Nellac

14 minutes ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

With people like this, no wonder these forums seem dead lately. 

I think the problem is that different people have different ideas of what they want when they put out a theory. Personally, I like when other people point out the flaws in my theories. It leads me to either find more evidence and refine the theory, or to start over and come up with a new theory. I enjoy the back and forth with people as we explain and debate our ideas of what's going on in the cosmere. 

I think there was a post a while back about a tag that you can add onto your post to let people know if you want to debate your theory or if you just want to throw it out there for everyone to see.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but does that mean you have to accept a governemt or government at all? Tribes have laws without governments. You could likely swear to the Law of Manu or the Albanian Kanun. It is a Western positivist view that law needs to originate from legislation. A divine revelation or ancient tribal customs would work for a Skybreaker, too. In fact, the law being inalterable may be an added attraction. Such a tribal customary law may explicitely forbid the formation of a government.

In fact their crusade could then be to slaughter the modernists who argue for the formation of a government.

I totally agree with you here. A Skybreaker very well could swear to a set of tribal customs or a religion. My point was that they couldn't swear to pure anarchy. They could even swear to something that would require them to tear down the current government and laws, in order to build up something else. The thing is that they need something to follow and anarchy wouldn't supply that. 

On 9/4/2020 at 1:49 PM, I Am A Fish said:

I disagree about the value of human life being the main theme, though it certainly is one.

I'd say the main theme of SA is responsibility. Kaladin, and Dalinar's entire arcs revolve around it, and Shallan's is kinda related. One of the reasons Moash is such a good villain is he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. On the other hand Kaladin takes WAY too much responsibility. Dalinar's big moment in Oathbringer is him accepting responsibility for his past misdeeds. And IN WORLD it is confirmed to be a main theme.*

Another major theme is forgiveness, or redemption.

But I like keeping posts short so...

People say something insightful about SA redemption below. || 

                                                                                                 V

*Kaladin first meets Hoid, or the Wandersail

I think you're getting really close here. I would say that the biggest theme is being good not despite your flaws/mistakes, but because of them. The entire series focuses on people and how they work through incredibly difficult situations and grow to be better than they were before.

50 minutes ago, Algrokoz said:

I'm just finishing reading the third book again, and I think the girl who looked up, while possibly referencing a specific person, is also a direct reference to humans leaving shinovar for the first time. The wall is the mountains, and the light is the stormlight, and the darkness is the deliberate loss of knowledge about investiture that I'm assuming happened when humans settled on roshar. Someone crossed the mountains and witnessed storm light and brought it back to shinovar. I think that might also be why the shin have specific prohibitions against stepping on stone, because it would make it impossible to leave shinovar without doing so.

This is one of the best theories on the subject I've heard so far.

On 2/15/2021 at 7:16 PM, KSub said:

What is your point?

The true spren turned into deadeyes but their blades are still there. If the plate was made of spren what happened to them?

And if the deadeyes can be revived what will happen to the plate?

Deadeyes are only seen in shadesmar when they, as a blade, are dismissed. Whenever they are summoned, they disappear out of shadesmar. Since current shardplate can't be dismissed the spren, or what's left of them, are trapped in the physical realm.

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

No votes for Bondsmith or Dustbringer yet, wow.

I think we just don't know enough about Dustbringers yet. I'm not sure why there are no Bondsmiths though

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well it would definitely work with a 5th ideal one according to you right

 Becoming the law and all that

Possibly, but that doesn't matter much because they have to swear the other oaths first. Journey before destination, right?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

A Skybreaker can establish a set of rules like so

not to wear blue

not to eat fruit

not to eat soup with a fork.

etc

and swear to follow those rules.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Also Nale is not a reliable source, the modern Skybreakers would Horrify the Skybreakers of the past.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think skybreaker oaths that don't follow something external would work.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A personal code can be held to, in spite of, or even because of being opposed to all government.

I'm not sure why you are struggling with this.

