Nnatel

I must say I very much like your take on at least three levels: I love this quote about Odium, it pretty much sums up my interpretation of this Shard since I read that; I have been trying to figure out more emotional (more or less, for lack of a better word I can currently think of) Shards - I've been trying to get a full quadrant of Shard connected to feelings, but I am not getting into that here; and lastly, my head hurts from thinking about trying to sort the existing Shards so this is a very nice topic that is not so frustrating. (Also, all the talk of the Shards has finally motivated me to come back on the forums and even write something so that's nice, too.)

Anyway, being done with this not really necessary beginning.

I find your take really interesting as I have never considered the possibility that Odium is actually better at feeling human emotions that any other Shard. I believed it always to be a thing Rayse says not necessarily even believing that himself. Maybe because I just assumed there are other Shards representing emotions. This may come from an really old WoB that I had in the back of my head:

Quote

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Aona equal Love or Compassion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Skai equal Devotion or Order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona].

Vericon 2011 (March 19, 2011)

If this interpretation is still valid - one of the Shards you suggested already exists. (But honestly I am wondering if this is not too old to base a theory on because a lot of Brandon's interpretations could have changed since 2011). But anyway Devotion, and also Whimsy, are really hard to talk about without mentioning emotions.

I will focus on this part of your theory because this feels the most correct, if I can say so.

4 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

3: Odium is all emotion that Adonalsium could feel and just got the way it is after the Shattering. Maybe "God's Divine Passions/Emotions" is up to interpretation the way Ruin could be slow decay or active Catastrophes, and it got interpreted into Odium. Then again, it sounds like Odium went on his killing spree pretty quickly after the Shattering, so it's not like he started out loving and jolly and became bitter and hateful with lots of time.

There is also one thing I would like to add to this point:
I can see a world where the actual Shard is all emotions Adonalsium had but the Odium thing happened because of Rayse. There is a mention in one of the letters, I think, that he wasn't a pleasant men, to put it nicely, as I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have a book to actually check it. I am not sure if I actually like it, I think I would prefer them to get split up between different Shards, at least that sound more likely to happen IMO.

But on the other hand there is also a quote from RoW:

Quote

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. [RoW 113]

This lists noticeably more emotions that hatred. But it does not mention love, which would go quite well with this attribute (and I mean it as in 'godly' attribute of Adonalsium) being a part of Devotion's Intent. It also leaves me wondering which other emotions are lacking.
Sadness is definitely one of them. I could see it being part of Mercy, in a way. Same with compassion.
Happiness is one of the ones I would consider important but I don't have a good suggestion for a Shard it could be a part of.
Curiosity might be another, this one fits Whimsy for me.
Actually, the same might be true for something like boredom. This feels like a basic that is needed to be whimsical.
Is determination even an emotion? I am not sure but it definitely is Ambition.
I am trying to figure out more emotions that could be listed and I am getting stuck. So I am going to end the list here.

So anyway, I guess I came to a conclusion that Odium is the only Shard we currently know that is purely made from Adonalsium's emotions but there are some emotional attributes that can be easily ascribed to Shards we already know and that definitely are not part of Odium. That is not necessarily what I wanted to write but at some point I remembered the RoW quote and it happened. I like it a lot actually. Does somebody agree? Or maybe you can add more emotions or come up with a Shard that goes well with happiness?

PS. I can't believe this actually got me to search for this chapter of RoW. I hate it as because it makes me terrified for future books.

If it was already raised in this topic than I'm sorry, I've been reading it in parts and don't really remember what you've discussed already. But here go my thoughts on both Azure's sword and Nightblood. Per this WoB (that has been already quoted) 

Quote

Questioner

One question I've been thinking about a lot, and that is the black bladed sword. Is there just one sword, or is there one for each world, that [works with?] different...like Shard powers, or is it just one sword that can work with all?

