Sedside

@Karger, now you are twisting about and exaggerating my arguments. Out of your own, I guess? I have never said Adolin should be drooling over Shallan or act like a Shakespeare character to convince me he is in love with her. I merely said that I would like to read at least ONE sign of love from his side in this last dialog. You say that Adolin showed a lot of signs of love, but you don't give me any quotes, and just insult me with your "wow" and "drooling over".

I would like it to happen, because there are people who don't read books

I see it definitely possible from Adolin's side, but not from Shallan.

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Or perhaps he is just coming to grips with the extent of her trauma and is expressing concern for her well-being?

Or perhaps he just doesn't love her? Citing Adolin himself - "Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one". You have been creating so many different excuses to explain the fact that he shows no signs of love except for the easiest one - lack of love.

Besides, do you think it's impossible to show concern for someone's trauma and love at the same time? Couldn't Sanderson at least write Adolin kissing Shallan himself in the end, instead of asking her to kiss him again? Couldn't one of the lines be "Shallan, I'm so happy! But I'm worried about you"?

Thanks!

The other thing I think is hard about spren is how to explain which kind each one is. In the text it's like "an exhaustionspren appeared". In the show how can it be explained properly? And other stuff that is explained in text, but not in direct speech - values of different kinds of spheres, Roshar history (will require additional time screen) and so on.

Also, how to properly show Windrunners flying as a fall, and still looking beautiful.

Interludes and characters, who appear for short amount of time - in the show it's easy to forget and also seems useless, like why is it here in the first place for a common viewer.

I was pretty sure they were already making a WoK movie. It's still on the script stage, though.

4 hours ago, deacon said:

So the subtext of all the scenes in OB where Adolin and Shallan like each other, care about each other, are consistently there for each other, move from being scared of losing the relationship in Part One to being honest with each other and affirming they want to be together in Parts Four and Five, and then getting married - these are all things that are romance-coded.

Oh, I haven't seen this on my first reply, I have to disagree with your "they decided to be together" part. It's Shallan who decided to be with Adolin, because she needed an anchor to her "Shallan" persona and also wanted to finally have sex.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I guess I just disagree that it's common and that every young man has to react that way. I mean, I found Adolin's reaction really understandable. If I was with this amazing, cool woman, like I just couldn't believe that she was with ME, but I keep seeing her make eyes at one of my best friends, a friend I respect the hell out of... Yeah, tbh, I think I'd react the same way as Adolin did. Being completely crushed but trying to be good about it... Anyway, that's just my point - it's not universally accepted that Adolin did it believably or not believably. Some readers thought it was unbelievable, but other readers thought it was believable. I'm sure Brandon heard feedback of all kinds and is aware of the readers' majority thoughts.

Again, I'm not talking about Adolin trying to get out of relationship because of Kaladin. I'm talking about that part of dialogue, that came after her tirade of how much she loves him. Just try to imagine it. You are a young man, who is very much in love with a girl, but you see, that she obviously prefers another one. You are betrothed with her, but you have a feeling, that she is just sorry for you and doesn't really want you. So you decide to do the right thing and let her go. That's awesome! That's very respectful to her and yourself, I totally appreciate it and support this kind of decision. Then you go to her and say that. But in reply you hear, that you are wrong, she loves you so so much, she wants to rip your shirt off, and in the end she springs upon you with a passionate kiss.  How would you react, if you, I repeat, were an infatuated young man, who was geniunely concerned about her feelings for you and was about to make a tough decision and lose her? I would actually expect something like "Oh, storms, Shallan, I'm so happy! I could never believe you love me!" and probably expect him to kiss her back. But what do we see?

Quote

“Are you … are you sure?” he asked. “I just … Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.”

“Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”

“That’s worrisome, Shallan.”

“I won’t let her act on it. I promise.”

“I didn’t mean that,” Adolin said. “I meant … you, Shallan. Becoming other people.”

“We’re all different people at different times. Remember?”

“Not the same way as you.”