I think we have different understandings of Skybreakers. A Skybreaker isn't just following their personal code, they're following an external code. Whether that be a person, a specific set of rules, the law, or a certain religion. In all situations what a Skybreaker swears to in there third Ideal is something greater than themselves. The whole idea is that they know their own moral code is insufficient or corrupt so they rely on an external one.

Anarchy: 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

A moral code is quite easily followed, you missunderstand Anarchy if you believe that any rules are to be destroyed. If someone says I refuse to drink alchohol, that is a rule they have set for themselves, that in no way shape or form contradicts anarchy.

Anarchy: a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.  

If there is a lack of, or a lack of recognition of, authority then there are no rules. A Skybreaker's entire third ideal is based upon swearing to something else as a higher authority than them.

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That was what I was going for in my last line

Im sure you could have a skybreaker anarchist they only need someone who is also of the same thoughts as them to follow as an Ideal

If their moral code is different from yours then that doesn’t make his wrong in his eyes

Again it’s perception 

If he thinks murdering and stealing is the most just thing and someone agrees to him then that fits the Ideals

There's a difference between being an anarchist and swearing to follow an Anarchist. By swearing to follow someone you are allowing them to be your authority. That goes against the very nature of anarchy.

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It’s Perception

If the skybreaker believes something is Just it fits the Ideal

They follow an Ideal but it doesn’t have a government 

 

For the second ideal, you are correct, but you're ignoring the third ideal. The third ideal requires a Skybreaker to pick some sort of code of ethics to follow. I can't see anyone who says we need an external code of ethics being an anarchist. In my understanding, an anarchist would have a problem with any rules or any codes of ethics. They would see this as limiting and restrictive. You can't have someone who's goal is to destroy all rules and laws who also devotes their life to following a set of rules or moral code.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I belive you have a far too narrow view of what Skybreakers are.

I think you have too wide of one. 

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well depends on your definition of justice.

If you view all government as corrupt and irreparable, what do you do?

You don't become a Skybreaker.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I will prevent all governmmental abuse

^ easy stand in for third ideal

I will destroy all governments

^CRUSADE!

Just because it can have a crusade doesn't mean it matches the order's ideals and attitudes. Let's not forget that you have to attract a spren to become a radiant. I don't see spren who usually love all things to do with laws, rules, and ethical codes choosing an anarchist to bond. They simply wouldn't have the right mindset. 

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Anarchist skybreaker.

I'm not sure you could have an anarchist Skybreaker, they seemed too focused on maintaining some sort of order or code. You could have an extreme libertarian Skybreaker though. Something like "I will allow people to do as they like, so long as it doesn't hurt others." Although, at that point you're getting really close to Willshaper territory.

Willshaper politician that thinks the most freedom can be found through good legal systems

Know Our World's Tragedy

A reflection on how they lost the war against Odium. It would be written by Jasnah to warn other world's of Odium's power and give advice on how to defeat him. 

This would of course be reliant on them losing the war in book 5

2 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

I totally agree that being better than who you were before is an important way to live. Having trained in karate for years, 'fall down seven times, stand up eight' is ingrained into me (and I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world can improve on who they are). But at the same time, it is entirely possible to strive for self improvement without acknowledging publicly what you are trying to be better than. I feel like it can be much harder to admit that you have done wrong than to swear not to do it again.

Dalinar could have regained his memories and worked to be a better man than the Blackthorn, but that isn't all he did. He wrote a book detailing everything he had done, for everyone to read and judge. 

For a real world example, say you make a mistake at work. Management put out a memo saying that this happened and why it was not the correct way to do things, but they are not sure who it is. You could easily say to yourself 'well I dodged a bullet there, I'll make sure not to do that again'. But you can (and arguably should) own up to the fact that you were the one to make the mistake and offer your services to fix it.

Ideally, the entirety of Dalinar's Third Ideal would be the baseline, but I was just a little disappointed that it went with the option that is potentially easier. When I think of emulating a Bondsmith, I think of both parts, but my thoughts go first to taking responsibility for my actions.