 

Brandon Sanderson

[Nightblood] is something special. A long time ago, some people from the Warbreaker world came to Roshar, saw Shardblades, thought, "We can do this," went home and tried to make one. And that is Nightblood. And it went horribly horribly wrong. And so they didn't make any more, except now, Azure's sword is somewhat related. But that is the origin of Nightblood. Trying to make a Shardblade out of a different magic system.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10477

we know, that creation of Nightblood didn't go as it should. And from the Warbreaker Annotations (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7357) we know that Yesteel has necessary knowledge on creating a Type Four entity, so for me it is quite justified to make assumptions that it was either him or Vasher who created Azure's sword. Partly it's even a writing reason, I guess - we already have two characters that are able to do this, so why introduce another one? 

I believe all of the differences between those two weapons come from the unusual thing that happened during Nightblood's creation, and what I mean is that Shashara and Vasher didn't have full control over the process. Here are two WoBs, spoilered for clarity and length, from which I took the idea. 

I suppose you can say I'm streching this too far from those, but I feel like the fact that at least two Shards were involved more that usually indicates something. Even if it wasn't Ruin's concius intervention, because I'm not really sure it was, this still can be valid if the reason behind Ruin's Investiture is just the Nightblood's command. 

6 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

Knights of Worlds. Kingdom of Warriors. King of Ways.

King of Ways made me laugh way too much.
But both Knights of Worlds and Kingdom of Warriors are awesome. And actually the latter one sounds totally like something concerning Shin, they don't have almost all the Honorblades for nothing. Yes, I remember they don't value warriors as important, if you want to focus on this part, this can be something they say about the Alethkar, obviously in a negative way.

@Ookla the Toasted this sounds nice as well, maybe a little change to get Knight of the Winds

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

How would a Kandra interact with Dakhor bones? or the bones of a Skeletal of a Bloodsealer if they tried to swallow it while it was still under a Dzhamarian's control?

Quote

Questioner

If a kandra where to get the bones of a Dakhor monk, would they get the Dakhor monk's abilities?

 

Brandon Sanderson

If a kandra got a hold of the bones of a Dahkor monk, yeah, would they get the abilities… It would take more than just the bones, but that would be a big part of it.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e152

I guess, as it generally seems to be a thing with Selish magic - a kandra would also need a Connection to Fjorden. But after getting this to work (and it's not impossible) they should gain the abilities those bones granted. This one is quite simple. 

But interacting with a Skeletal is probably more difficult, as the they run on Investiture and that would make things much complicated, I guess. 

Actually, I believe a similar case would occur with Lifeless, as they also have some internal Investiture that would make any interference much more difficult or at least complicated. I'm not sure whether Kalad's Phantoms work exactly the same as Lifeless, though I guess they work on the same base so it shouldn't be relevantly different. 

Another WoB that might be relevant (sorry for the second quote box, I'm on the mobile so there is no way to delete it).

Quote

Bluebar

How does [Bloodsealing] actually work with [the skeletals]? Does it trap something inside the bones like a Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it works very similar to making Lifeless. Slight variations, but you are basically animating the bones by using Investiture that doesn't actually belong to them and tricking them into thinking that it does for a little bit of time and making it think it's alive again. And the fact that it's bones is really important for that, for Bloodsealing. But it's working in a similar way. The distinction is that with Lifeless you are actually using part of their own soul, right? And with Bloodsealing you're not.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Quote

 

I love the symmetry option, it fits whole SA so well. And I kind of like 'white' standing for 'w' as it will be Szeth's. And white was rather a big theme for him. 

Actually, if he uses in-world logic to create the title, there is a chance one of the letters can be changed to 'h'. At least the Alethi would still consider it symmetrical. 

On 28.11.2019 at 7:11 PM, SirWolfe said:

I think it could probably eat a shard given enough time, and if the Shard doesn't try to stop it. 

Well, I'm not sure about this. If it was to be a lot of time, than maybe, but I still don't find it likely.
 

Quote

Phantine

What does Nightblood do if he gets fully drawn and runs out of breath and people to eat?

Does he start vaporizing the ground and start boring a hole to the center of the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he won't. (Good question though.) I'm not sure I want to get into the mechanics of why not, yet. It WAS one of the first things we talked about with Nightblood, though.

Phantine

Not to go into mechanics, then, does Nightblood just 'go to sleep' when his job's done?

That would explain how Vasher is confident he'll be able to get Nightblood back, even if the person he tosses Nightblood to ends up fully drawing the blade.

