Dalinar'sCroissant

Actually this makes sense with how I saw the shattering in my mind based on the info we got in Dawnshard. These four commands could exist in harmony passively but if actively pushed against each other they'd break investiture.

I interpreted the dawnshard's function in the shattering as akin to running a programme with contradicting commands. Adonalsium's version of "does not compute" was to initially shatter in 4 pieces, each piece aligned to each command to be able to execute it. Presumably, the programme was still running even after this initial shattering, which led to the next 4x shattering.

As to how they "held" the Dawnshards, I think that in a universe where magic exists upon creation much like matter or energy, it follows rules. These rules just happen to be four (at a basic level, presumably spamming more rules as a result of their interaction) and at some point very intelligent beings with knowledge of realmatics figured out how to dilute them using Command and Intent. I could see someone like Frost being amongst the ones who figured it out, Nikli says these matters are beyond mortal comprehension but an immortal, super smart dragon? more likely.

22 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Similar to how if you saw Tanavast on Roshar today, he’d have double pupils

But any effects would probably far less pronounced  

Oh I didn't know that WOB, that's a cool ine!

Regarding the less pronounced aspect though, I'd argue differently. So people in Roshar think Tanavast has weird pupils, but this not an "active" belief. It's passive in the sense that it's a description they've heard and visualized in their minds.

With someone like Kelsier however, the belief is super active because people choose or grow in the faith of the Survivor and visualise him strongly (with both thought and emotion) as a survivor and a type of God. I wonder is this much stronger belief (especially after centuries) supercharges his cognitive aspect and the abilities he might have.

Which leads me to think of extrapolations... what if an immortal such as hoid or frost would have created a legend about someone millenia ago that people believed in?

Or, more concretely, could this supercharge help shard plans? Like, does this apply to an "avatar" such as Trell? For example, if this cognitive supercharge aids the powers of a cognitive aspect then establishing a religion such as Trellism around an avatar would give them an extra oomph in what they can do in the different realms?

Hi!

If this has been previously suggested/discussed, please let me know... a cursory search didn't yield many results but I'd love to read similar ideas/discussion. I also wasn't sure wherher to post this here or at Mistborn but I thinkits more realmatic oriented anyway... I do appreciate guidance/advice.

So I recently re-read era1 and secret history. From what I understand, based on the texts and WOBs, Kelsier managed to remain in the cognitive and become a cognitive shadow because of the extra investiture he got at the Well of Ascension and by Ascending while holding Preservations power. So, clear: the more invested you are/have been, the more you can resist the beyond.

However, I also got thinking about the cognitive realm as we understand it. With soulcasting, for example, its harder to objects with a strong cognitive identity i.e- if it's a watch used for generations in a family, it's harder to convince it to change to something else. From what I understand, this is because people have thought about it in that way for a long time.

In regards to Kelsier, he started his own religion and mythos about being a survivor. So that means loads of people think of him that way. I get that objects and souls are different in the cognitive realm. However it got me thinking:

As the church of the survivor grew, then more and more people overtime thought (passionately and fervently so) of Kelsier as a survivor. Would this, then, give him a better ability to stay within the cognitive realm? Or even give him extra abilities to manifest in the physical if the cognitive aspect is that strong? We often joke that post catecendre he made yet another cult about himself... but what if that is just to enhance his cognitive properties?

Realmatically extrapolating this... if the above is considered possible, then if you somehow trick an invested world's populace to believe in someone as a survivor or something along those lines... then you could have the same effect? Someone as long lived as a shard, Hoid or Frost (or any of the immortals) could have started such a legend millenia ago to replicate the effect.

Or not. 

What do you think of this overly analysed shiwer thought?

6 hours ago, Karger said:

To be fair Jasnah is a tactician not a historian in this version.

True true. However, this bothers me too. Jasnah is explained to always just have had a natural mind for it which ok, great...but that's not necesarilly how things work? You can be a naturally talented strategist but in order to understand war tactics you need to understand the uses/characteristics of various war elements (formations, strategies, shardplates, swords, towers, terrains...) and that comes from either education or experience. As Jasnah has never been a soldier, I'd assume it was education which would then also include knowledge of war history... at least enough of it to be able to validate many of Taln's stories and strategies.

To be fair, I generally don't like when characters are just amazing at something without trying... which is a gripe I had with this book, yet it's something Sanderson manages so well in the actual SA that I will never cease to be amazed at his skill development. 

On 26/06/2020 at 5:01 PM, Yolenlightweaver said:

Hope/Optimisim: This is where the tie starts to get strenuous. If we go back to Caution, Hope is also something that would need to be reconsidered since Fortune plays a big hand in knowing vs. hoping. This would be the deific balance for the Agony/Guilt/Regret.

This is extremely interesting and I would actually love to see some kind of twist to it. I would love to see, for example, Hope being used in a similar light as that Nietzsche quote regarding Pandora's box:

"Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment."

