar does, but because of the stormfather (and presumably Tanavasts CS now in the Stormfather), much like Kaladin lashes, but its only because of Syl that he can do this. I remeber it recharging everyone/thing but id need to go back and look Maybe, but given enough investiture will eventual become scentient that the likely way is to keep its power bellow a threshold (admitidly this is likely a very high threashold) and them being godmetals may affect this (technically they are of Honor i suppose) Certainly agree, but still less so then other scentient splinters I.E. the Stormfather True, but he has also set Moash up to be a great fighter throughout the books, hes also quite tactical and learning from the fused Hoid heals faster than someone like Kaladin, he also seems to think a shardblade would not hurt him at all and he has a good understanding of cosmere magic. They would all be very important but Hoid would only need one to get his investiture tap. Hoid the master of disguise couldnt pretend to be a Shin to the point where he is trained to use them (several Shin are so its not uncommon) and once hes holding on, Hoid out. He can also hurt in non traditional sence, make noise so they dont sleep, make himself look dangerous so the summon then, take the sword from theire hand (hes strong and fsst just cant hurt) then Hoid out. Hes gotten hold of rare heavily guarded hidden away objects all ober the cosmere, if it wasnt Hoid id agree, but for Hoid it would probs be like another tuesday.

I can see your interpretation, I still think mine is correct but unfortunatley WoB trnd to be ambigious, I do however still think with honor being shattered will have effected it. I dont put much stock in the stormfather, who is gruff still bonding Dalinar and doesnt like sharing information. The Stormfather also doesnt seem upset that Dalinar can open a perpediculary, he is suprised but doesnt seem to try and stop him. If his worry with the honorblades was about Stormlight he would also likey take issue with Dalinar using this ability. I dont think its similar enough, the extra step from powers can draw from the spiritual at a cost to at no cost doesnt have a precedence IMO Except we have no precedence for it, the honor blades dont seem to be scentient which buts their inate investiture as quite low, they are splinters and being godmetals explains why you can surgebind while holding them (the cost here is touch rather than using it up to gain the ability) and the only non shard we have seen is the stormfather who has more investiture than the nightblood. Yer it is the closest and like i said above both being god metals seem to follow a similar mechanic in that they provide access to the magic system at a cost. I see Moash as a much worse enemy then Seth despite the slight difference in their swordsmanship. The anti-moral that he provides will make the bridgment and windrunners as a whole less effective when facing him. Harder to get off planet then the spren he bounded, with tbe added benefit of a direct tap of investiture from the spiritual and no oaths, its an easy pick there for Hoid. Even if Hoid wasnt the sneakiest person in the Cosmere and an excelent theif, he basically laughed at Jasnah when she drew her spren and said I doubt that would even hurt me. So despite his inability to hurt he could easily steal it, or just walk in and laugh as they do nothing. I was suggesting he take one blade, not collect all 10. A spren may offer the advantage of not needing to carry the sword, but if the sword gave him unlimited free stormlight I dont see him turning this down.

Shes had a year time skip, and litterally her entire life as a heritec and princess, whes been politically tested. I also wasnt suggesting the just fold to her but she is clearly the most mighty and even if they disagree she can and will beat them into submission. They certainly are, like Dalinars complaint, to which Jasnah quickly and confidently reminded him it was her call, she was in charge, you will yield to me. She is leading like an Alethi (confident and powerful) and she can back up her bark both intellectually and physically. Again im not suggesting they let her do it, im suggesting she will make them accept her rule. We have seen Jasnah not bend to others will and she is both powerful and intelligent.

I agree alot of this doesnt have strong evidence either way. Ahhh i understand now I agree plausable but given its extra will need evidence to support it. I didnt look at them that way, and its certainly possible however both trade something for the investiture, the metal or water IIRC. Where as the Honorblades are not used up in the process so I think there is still enough difference to call the allomancy/sand master mechanic different from being a conduit but I dont have much evidence either way and could see this being work under the same mechanic Haha he is a weird edge case but he also does that with the stormfather (and Tanavasts CS) I think I worded this poorly, what i ment was the Stormfather is closer to a shard in term of power than he is to a normal spren, or even a normal spren is to a human. So i think his case certainly allows others entities to do it, but not just anyone to do it. Honorblades are certainly more powerful, although a Lerasium bead permanentally gives you allomancy not just while holding it. And while it certainly gives stronger allomantic ability, it doesnt give some extra connection to the spiritual that allows the user to draw directly from the spiritual. Ive also had two furth thoughts. The first is about Moash and Odium, i think this is the strongest evidence that they do not grant investiture. As Odium would be aware of what the Honirblades can do and we dont see Moash performing Herald level surgebinding. The weakness here is that we havnt seen a significant amount of surgebinding on his half either. The second is Hoid, if the Honorblades granted such a powerful and unique ability he would certainly be trying to get one, and I imagine would not struggle to do so.