Brandon Sanderson

He doesn't sleep, but if he draws in enough, he'll start to sound drunk or drowsy (depending on your interpretation.)

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 7, 2017)

I see it's like it'd eat some of the Shard's Investiture than stop and after some time it'd wake up and start eating again. Or at least I feel this is what would happen.

12 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

@Nnatel what if there was a third shard ?

Suppose a shard wanted to grow stronger and decided to consume dead shards . It would be unsuccessful on Sel cause odium did a good job sequestering the dor.

Let's just say I don't find this likely and leave this, I feel like it's only a matter of opinion. 

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

From WoB:

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

I would consider the magic system on the First of the Sun to be a non Shard-based as well. This WoB suggest a strong similarity between Threnody and Fots. 

Quote

Questioner

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Questioner

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Questioner

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Questioner

So there is inherent Investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

And even if there was Investiture between the battle between Shards, I don't feel like back then Threnody would be invested enough to create a CS. I believe that only after Ambition being wounded what resulted in bigger amount of Investiture (with a chance of odious Investiture being there as well, at least that's what I want to believe in). 

9 hours ago, The traveller said:

Well we don’t know what really happened here. How did they trap him? I think they somehow got him to form some pact with them resulting with him investing in the Rosharan system.

I always felt that after being imprisoned he he decided to Invest because that was the only available option to fight them. 

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If we have the information on Ambitions wounds causing power to reach Threnody, why nothing for Odium? 

There is only one RAFO on similarity between Shades and the Fused (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11288) but per this WoB I suppose we can assume there is another Shard's investiture being in play on Threnody

Quote

Steeldancer

On Threnody, the Shades, their eyes turn red when they get really mad. Is that the same thing as with the Voidbringers and all the other ones?

Brandon Sanderson

I have a subtheme in the Cosmere of the redness and it's supposed to be intentional.

Steeldancer

So it is the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the same theme. But I do not mean to imply that it's the same Shard.

Steeldancer

But it's the same effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I'm doing it intentionally. Red eyes specifically are meant to mean something but I use it a few other ways [the same way?].

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

But I find it really unlikely there would be a third Shard on Threnody at some point. So I guess this time red means Odium again. 

Actually, somebody may once ask Brandon if Svrakiss have red eyes. Although it's probably a RAFO as all about them. 

It's quite hard to pick one but I have a list of three that I find more likely than the rest. 

1) Kalak - it totally makes sense for me that the Willshaper Herald dies in a Willshaper book. And we have already seen some of him, even if it was only prologues. He is a number one on my list.

2) Chana - I find her less likely just beacuse we haven't seen her yet. But if she is introduced at the very beginning, I definitely see her dying. There is another reason as well, but I'll get to it while talking about Ash.

3) Ash - so, we know she is a flashback character but that doesn't mean she has to survive (but to make her flashbacks interesting it'd be better to see more of her. I want Heralds for flashback characters, so I hope it won't end up the way it did with Eshonai). And mostly because of this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11374) it looks like she will end up as a Dustbringer - so actually Chana being dead before her makes sense. OTOH, I think we will see a lot of parallels in the SA so after death of Jezrien - leaving Kaladin's order without a patron - I feel like a patron of Lightweavers being next just fits in there. 

On 23/05/2019 at 11:59 PM, Oltux72 said:

That makes sense, but we have no proof shades are the same everywhere. Shades with some intelligence retained would be terrible.

There is this WoB 

Quote

Questioner

If Kelsier's [Cognitive Shadow] or a seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is the same thing. Now, you can see that there-- the people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of Shard means that their Cognitive Shadows react differently.

[...]

In fact, the Cognitive Shadow is also the same thing as the ghost you saw in Mistborn, that was the spirit of Leras is the same thing too.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

and though the first part of it is contradicted by this https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7444 (he says they wouldn't change) but I guess the bolded part can mean that they are less self aware because the Shard isn't there. At least I understand it this way.

On 09/11/2019 at 5:37 AM, The traveller said:

It is just an idea and I might be wrong but I thought I will mention it still. 