Where is happiness? Where is love? Where is relief? He continues searching for excuses. She continues convincing him she really really wants to marry him. Is this the guy that is genuinely in love? Well, you already said, that you think Adolin has shallow feelings for her, this episode just supports it. Shallow feelings and no desire to marry as well. He just wasn't too determined about it and let her persuade him, and I think his overall fear to disappoint his family played a big role here.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

The purpose of it not being clear, I completely agree with you. I still think it's over and that Mr. Checkov's gun was disarmed and thrown away, but I don't know why it had to come up at all... I mean, literature is different from theater, and Checkov's Gun is only for stage direction, not novels. I see your point, though. The reason I'm thinking of right now is that it was important for them to connect in WoR, and then in OB, Shallan needed another option so that she had an out with Adolin if she wanted it and Kaladin needed to realize that he wanted a relationship. But maybe I'll change my mind when we see where their characters go in SA4.

Fine, then we agree to RAFO it. Though I disagree with theater and literature differences. You really don't have to waste page time for something that doesn't serve any purpose. I think it's a law. Otherwise you should write about every character's visit to the privy. They do it, right? But writers don't write about it, unless it's somehow necessary to the plot, like Adolin's story about Shardplate, that served the purpose of showing, how crazy Shallan could be in a conversation and how Adolin loves to talk about his... emm... well, doesn't matter. Or Witcher spoilers:

And still it's just a little piece of text, not a whole plotline with a lot of page time that went nowhere.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Ahh, I'll be more clear, my bad: I meant in terms of interacting beyond surface level conversation/banter. I think every part of their relationship - how they talked, how often they talked, how they thought about each other - was done completely intentionally. It doesn't read like how a great romance should go... It reads as "despite a great moment at the beginning, when we get into it, there's not a lot there". Will that continue in SA4? Maybe, but the only one who could convince me now is Brandon, and I know he's not going to ignore the characterization he gave us in OB. The way they acted isn't just a pause before something great - there's a problem in their relationship and it wasn't overcome in OB. The problem they have, that Brandon communicated in OB, is that they haven't actually made it to a point of really understanding each other. I don't think they really understand each other right now as it stands, and I would feel really robbed if SA4 goes there and pretends that what happened in OB was just a little stumble. 

There is a very good and obvious reason for their shallow interactions in OB. She is betrothed! Kaladin just can't ignore this fact and start pursuing her more obvoiusly. They had three dialogues, one of them was amazing (smile, I need you to smile), one of them started pretty nice, but went astray because of their mental states, the third one was neutral. The whole OB Kaladin was watching Shallan flirting with Adolin before his eyes and listening to her mocking him. What did he have to do? Go tell her he loves her? All he could do was be nice with her and hope she would reply likewise. She didn't. He understood it and walked away. Why didn't she reply likewise? Because she fell apart. She became weaker in OB, so she picked the easier, safer option. She didn't want to confront her feelings, her fears, the society, Jasnah, Navani, everything she believed in during her life, she also decided, that Adolin will help her keep her Shallan persona anchored. It greatly contradicts her previous behaviour towards his overprotectiveness for her. But Shallan persona is the weakest one (I've found one more quote later, but not sure if it is all right to edit post after such a long time, even though noone actually replied to it), so she needed Adolin to keep her present, and "without him she fades". But Kaladin fell for her because of her strength. He thought "this woman was stronger than he'd ever been". She is not that woman anymore. She pushed her strength into Veil and Radiant, but being Veil and Radiant means to face the truth she spoken, and she can't.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

And actually, I think I have to disagree with you about Shallan's lesson, now that this is coming up. Because her entire problem for like all the books is that she needs help but is refusing to ask for it. Like, that scene with Jasnah in Part Two? Where Shallan almost confesses what she's up to and asks for her help? But then she refuses to? Shallan's whole character is about her being in such a bad mental/emotional place that she's isolated and won't un-isolate herself. This is presented as a problem. In fact, her two problems set up at the beginning of OB are that she wants to be independent even though she knows she's not ready, and she's not being emotionally honest. By the end of OB and her emotional arc, she's admitted it's okay to be dependent (resuming her wardship with Jasnah) and was emotionally honest (telling Adolin the truth about... well, tons of stuff). The last thing she needs is to try and solve her problems all by herself, and I really think Brandon's setting up the completely opposite idea. 