I think you need to look at what Dalinar struggles with on a personal level. The history of the Blackthorn is fairly common knowledge in Alethkar, and even all over Roshar. He doesn't need to admit it to anyone because most people already know. At the time he says the third ideal he isn't struggling with doing the right thing, he's struggling with believing that he is and can continue to be a good man. I get what you're saying, and I agree that in general that is a better sounding ideal, but for Dalinar it is less important. It was more important for him to personally accept his shortcomings than to do so publicly. It also shows that he is more worried about his own morality than other people's perceptions of that morality.

24 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Oathbringer, Interlude 13

However, I'm sure you are correct that the easy-to-get gemhearts of "normal-sized" animals are fairly small.  That's why they put currency gemstones in glass spheres, right?

Ahh, thanks for the quote. I listen to the books on audio so finding a specific passage is a pain.

Yeah, I think the ones in currency are pretty small. I think it's noted that gemstones that are cracked by fabriels or soulcasters are cut into smaller pieces to be used in spheres. You can fit three gemstones on the back of the hand with a soulcaster, so I'd guess that makes them like grape-ish sized. If those are broken down, the ones in spheres are probably closer to the size found on most real world rings. 

10 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

 

Honor's Drop is described as being the size of a human head, so considerably larger than a softball.  And that's a CUT gemstone - fashioned from one even larger.  I picture the chasmfiend gemhearts being at least as large as basketballs.  It is somewhat disappointing that we've never seen or heard much about how they are cut.

 

Yeah, but I thought that Honor's drop was noted as being much, much bigger than most other gemstones.

Honestly, I'd rather this not happen. I want Kaladin to just be a normal man who faced incredible challenges and came out on top. I don't want there to be anything supernatural about him

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I also wonder where all the gems go.  If more are being created every day by many different kinds of fauna after a few thousand years they should litter the ground.  Perhaps they are washed to the sea.  I like to imagine vast greatshells proweling depths amongst unfathomable numbers of gemstones.  

I mean, let's consider the size. The one's that come from chasmfiends are supposed to be huge and how big are they? I think they're like the size of a softball, but someone can correct me. If we then compare the size of chasmfiends to the size of most creatures on roshar their gemhearts must be tiny. Most are probably no bigger than a grain of sand.

5 hours ago, I Just Shard Myself! said:

One could quite easily point to Kaladin's actions as taking on the sins and sorrows of others upon himself....allegorically. Dalinar explicitly stated in the RoW when asking Jasnah to write the subtext of his book, that he was creating a new religion with his writings. If that isn't an analog of old Joe Smith, I am not sure what a better analog could be. But that's my opinion. You can, of course, disagree. As I said previously, it's all subjective. I don't think there is any reasonable way to suggest that the Cosmere isn't a symbolic representation (aka allegory) of LDS beliefs. As I noted above, "I could be wrong on some of the parallel characters" and, as the books unfold, no doubt I will be...as will many others. However, that doesn't change the relatively self-evident fact that the LDS theology I highlighted is the basis for the Cosmere.

As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be...He was once a man like us...God himself was once as we are now,...God is a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow...God is a man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same....we can "Find out the generation where Gods began to be"...."God: Creator And Ruler Of Many Worlds"..."and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves"...

I am very glad you have your viewpoint about this exciting work of fiction. It's a very fun read. With regard to the comparisons I have made, I would advise one who is a practicing member of LDS to drop the defenses a little when I bring up these doctrines. I have noticed that when I discuss these with my Mormon friends, half of them minimize them away to ancillary doctrine and the other half claim they aren't there. It would seem these are doctrine that make (at least the many LDS friends I have) many uncomfortable to address. But it's your religion and I hope you don't get defensive about it. If BS decided to do an allegory of your religion here (which I assess he did), there's no reason to try and walk away from it being that. These are your beliefs. It's alright to believe something different than others. 

While I don't hold with LDS theology, I will readily admit that it makes a REMARKABLE and quite enjoyable setting for this particular fictional world. 