Its not so much the he doesnt have enough, its the learned response to opportunity cost. If he uses that lash now, when he coukd just chase her he cant lash later in an instance where he cna only lash. The cost while small in this case is not always and leads to a mentality of saving stormlight when other options exist. This mentality would not be present if he could refil his stormlight with ease. Yer its painful, i thought there was another but couldnt find it. Basically breath sticjs better because its breath. And the second is the energy(investiture) is neither created or destroyed it changes forms. Yes i did confuse these, however, the necrosil grants only the ability to use the power stored. If you stored surgebinding it would grant you access to the surge an dthe ability to draw in (breath) storm light. It would not grant you direct access to the spiritual to fuel said surge. The summoning came later anyway, and the Heralds did not summon them in the same way (see taln just dropping his blade). The Shin would have not seen the Honorblades summoned/unsummoned to know this was possible. They most certainly saw the heralds surgdbind, and draw in stormlight differently to radiants. Even if they didnt its not a stretch to need stormlight and not realise your apheres are empty, keep trying to draw it in and use the Honorblade for this purpose the intent is there (give me stormlight) and they know they can draw it, the spheres just ran dry. I find it unlikly that a similar mechanic would not have been discovered. This is likely more an issue of how much they can use then they can draw at once, see Elend when drawing on Preservation. He could use unlimited allomancy, and he didnt punch a whole through the earth due to rediculous strength (with his foot and pewter, or steel and his anchor) but in either case the Honorblades being an unlimited source of power for the surgebinding it grants would make Moash unbeatable, especially given Odium would know if it could draw stormlight directly. You argued that lesser spren do this, i may have missread however. In either case the spren copied what honor did with the honorblades. They may have just not been able to do that but it seems like a stretch to say they copied honorblades except for that one major power. Even if it granted this ability, it is not precedented, no where in the cosmere can a person connect to the spiritual and draw investiture forth. The stormfather is IIRC the only non shard to do anything close, and he is farther from a normal spren then he is a person. Given the mechanics weve seen by other shards its far more likely that this was granted through Honor than by a tool created by said Shard, especially when no other tool does this.

I just want to focus on the "might makes right" of Alethkar. Who is more mighty than Jasnah, ill list a couple of things about her here. 1. Queen of Alethkar 2. Well learned (perhaps one of the most on Roshar) she could be considered a polymath 3. Huge political acumen 4. Elsecaller of 4th or possibly 5th oath and has no issue showing off her surgebinding capabilities 5. only Elsecaller 6. A very practiced, capable and confident debater 7. Her soulcasting ability, she literally soul cast steps out if air. If anyone is mighty it is Jasnah and as such, Alethkar will fold to her will as they closly follow "might makes right"

Yes he is, but with pouches the stormlight is still limited, if stormlight was unlimited we would see him using surgebinding for mundane things when the surgebinding is better because theres no cost. If instead he needs to carry his stormlight it becomes a limited resource and hes likly to use alternative means where possible as only somethings can be done with surgebinding, and you dont want to not have enough to fly to the top of that building because you flew down that corridor to save 2 seconds. Here are two WoB one focus on unkeyed but it talks about the two aspects of the investiture (ability to use feurochemy and investiture to power it), the second shows that the medalions which contain necrosil metalminds need refilling. Seth certainly did, having trained with them, and being part of the group of people that have had the Honorblades since the heralds relinquished them. All g, it happens Ill post some WoB about the breath below I thought there was a more explicit one but they cover the points on how breath functions i think. On the rosharan animals bonding with spren, they most certainly get their investiture from the highstorms. If they could, why then would radient spren be unable to get investiture from the spiritual realm, they are more sentient and came about by copying the Honorblades. Yet they cannot so I doubt that normal, nonsentient spren can achieve this. It is also a point towards honorblads not doing this as thats what the spren "copied". If it is a conduit to the spiritual realm, then it grants an infinite amount, they may have a certain sized pipe to speek and are limited in investiture per seconds, but so long as there is investiture in the spiritual to be drawn, they can draw it (if theyre conduits) and can therefore draw an infinite amount. Yes heamalurgy can likely alsos teal the base attributes, but when it steals the ability to perform feurochemy or alomancy it doesnt impart a chunk of power to use those. On thinking about it, however, i may be wrong with alomancy as a necrosil metalmind stores the ability to use magic. The bands of mourning likely also had unkeyed metal minds for the feurochemy. This does also fit better with the Honorblades as they grant access to a magic system, and not its power directly. I.E. they let a user draw in stormlight and surgebind, but dont provide the stormlight themselves. Yes as above i think i did combind feurochemy and alomancy where i shouldnt have.