Having read this book, I am glad this didn't end up being the final version because it's clear Brandon evolved as a writer to a much higher level than what was displayed in this book. 

Overall, I liked it but nothing to write home about. It felt a lot like an 80's or early 90's fantasy to me, not sure if anyone felt that way too?

Rambling thoughts (all of them as a comparative to the current Stormlight Archive. I know it might not be a fair comparative to make, but to me it's interesting in realising the improvement of Brandon as an author and why SA works so well for me):

Merin was a bit of a Mary sue compared to Kaladin - not only do we really see Kaladin train to earn his achievements, but his mind is tactical.. soldier-like. Merin just seems to stumble into success most of the time.

I liked this Elokhar and Meridas... though the end of their arcs weren't very satisfying they were adequate antagonists.

I am now scared for the fate of the Kholin brothers and hope that narrative has been completely reworked.

Also I realized how good Brandon has gotten with POVs. In the current SA, I don't need to know who's the POV character because I can tell by the language, the thought structure, the dialogue... it certainly didn't feel that way in the Prime version.

While on the topic of things Brandon has improved on: you can tell how much his prose has been elevated compared to this.

The lore was ok, but it didn't seem that deep. We barely got myths, histories, songs... This makes me value so much more the inclusion of death rattles, epigraphs, book excerpts, songs..etc in the current S.A.

Finally... Jasnah. I am so thankful for the Jasnah we have today rather than the one in this book. I feel like Prime Jasnah was not that smart to be honest. She was controlled, sure. But smart? I feel like the Jasnah we know would have been able to better piece together if Taln told the truth, or a version of it, even with spren out of the equation. Her extensive historical knowledge alone would have been enough to figure out that Taln knew a variety of facts very few people in the world would know... especially people she had never heard of. Also... don't recall ever having seen her reading a book and one of my favourite Jasnah traits is her being a bit of a bookworm. This Jasnah felt too stuck in being a non-believer and her smarts were more told than shown. I do ship her and Taln though, that was a very cute relationship. Low-key hoping for those two crazy kids to get the feels in the back 5.

I am excited to see everyone's theories based on extrapolations of this book. 

I almost feel like mine is so lame! No big Eureka moment.

I read all of the WoT in late 2016/early 2017 based on a friend's recommendation.  He warned me that Jordan had died and the last books were by a different author. When I got to them, I was very impressed with this Brandon fellow so I googled him.

Google told me about the Cosmere, I immediately knew I was in for the ride. I picked up Mistborn and the rest is (a not-so-secret) history.

11 hours ago, Karger said:

I am going to embrace my inner grandparent and ask if "sharkbut" is some kind of young people slang.  Also apparently (because I could not resist a google)

 

Hahahaha as far as my inner grandparent is aware -no. It is not a slang term though younglings, feel free to correct me.

I simply saw the close caption text while scrolling through youtube and my inner 5 year old who will forever giggle at such words got far too excited...

Died a little bit of laughter!

(P.s. if this is known or in the wrong forum, sorry and please let me know  )

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

 To me his current state seems linked to the Spiritual Realm,

I definitely agree that Hoid is closely tied to the spiritual realm, and probably has mastery over manipulating his own spirit web.

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

I am not waiting for a master plan from Hoid to reforge Adonalsium or change some rules. I expect to see him on a quest to keep the story moving. He is not trying to defeat or help Shards, but is an (not un-)witting agent of Fortune. A spren needs a sentient connection to be sentient in the Physical Realm. Maybe Hoid needs tell, participate in or learn stories to exist outside of the Spiritual Realm.

I think this is a lovely idea but don't necessarily think it's true. Hoid's line to Dalinar about seeing the world burn, and quite a few WoBs seem to indicate that Hoid does have certain selfish goals/motives of his own. I don't think at all it's defeating shards, reuniting Adonalsium or something as grand, but he's nevertheless planning something beyond merely participating in stories.

This looks like some kind of old school punk or rock poster and I'm here for it. 

2 hours ago, Quitecontrary said:

I saw you got your copy of Aether of Night. Happy reading. I'll leave you alone now. Harharhar

I did and already devouring it!

As for leaving me alone... the messages of a fellow Cosmere-obsessed whisky drinker are always welcome

6 minutes ago, Quitecontrary said:

Scenes are now running in my head with Emily's eye-rolling and head shaking, while reading Brandon's extensive descriptions. She writes the brand name of that milk he wanted. Of course she knows what it is. 

Of course she does.

And with a resigned sigh, she puts the milk in her cart and proceeds to the next page: Popcorn and the correct salt ratio (a novella)

3 minutes ago, Quitecontrary said:

You're assuming Brandon is in charge of it. You have no idea how many men I saw in the grocery store during quarantine taking pictures of mundane canned goods like peas, while talking on the phone with their partner (i suppose), and say "I cannot find that brand! This is all they have. Will this do?" Oh poor boys.

Seen this too!!  