I think I may have been unclear before. I don't think anything you've said is doctrinally false. We absolutely believe that God was once like us and that we can become like unto him. I'm nnot trying to minimize this point r claim it isn't there. It actually is a key principle. The point of this life is to learn how to be righteous so that we can inherit all that our Father has in the eternities. I guess there are two reasons why I'm disagreeing with you. First becoming a god isn't unique to our religion. I've read several stories that were highly influenced by Asian culture where they were all about progression and one day ascending  from the world the person was on. We know Sanderson has been influenced a lot by asian culture so he might have brought it from there. The times we see someone become a shard are much closer to the ascensions from these books and their powers are much more similar. The second is that I don't like when people declare what a writer was trying to do. I know reading is up to interpretation and I agree with that when you're looking at smaller things in a book. For example "Life before Death" and Hoid's stories can be interpreted differently by everyone. It's very different though to say that an Author's entire series of books is something that he says it isn't. I refer you back to my last post on Sanderson talking about the rarity of his religion being purposefully put into the books.

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't some influence in the books. I just think calling it an allegory is going too far. The definition of allegory is "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one." I don't think the cosmere is meant to be interpreted to give some big hidden meaning. It's simply a good, hopeful story written by a man whose beliefs are so ingrained that they slipped through into the story.

15 minutes ago, I Just Shard Myself! said:

Jesus wasn’t a four legged feline. It doesn’t change the fact that Azlan was an allegory of Christ. Allegorical fiction isn’t necessarily a collection of precise analogs. Let’s say Kaladin ascends to become Honor later...would that fit the requirements of a Christ figure? 
 

It’s all subjective, of course, but the Cosmere is structured on the premises present in Mormon theology where men can become gods, with their very own planets, presumably following the path of the existing God and his Son Christ. 

Just ascending to honor would not fit the requirements of a Christ figure. The epitome of who Christ is can be found in His atonement. Through His atonement he took the sins and sorrows of all people upon himself. For someone in a story to represent Christ they have to take someone else's debts and pain upon themselves. Aslan does this in Narnia. I might also add that those books were openly meant to be allegorical.

In the end the only person who could say whether or not it's allegorical is Sanderson. I refer you back to the quote in the past @Weltall made. Sanderson clearly states that it might have a subconscious affect on his writing, which I totally see, but that he rarely does it intentionally. I couldn't see him saying he does it rarely if the main character from his biggest series is supposed to represent Jesus or if his biggest project is done big allegory.

46 minutes ago, I Just Shard Myself! said:

Yes. The Cosmere is based upon the Book of Mormon. It’s absolutely allegorical. I could be wrong on some of the parallel characters but, the verses at the bottom ARE the Cosmere. 

Read Kaladin as a (sort of) version of Christ where to be that in the Cosmere, he is also a hidden Dawn Shard. Bear in mind, this would be a Mormon version of Christ in a ‘Cosmere’ where individuals ascend to godhood of their own planets...a Mormon belief. They also believe Christ and Satan were brothers (equals?) which fits the idea of fallen gods like Odium. You can also probably read Dalinar as a version of Joseph Smith. 
 

Christ: “Son of Man” and “Son of God”;  Completely Indwelt with the Holy Spirit; In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God; rejected by men as dangerous, but delivered salvation as spiritual champion against evil

Kaladin/Dawnshard: “Son of Tanavast”; Completely invested with the Dawnshard; the Dawnshard is the ‘word’ or command of a God; rejected (enslaved) by men as dangerous (shash) but delivered a more temporal salvation as champion against evil;

Here are a few snippets from LDS beliefs to bolster the point:

 

"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

 

“He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

 

As we stretch our imaginations to absorb the limitlessness of the creations of God we turn to a favorite song: If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward with that same speed to fly, D'ye think that you could ever, through all eternity, Find out the generation where Gods began to be? Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend? Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end? Methinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space,'" Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place. The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound; Improvement and progression have one eternal round. There is no end to matter; there is no end to space; There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.250, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

 

"God: Creator And Ruler Of Many Worlds. -- While it is true that evolutionists may be divided between theistic and atheistic groups, yet most of those professing belief in God consider him to be an indefinable force, essence, or power of an incomprehensible nature. According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (D. & C. 130:22- 23; Moses 6:51, 57; Abra. 3:22-24; Jos. Smith 2:16-19.)"