There are wobs that day that odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has in Rosharan system. So, I find it a very big coincidence that we have shades in threnody which is actually people who die and can not pass on. They seem very odious to me. And we have fused on Roshar who are again people he gave the power to not pass on.

so, I agree with OP that it indeed is a failed experiment but not by ambition but by odium, an experiment that he greatly improved upon in Roshar with fused. 

I partly agree, but only partly. I guess shades could've been created by Ambition (or at least with her Investiture) though I feel like some of Odium's Investiture might have stayed in the system. Actually I have this theory where shades are created by dying Ambition on purpose but I still have to think it through, so let's leave this and move more to what you said. I believe that shades can stay around because as a result of the battle between Ambition and Odium Threnody is heavily invested. And Investiture is what you need to get a CS. There is still one think that doesn't really work if I'd stop here. Enraged shades have green eyes but when it comes to spilling blood, they become red. And we well know what red often means as Investiture is concerned. So I like to think that not only Ambition was wounded but maybe Odium too, so there is some of his Investiture on Threnody taking control over the most angry shades (so to say it, I couldn't find better words).

14 minutes ago, Minimanmax1 said:

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

He really doesnt though, he is nearly always dressed in black with white hair.  There's even a WOB about how White Hair + Storytelling will almost always mean Hoid, even in broadsheets.  

Just want to point out that I am almost 100% certain that on Roshar and as Wit, Hoid has had black hair as his disguise.

Yeah, that's definitely true, so at least on Roshar he broke the pattern. Though I guess the way he looks is more of Brandon's way of telling us "look this is Hoid" than Hoid actually looking always the same. Just a storytelling reason. 

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

If he'd remained a random storyteller or beggar that gave a word or three at the right moment (like so many of his appearances) he could far more easily fly under the Radar.  But becoming The King's Wit is basically the opposite of that. 

I can far more easily buy that Odium knows he is there and involved, but Wit's "Where he Needs to Be" ability also provides a spidey-sense for when Odium's agents are closing in and he's been repeatedly and perpetually avoiding them.  Especially given the evidence that it's another Fortune/Spiritual-realm like Atium, it would make a lot of sense that it would make him very hard to pin down even with shardic Future-sight.  

Sometimes you are best hidden in plain sight - I wouldn't be surprised if Odium doesn't expect Hoid to get involved that much with important people. What is more, either his messing with Fortune allows him to avoid any unwanted problems or just using Fortune messes with Futuresight so much that Odium is unable to locate him. 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think Odium knows, or at least suspects, that Hoid is on Roshar, and is up to something. And yeah, I think that if Ash recognizes Hoids drawings, Nale should recognize Hoid on sight (then again, Hoid is good at disguises, so who knows). 

I definitely agree that Odium is aware of Hoid's presence. But with Hoid, I guess, many people know who he is but it might get really hard to recognise him - just every time you see him he looks different. So although knowing that these were his drawings is not hard, I think it would be quite hard for anyone to realise it is him, even talking face to face. 

I don't think this is about Cognitive Shadows but I can agree that almost every Shard has some sort of agents. And on Scadrial I would count Kandra as such, though I don't know if threre was anything like that while Ruin and Preservation were still around. But for Harmony they definitely act as such.

And I'm not sure if I would count Elantrians or Shades to be something like that as 'their' Shards are dead. Though it would be very interesting if some splintered  Shards left some sort of agents behind as they expected Odium to come after them. I really like the idea but does it make any sense? 

It took me quite a long time to find a better way of explaining what I meant but here it goes. @Karger and @Honorless as you were the ones who commented. It can still make no sense and the longer I think about it the more unlikely it gets but I still want to try putting it differently. 

Well, "hole" wasn't probably the best word for what I meant, I just tried imagining something different to all things we have seen before. And, I imagine CR with a certain density of Investiture (I am not taking into consideration any sentient beings, just the core 'landscape' of this realm). While we have seen places accumulating Investiture - Perpependicularities - the opposite is quite hard to imagine, I know. And while distances between planets or star systems are shortened - it's like a standard amount of Investiture in a place in CR is the same but the equivalent in PR is bigger. And here we go to what I was trying to say earlier. What would happen if there would exist a place in CR where this density would be smaller than usually? I might be completely wrong but I just got this feeling that anything unusal enough should exist in other realms as well (or at least sth unusual in CR has to exist in SR but if the cause was in PR than it would exist in all three).
But I guess Nalthians wouldn't spot this thing unless it moves and the planet goes through it once a year (I just realized that it can be very important to know whether it moves or not, but I'm drifting away from my idea).

thanks, @Karger!
I knew it had to be somewhere 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Is the CR anomaly closest to.