Ohhh, it seems like we read Shallan too differently then. She didn't ask for any help in WoR and was pretty much all right on her own. She was brilliant, actually, I loved her in WoR much more than I loved Kaladin. I don't think it's a good message at all - if you need help ask for it. I think it's a bad message, actually, every person has to learn to help themselves on their own. To be strong and independent. I think, Knights Radiant are kind of about it too. Wardship is not dependence. It's like the same as to say that being an employed worker is dependence. You can be dependent, of course, being an employee, but if you are a good specialist it's not so. And being a ward is the same - you learn from your superior, if they are willing to teach you. To be married or in a romantic relationship is also not equal being dependent. Two strong independent people can love each other and remain strong and independent, and that's another reason, I think, Kaladin and Shallan didn't yet get together. And will after they both deal with their issues on their own. Without asking for help outside and leaning on someone.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Like you mentioned Kaladin's thing with deciding to try and kill Elhokar? That was explicitly written as bad in the text: he explicitly felt weird and guilty, and Syl was being damaged, and the readers always knew it was about him agreeing to help kill Elhokar. I felt sort of sick to my stomach when I read those bits. Maybe you get the same feeling when you think about the Shallan/Adolin marriage, but I don't think that's nearly as explicit as Kaladin's bad decision was. For Shallan, I feel sick to my stomach every time she decides to hide what she's doing and try and solve it by herself. (Can you tell I'm anxious about the Ghostbloods plotline??? God) So that's my emotional reasoning as to why I don't think the marriage thing is a mistake, or at least, definitely not that level of mistake.

Yes, I felt sick, when Shallan decided to marry Adolin because "he knows her" and squeezed her hand on the right time. And because "without him she fades". I don't feel sick when the woman decides to do all by herself. It's good, when woman thinks she doesn't have to depend on a man. This woman is much more attractive to men, than the woman that depends on men and wants their help/emotional/financial support. Everyone can be weak, everyone can ask for help and hope for a sponsor. There is no value for me in such a character. What I would like to read is a strong woman, not this mess "I need his help and protection, oh, I'm a weak girl". Why I think marriage was a mistake, is that Adolin doesn't love her, but she selfishly glues to him to get his help. And as Kaladin felt nauseated for his decision to help kill Elhokar, Shallan would also feel the consequences of sticking to an indifferent man and luring him into marriage. He wouldn't magically start loving her in SA4, he wouldn't be that support to her, she wanted, because people get tired of supporting people they don't love, especially when all they want from you is that mentioned support, and it's free of charge. It's a vampiric behaviour, nobody loves vampires (Bella Swan doesn't count). So what I see as a lesson is that she would feel even more lonely in SA4, because Adolin would be cold and probably fool around with Tarah unfaithful, and Kaladin would be avoiding her, and also probably would have a relationship with Jasnah Rysn Jasnah another woman. So it would be like she had them both and she lost them both with her stupid decision. And she would understand, that this time noone is actually going to help her, because noone cares about weak people. And she would have to gather her nuts in her fist, remember her Ideals and become better Shallan, than she was in WoR. The real Shallan we heard so much about and want to see her finally.

I'm sorry, if I sound harsh, those are my feelings for Shallan, and not for you. I'm quite pissed with her after OB, so it's hard for me to stay calm, I don't mean to offend you in any way.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Oh, nice. Yes, the Warbreaker romance was quite cute, but if you look at the sensibilities of the pairing, it's closer to Adolin/Shallan than Kaladin/Shallan. Seeing as most people I talk to think Adolin/Shallan was just as cute and believable and nice as his other main romances, I really can't believe he's going to change it. Like I said before, Brandon frequently goes for the nice, cute romance, and so far, this is no exception from his other works. Brandon also doesn't do triangles like ever, so I think that's why I have ambivalent feelings about the ships in Stormlight here, but when I actually compare the character types and how the romance progressed, you start to see the pattern.

Yeah, I agree, that it's closer to Adolin/Shallan totally, then to Kaladin/Shallan, but it's still much better, more believable, more genuine and so on. I read love from both sides of that romance, and the love is genuine from both sides, not that they both squeeze it out of themselves and pretend for it to be. Their relationship also had faced some obvious troubles, a lot of troubles and problems, and they had to overcome them. They even had some kind of fights and misunderstandings (a little, but still). Adolin and Shallan totally lack all of that from the very start. The first big problem they faced was "leering" at Kaladin and that almost ruined their marriage. The only reason they "overcame" this problem is that Shallan decided to glue to Adolin, and Adolin isn't determined enough and probably isn't proud enough to keep to his "decision".