 "I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth. for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. ... "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret....Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me." (LDS President Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

I don't see the comparisons between Joseph Smith and Dalinar. Other than seeing visions they have nothing in common. Dalinar is very old while Joseph was very young when he saw the visions. Dalinar was a war-mongering nobleman while Joseph was a simple farm boy. 

I honestly don't understand the comparison between Christ and Kaladin you are trying to draw.

Everything you have cited are examples of are our belief that we can become like our Heavenly Father one day. I don't see any comparison between this and the cosmere. We believe that everybody who acts righteously can become like unto God. In the cosmere there are a very limited number of shards and only certain people with certain attributes can carry them. This seems too exclusive to be symbolic. There may have been a slight influence, but nothing more.

3 hours ago, Scarletfox said:

Hello, friends!

To make a long story short, I found myself in a book club with my sister and two of her phd friends talking about very complex literary devices and foils created by Mr. Sanderson (not to mention I was way out of my league) and then somehow it turned to how Stormlight is a Christian allegory and stuff... at which point the gears turning in my brain came to a halt and I asked, "Um, hold up, what?" Anyways, my sister who is a stereotypical brainy and nerdy english professor said, "oh yeah you didn't know? I thought it was obvious." Anyways, I don't know all of the points she has to support her theory, but some she mentioned off the top of her head were:

1. 'It was obvious that' the parshendi were the natives of Roshar because they all had hebraic names (yes, she figured this out in WoK). This is a parallel to the Jews being here on America before we came along

2. Dalinar's whole pyromaniac escapade was a parallel to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, because someone asked the person (I forget who) who lead that if they should go ask Joseph Smith (I think), and that person said no, Smith would be ok with it. Just like one of Dalinar's commanders asked if they should ask Gavilar, and he said no. (I'm positive my details on this are fuzzy, I'm literally just repeating what I remember)

I'm sure there's more to it than just those two, because I know my sister and she would likely have written a thesis sized paper on any theory of hers, but these were the two she voiced as a side note to our book club. Anyhow, I just wondered what people's thoughts were about this. Does anyone else have any ideas to support or disprove this theory? I don't have a strong opinion about it, but I thought it was a fascinating idea and thought I'd run it past y'all.

So I will say that as a member of that church I didn't pick up on any of these things. That being said I'll do my best to explain my thoughts.

On the first point, there are some parallels. For example, the Lamanites and Nephites (descendents of the jews who came over) were at one point very righteous people who later fell away and became wicked. This could be representative of how the Singers had a bond with honor and the spren, but then that broke. This doesn't seem quite right though. In ancient days the people turned away from God, while in Stormlight it seems to suggest that honor and the spren turned away from the Singers. Also if we were making a direct comparison the Parshendi would seem to symbolize a group that stayed righteous. In the end, all of the Nephites and Lamanites became wicked and it destroyed their civilization. Another note is that in Stormlight the Singers turn to Odium after humans come from Braize. The Nephites and Lamanites turned away from God long before any European settler made it to the Americas. In the end I don't think that this is supposed to be symbolic of the Nephites and Lamanites already being in the Americas.

I don't know a ton about the specifics on the Mountain Meadow Massacre, so I'm not going to touch on the second point

A couple notes to end this post. First, I am not trying to convert anyone. I am simply stating my beliefs and how I think they relate to Stormlight. Second, I don't want this to turn into some big religious/moral debate. Third, I don't have a perfect understanding of all the teachings of my church and I definately am not perfect at explaining what I do understand.

18 hours ago, MGershone said:

The story of Nomon and the Natanatan queen seems like the kind of ancient origin myth you get in Greek or Norse mythology, but could actually be based on some weird thing with an early Natanatan queen and a magical moon related thingy - I can't think what exactly

Could be something with the queen and a worldhopper or someone from Braize before the full evacuation.