A. A death star

B. A battery

C. An old science experiment.

D. A corpse

E. A fortess

F. Some spare Investature

G. A secret planet

Of H. Some giant spren that Endowment keeps around as a pet

Well, the phrasing 'spare Investiture' made me thinking of the opposite -  something like a hole in the CR due to the lack of Investiture. You may want to add it to that list just to include all options we thought of.

18 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

1). Why aren't the shards allowed on Yolen ?

IIRC it was a part of original agreement between Shards (although I tried to find some WoBs and failed, so nothing certain here).

Just wanted to ask if it is anywhere explicitly said that Braize is Damnation? I always took it as 'right, it's like that' but I just had a crazy idea and went searching for quotes or WoBs and I just can't find any proof 

So as I saw this and freaked out for a while as I really wanted anything more about Nalthis. But moving to thoughts I had. 

1) naming it anomaly definitely suggests that Khriss and Nash (and probably the rest of the Silverlight) don't understand how it works or what it is. Just to put it straight. But it is rather a characteristic place in CR so it can be a place that allows a worldhopper to navigate. Not that I find it to be the case. 

2) And here we go to a crazy theory I can't prove at all. What if it just appeared while creating Nightblood? We actually don't know the mechanics behind Awakening but there was involved a huge amount of Investiture and it could have some crazy side effects. 

I'll put it here without referencing previous people because I fell like it'll only create mess. But here we go.

First of all, I believe Tanavast had more control over Nahel bond and KR than Stromfather has now. If it is true (I am not saying it is, just to be accurate) this would probably give him an ability not to accept an oath (though it doesn't sound likely). But I don't think this was the case.

Secondly, yes, Intent could have played the part, but I don't feel like it was the original issue. The bond wasn't possible at all at the beginng - just note that it never says WHO promised it could be done. (I can't find whether we know how old are certain songs, I feel like we don't know but if I'm wrong than please correct me). And it totally makes sense to me that it was Odium. Even more, that sounds like this promise might have played a part it switching sides. The spren stopped coming to Singers and they agreed to Odium sending them Regals etc. Just that sounds like more than only spren
 

Quote

It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
We questioned not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.

If it was so, than after Listneres escaped Odiums influence - they would probably view a bond as impossible again and here we have a part with Intent coming to play. This was impossible for a long time so it is viewed as such by both people and Listeners (so it can be the case with Rlain). 

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

7 hours ago, The traveller said:

Hmm Sel and threnody just got more interesting.. I wonder how much of his investiture is still left on these planets.. It seems totally weird now that how much similarities there are between the shades of threnody and fused. 
May be the shades were an experiment gone wrong which was repeated on Roshar with slightly better results..

Nothing. I doubt Odium would leave behind even a drop of his Investiture like that.

Actually, I disagree, as it just feels to much of an accident that enraged Shades have red eyes (after spilling blood). Though I agree that it's not typical of Odium to do so (I feel like there is something strange going on with Shades, Ambition, Threnody and all of that but I still have to think it through to make any sense).

I absolutely agree @The traveller. I used to think (as most poeple tend to) they are Scadrians. Just the fact that we will see future Scardrial seemed enough. But I started to think of them as Rosharan after a reread, when I noticed how much they care about rules and laws. And, on Scadrial they already have a quite effective way of protecting themselves from allomancy: a Coppercloud or some aluminium. But, if ever people from Roshar get to meet Scadrians (which I find quite likely to haappen later in the cosmere) I can easily see them afraid of emotional allomancy, so it makes sense they would like to have Aviars.

Well, to be honest, I freaked out a little when I saw this. I really wanted this to be true, as I had this trio (Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift) in my head that saw Cultivation insted of Nightwatcher (but IIRC Lift was confirmed to see only Nightwatcher and I was sooo sad about this).