Which if surgebinding is always limited by resources you learn to be sparing with it even small amounts. If he never had to worry about stormlight, then he would likely over use surgebinding even when not needed as it has no cost. Super, probs so theres no they have to steal someones I ment the intent of they think they need the metals to key it, but they dont and so are having the metals for no reason (not that i think this just an example) the metals IMO key the stored investiture for use, while the metalmind provides the spiritweb ability and the investiture for said ability True, but seth had one for 2 books, and then Dalinar/Kaladin had one for another book so theyve played a significant role I dont think i mentioned a new mechanic, a cognitive entitiy of sufficient powef passes investiture from the spiritual to the physical (Honor, Stormfather etc) this i feel is an existing mechanic. The Honorblade (which are non sapient) drawing power directly from the spiritual is more like a new mechanic There are two parts here, the ability to use a metalic art, which can be stone and stapled on, this doesnt staple a stored goldmind to your spirit web, just the ability to create and use goldminds etc The metalmind provides this and the investiture to fuel said ability, this is most noticable with the feurochemic abilitys, Wax does not need to store his own metalminds while tappjng the bands of mourning, he uses the band of mournings investiture. Yes he can adjust how much he draws but hes fueling the allomancy with more investiture frkm the bands. I.E. it doesnt give his spirit web a stronger alchemy ability, it gives more investiture to the ability he can now use (temporarialy) and hence drains the bands faster

They do, but it is still limited and thus he wpuld only use what he needs to when he needs to. I.E. if he could accomplish something without surgebinding he would if it was not also using a limited resource as theres no cost but surgebinding has opportunity cost associated with it (unless you can draw stormlight from the spiritual) in that surgebinding now prevents it later (at equal portions) This is true and i agree it weird, it may be that they leave their bodies on roshar but we dont know enough and this is certainly different from the fussed. Yes intent plays a part, but a mistborn cant intent to use feurochemy and have it happen, theres a limit to what intent can do. Awakening shows this the best, grab something vs grab something when thrown thats not me etc. This is a limit, but given well have less than 10 core characters not really a limit, all the MCs get an Honorblade and can sudenly blow everything up with bulk surgebinding. I stand corrected, thanks for the link i missed this on my most recent reread Newer doesnt mean they understand it better. They dont store your spirit web, they store the investiture used for purpose, when a normal metalmind is used they store their own things(health etc) which is converted to investiture and then they draw that investiture out and use it as it was store. They cant store weight and draw out speed. To key the investiture, and this may be an intent thing here, not realise the investiture is already keyed. However when Wax uses the bands of mourning the specific abilities investiture is used, proportional to how much he draws. If it just gave the ability the amount used would only be a function of time, not time and effort (for lack of a better word).

I did forget this portion, however it still stands he did not surgebind where it would have made his job significantly easier, and so he is limiting himself for some reason. The most likley is to preserve stormlight as he may need more later. This is due to them being cognitive shadows, which admitedly was done to them when tbey became heralds. I think it fits the champions of Honor to have a direct connection to his power than the honorblades having that connection. Perhaps, or you could just include a drawback to using the Honorblades that doesnt then require you to retcon how things work because they didnt think of it. Deadblades didnt either, they where added to give them the ability to dismiss and summon them. It would have been noted that the Honorblade laked a gem when Seth wielded it, or showed it to people as this would be something obviously different about it. I posted a WoB, yes they dont understand the relmatics perfectly, but their lack of understanding the mechanics isnt an argument for a different mechanic to take place. Metalminds work by storing and then redrawing investiture for use later, with items like the bands or mourning they are storing allomantic investiture rather than speed, or health etc

No, he also cant draw stormlight directly from the spiritual. So presumably as honorblades use more stormlight Nale would require more, so he would use surgebinding less. If he had access to unlimited stormlight he wouldnt holdback on the amount of surgebinding. Honor who is practically Omnipresent in the Roshar system (remember Dalinar can surgebind because the Stormfather is everywhere on Roshar) so not a huge concern for him to provide his power to his 10 generals while they fight odiums forces. Perhaps, but then doesnt that diminish the heralds. Why have stormlight be an issue that could be circumvented by holding an Honorblade. Especially given the Honorblades have played a big role in the conflict. The Shin gound it straight away so they saw the heralds. Yes but they also didnt summon/dismiss them as this was worked out later by affixing a gemstone to the pommel and so they would have copied off of that and not the heralds, who disnt dismiss their blades. No, they store their allomantic investiture into the necrosil metalmind. The necrosil investiture is used up instead of the spiritual. You drain the investiture from the metalmind. And the amount you drain is proportional to the amount of power used. Wax says he would need to compound to add back into the metal mind, if they drew from the spiritual he could just pour the investiture into the metalmind. Something is being taken from the necrosil portion of the metalmind see below.