Again, I don't find Adolin and Shallan cute. I find it deeply troubling, intentionally cheesy and totally unconvincing. They were railroaded from the start to "the end", never faced any real problems, that they had to solve. Adolin's relationship issues magically vanished. Sadeas magically vanished. Multiple personas are ok, fine, no problem. Leering at another guy is "don't worry, I won't do that again". All the problems, they faced, were solved by Shallan alone. I count not only Kaladin issue here, but also creation of Radiant, when Adolin decided to teach her sword despite her lack of desire, and Helaran reveal, when Adolin totally missed her breakdown on hearing it. I see the relationship of two selfish people, that only want to solve their own problems by this marriage, or to avoid responsibility, or to avoid fear, or whatever else. I don't see it like "I love him and I want to be with him", and "I love her and I want to be with her" (which is totally different from what I read in Warbreaker). I see it as "I'm so weak, that I need him to support me, so I will fool myself, as I've already been doing for my entire life, that I love him, and I will convince him to marry me", and "I can't keep a girl on my own, so I will let someone else choose a girl for me, I don't actually love her, because the only person I've ever loved in my life is myself, but I will generously marry her, if she wants it so much and will be on top in bed".

6 hours ago, Karger said:

My point is that Dalinar, Shallan, Adolin and Navani are people and that people express love differently.  Whatever Navani and Dalinar do registers on your love meter.  Adolin and Shallan do not.  According to Pattern it would be true for you to consider Adolin and Shallan to not be in love even if many of us would argue otherwise. 

Using this logic we can say that Adolin disgusts Shallan, because he expresses his disgust differently from other people and it looks like love in his case. Common psychology laws should remain the same in literature, and when the girl young man is theoretically in love with says "I want to marry you and rip your shirt off", when he was just about to lose her forever to another guy, he shouldn't reply "Are you sure? Are you really really sure? I mean, you have those other personas stuff and all... I don't know... Well, if you ask so..." He should say something about how happy and relieved he is. He should kiss her himself, not let her kiss him (for the second time already) and so on.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Besides, after all the talk about surface level attractions being a negative, I'm fine with him not having that thought in the text if it would just be taken as a sign that he only has a surface-level attraction to her.

All right, I can take that. I agree with a surface level attraction from Adolin.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I mean, that's your take. I went from liking the idea of Kaladin/Shallan - or, Shalladin, yeah - in WoR to really being disenchanted with the idea of them in OB, based on how Brandon intentionally wrote them in this third book. In fact, in OB is when I got really upset at how Shallan thought about Kaladin. In my reading, she went from learning to try and understand Kaladin in WoR to OB where she just... really objectifies him, all that "ooh, he's so passionate and dark and stormy" (and it's even more stomach-turning when it's Veil thinking about Kaladin). In her POV, it's like... it's just so different from (1) how she interacted with him in WoR and (2) how I think about Kaladin. In OB, suddenly she was so shallow about how she thought about Kaladin, and it could have become so deep, but... Like, this is a progression of time. She catches herself thinking about Kaladin in OB and remembering their past connection, and then, no matter what the reasons are, decided to stop trying actually getting to know him. 

Well, her change in OB for Kaladin could be explained by pushing her feelings into Veil instead of Shallan, because of Helaran/Jasnah chastisement. Shallan as Shallan only thought about Kaladin once and it was not like "he is so dark and stormy", it was more like in WoR, I think, but whatever, I don't disagree with you here too, I just think (again) that there is a good explanation of it in Shallan's character.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

The thing is that both Kaladin and Shallan do think about the chasm scene in OB - but the chasm scene happened in WoR, and is a past event. I thought it was a great moment of connection for these two, a really meaningful, intimate scene. (Though if I'm being honest, no, I don't think it was the most romantic episode I've ever read - only one of Brandon's relationships hits my top ten list and that's the aforementioned main ship in Mistborn Era 2.) Kaladin and Shallan think so, too. It wasn't dropped in two lines of thinking at the end. It was being dropped over the course of every time they thought about each other. 

Like, personally? I was expecting - or at least hoping for - some scenes where they kept connecting in OB. I thought they might learn to understand each other more, in order to support each other and start a real friendship, if not more. But what happened was that even thought they had that one moment, it didn't continue. It wasn't a series of moments. From what Brandon gave us in OB, it was like... they had the potential to be more. They absolutely had the potential to be more, but every time, they didn't pursue it. I don't even think the reason why matters, because at the end of the day, they moved on, and it doesn't seem to be a trick. I think their interactions in OB were definitely trying to tell us something about Kaladin and Shallan, and that is even though they have the potential to be more, that doesn't mean they have to be more. They're given multiple opportunities to grow towards each other in OB. Multiple chances to talk, really talk, and try and support each other, but it doesn't happen. This is where my nice ideas of what they could have been hits the wall of what Brandon is telling us they'd be like - and we have a situation where they both have such a good starting connection point and neither of them choose to do anything about it. Apparently that's the kind of people they are.