21 hours ago, Iridium Savant said:

That leaves only one place that the Nexus of Truth could lead to in my mind.  The Moons of Roshar.  They have some kind of cognitive aspect in shadesmar and I have been on the 'Moons are super important to whats happening on Roshar' train for a long time so them being associated with "Truth" seems natural to me. 

Exactly what I thought after seeing the map, so I'm with you on this theory. And, @ChickenLiberty, I'm not sure about this, but I don't think we know the way humans used to come from Ashyn (or I missed some important piece of information, and we know).

And, just an addition, but with Broken Sky not confirmed as anything, wouldn't it make more sense as Threnody than Taldain? Just 'broken' goes really well with all the names in this system and what we know about its history.  

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Spren are similar to shades but there's a key difference. Spren are cognitive beings and have negligent properties in the physical realm. 

I would argue with it being the difference, because Shades are CS. 

Quote

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

And I believe the difference between the behaviour of them all comes from the Shard they originate from. 

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The thunderclasts are the big exception but even they manifest via stone and they are few in number compared to the hordes of shades . 

But if they were created in similar way to shades, they would grow in number very quickly. Or at least I feel like this might be a reason. 

Yeah, I agree there is no solid proof whether she died, but I believe her being dead. But I'll move to this later, there is another thing I want to talk before.

The shades.

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

The shades exist on all three realms ,atleast in part. Khriss even wonders if they have souls. They most probably do. I think the defining and differentiating charecteristic of threnodite shades , is that they exist on all three realms but only barely.  

Do you have any quote for this? Because I always thought of them as cognitive shadows forced into the PR. i just find them very, very similar to Rosharan spren when they come into the PR to form a bond - they also became mindless (though even more than the shades, so probably the latter ones still have some connection to other realm).

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

The shade is nothing more than a amalgation of pure envy , anger and hatred now. Envious and angry at others for being lucky enough to be happy or even alive. Thirsting to pass on it's pain and sadness to others ,so they too might know it's misfortune. Or maybe something even more mindless , just a being which wants to kill , to destroy , which has been consumed by destructive emotions so much that it's like a fish in water .

If you want to see a shade this way it would make for them more sense to be splinters of Odium, not Ambition, though I find them more like a mix of the two: just the fact that their eyes go red when raged is enugh for me there was more than one Shard in play.

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

So here's my theory. I think Uli da didn't die , not completely anyway. I think she still has her physical essence but has sacrificed most of her mind , much like preservation did , either to escape from pain or as a determined move to secure vengeance. However she is not bound by non violence like leras was. She hates Odium and is ready to destroy him even if it means destroying herself as well. And she has become consumed by anger ,pain and despair . It doesn't clash with her intent , as her intent now is still ambition. Ambition to watch Odium burn. Indeed in a way it makes sense , there is no one more vengeful than an ambitious person cheated and nearly violated in almost every way possible. ( Which I believe is what being almost splintered must feel like )

I am almost sure she died. At least I remember it this way, that she died from mortal wounds received during fight with Odium. But I just realized that Shades could have been sort of her backup plan. 

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FirstSelector

Did Ambition fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

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Questioner

What stories should I read that have Ambition’s influence in them? Where should I look for Ambition’s influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition’s influence. So, uhm, you have seen it but I’m not going to say anything more than that. Let’s just say that the things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

These 2 WoBs give me impression that Ambition could have had rather good futuresight (it goes quite well with her intent). It would totally make sense for her to expect the fight and make some preparations toward it. She got splintered, but left behind something that was supposed to try destroying Odium when given a chance.

On 27.09.2019 at 6:55 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

She hates Odium and is ready to destroy him even if it means destroying herself as well. And she has become consumed by anger ,pain and despair . It doesn't clash with her intent , as her intent now is still ambition. Ambition to watch Odium burn. Indeed in a way it makes sense , there is no one more vengeful than an ambitious person cheated and nearly violated in almost every way possible.

With this I totally agree, but I just not think it is still her. Though I can think of her having a Cognitive Shadow - just like Tanavast has - that would behave in a similar way.

EDIT: just found another WoB and it can actually support your theory about her not being dead. So it is still open I guess.

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)