I mean, he must have a contribution to the list when he wants something right?... and potentially being clueless of this sort of thing he writes a list for Emily explaining how the milk he wants is the one that his mom used that one time they all had a family breakfast... you know that snowy day when he had lost his glasses for a bit so they had to look everywhere... and the family was upset because they arrived late but to smooth things over his mom served a hot chocolate using that particular milk that cheered everyone up. I can also see him writing all of that just for himself to be fair.

21 hours ago, DuffMcGruff said:

 What's the point of IRL friends if they haven't read the Cosmere?

This. I felt this in my soul.

Hello to you from another newbie

25 minutes ago, R J said:

Sorry, didn't find anything on the extended dialogue but you should get vol 3, there's an extra scene there that wasn't in the prose

Hey, can I interest you in voting for your favourite characters?

 

That's ok now that I know of the extra scene getting the GN went up in my priority list.

Yes! I'll check out those threads

26 minutes ago, Quitecontrary said:

Someone should start a thread that asks, "what would Brandon's shopping lists contain?"

Knowing Brandon, they're probably short-story length at least. I sincerely hope they're saving them to at some point release the 15-tome leather-bound Retail Unbounded: Transactions of Earth. Bet Isaac's milk bottle illustrations will blow our minds.

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

By that logic everybody would be purely of Adonalsium, as the Shards were also part of Adonalsium. That makes the distinction moot. You are purely of Adonalsium if you contain the parts of Adonalsium in the original shares. That is no longer the case if you add only some of them in higher amounts.

I don't necessarily agree. At least how I see it, while the shards were all part of Adonalsium they are very distinct. Someone born in Nalthis would have Endowment's investiture in their spirit web, but not Honor's (for example). At least not to any signifcant degree.

Hoid was born in Yolen and was a magic user, so he would have Adonalsium's investiture. If he goes to Nalthis and buys some breaths, the investiture in his spirit web that had Endowment gets enhanced (more concentrated) but the rest are still there. I don't think investiture,  in the spiritual realm, overtakes or cancels the other but rather that the more you have the more spiritual power/juice you get.

3 minutes ago, Quitecontrary said:

Just post that you want it here. The admins will delete your post and include you in a PM with the copy of the book.

thanks!

3 minutes ago, R J said:

Just go here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/60219-aether-of-night-manuscript-requests/

and say that you want a copy

and thank you to you too!

It's very sweet of you both Made my post and now super excited to read even more Brandon. I swear, I would read that man's shopping lists...

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It used to be. Now at least he is a Mistborn. If he ever had pure Adonalsium in him, he did not consider that state of spirit web worth preserving.

I'm not seeing fully how that works? If he used to be pure Adonalsium and then became a Mistborn or a Radiant or a Sand Master, these investitures were part of Adonalsium anyway so he's adding parts of the same thing. I don't really see how being a Mistborn makes him less of Adonalsium, just that maybe that investiture is little more concentrated.

Kind of like a puzzle: if he collects all the shards separates investitures (which he seems to be doing) it would be Adonalsium's, or close to it.

20 minutes ago, R J said:

Oh hey, does that mean you've read/are reading the Aether of Night?

I have not! I know that I can request it here but still have to ask the google gods how to go about it. I'd appreciate any help!

21 minutes ago, R J said:

Well said, I consider Part 3 of the GN better than its prose counterpart for this conversation.

That's very interesting. Hope to get to it one day, though I find it rather difficult to get into graphic novels tbh. Is there maybe somewhere I can find a comparison of them to understand better the differences?

1 minute ago, R J said:

Dilaf I get, why Gevalden though? 

I am not sure if I should tag spoilers, so will do so just to be safe FYI I've only read the prose version

21 minutes ago, R J said:

Who's your least favourite character, @Dalinar'sCroissant?

Hmmmm hard one.

The ones I "hate" (like Sadeas) are ones whose narrative purpose is to be hated, so I like them for their role fullfillment

I think for this one I'd have to go either with Gevin or Dilaf.

5 minutes ago, AonEne said:

Any favorite bits of cosmere trivia?

I'm having a moment similar to when someone asks you "what is your favourite movie?" and you somehow manage to forget every single movie you've ever seen. Thanks, Brain. Cue Shallan-style blush. 

Overall I really like anything that is deep lore, magical mechanisms, Shards or unknown history. One that springs to mind is the one about Patji or the one about the mechanisms of the magic Silence Divine. 

I think one of the reasons I like the Cosmere so much is that I'm a lore person through and through and piecing together all these elements to make sense of the overarching story is so tantalising.

Just now, AonEne said:

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant the website where Brandon’s WOBs are stored, not Arcanum Unbounded. 

Ohhh! Yes, I have... to an extent.

 I can't say I have done a thorough job of it (there's so many!). Overall, I'm familiar with the "recent ones" (Oathbringer onwards) and the "famous ones" (the ones often brought up in reddit/forums/shardcast/videos).