I think Shallan was the biggest obstacle here - I think she could have chosen Kaladin if she really wanted to. But that scene at the end where Adolin gives her the opportunity to freely walk away from him with no hard feelings and go to Kaladin if she wants - even if he did it very clumsily - was the scene where I knew Brandon was shutting that door. That's the narrative way of saying given the real option, free of coercion, she still chose Adolin and like... okay, Brandon, alright, you're the boss. I'm okay with the idea of Adolin/Shallan in concept, same as Kaladin/Shallan, I just was annoyed by the whole situation, I guess. I don't have to love it to see that's what Brandon was doing.

It's possible that more may come of it later in a situation where for whatever reason Shallan and Adolin aren't together, and Kaladin and Shallan get together, but it's not because Adolin/Shallan was a mistake. If a canon Kaladin/Shallan happens, it has to take into account the things we learned about them in OB. What happened between them in OB was not an accident. It wasn't an oversight that they barely spoke, and when they spoke, it went badly. Clearly they weren't ready for what could have been right now, but I don't believe that means they must be together for it to be a resolution of this arc. What happened in OB was a resolution of that idea, it just resolved as a not-relationship.

Why Brandon decided to start it when this is the ending? God, I have no idea. I'd love to ask him if I thought he'd give an answer that isn't RAFO. I guess he thinks it'll be more clear to us when we have hindsight of later books.

All right, I understand. Looks like we kinda see the same things in the text, but make the different conclusions out of them. I would totally agree with your "they just decided not to develop their feelings" statement, if it was real life and not literature. In literature any plot line should have some purpose. What purpose did Shalladin have in SA? How did it serve their character development or overall plot? What were chasms written for? Kaladin hurt his leg, Shallan learned that Shattered Plains were symmetrical. I pretty much believe it could have been done in less than 5 chapters. Kaladin's perception of lighteyes? I don't think Shallan had a big influence on it, but whatever, let it be. Let chasms sequence stay, but remove romance from there. Let them go through it like friends and that's it. And what purpose did their romance have in OB? To dissociate Shallan further? Even if we forget the fact, that Brandon said he tweaked the romance into different personas thing only after beta read, it still doesn't explain Kaladin's involvement in it. Let Shallan be in love with him, but leave poor Kaladin alone. It is a Checkov gun. It was loaded and readied, but never fired. That's why I am so convinced about the subversion (not the only reason though, I'll repeat).

And the other fact is that, you say they decided not to interact, but that's not true. We know that they had at least three or even four dialogues that happened off screen - Thaylen flight, Kaladin's invitation into it, Shallan's talk to him about coming with him to Kholinar and possible flight to draw Urithiru. So the interactions were there, it's just Brandon who decided not to show them to us. So, for you OB reads like "Shallan and Kaladin started well in WoR, but decided not to continue in OB", and I read it like "Brandon has written the start of an amazing romance in WoR, but it was too early for it to manifest in OB, also Shallan has to make some mistakes, and Kaladin has to become a King so he put this on pause in order for it to come up later and finally serve the plot".

Actually, my theory is that Shallan's marriage with Adolin is the same thing character development wise as Kaladin's decision to participate in Elhokar's assassination. A mistake she made to realize it later and fix it. And mistake is not "I picked the wrong guy", the mistake is "I picked a guy to support me, when I have to be my own support". Again, it's a short thesis, I could explain it with much more details, I just don't want to make this post too big. It already is...

Oh, and please, PM me some of your top ten list, I would like to read it!

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I really think you ought to give his other books a read. It's all really good stuff, but maybe you'd benefit from seeing how little Brandon is focused on romances overall. They always come second to plot. Brandon has very complex overarching plots, but he's a very straightforward writer. He has fairly simple prose - which is something I like - but this also means he's more of a "what you see is what you get" type of person. Everything he's said in interviews says to me that Brandon considers the situation resolved as of the end of OB. 

I will, I've just discovered him recently, I am reading Mistborn already. But anyway, I still think, that I am reading this particular book. And I see an amazing chasm sequence there. I mean, I couldn't have written it myself. Shadolin - pfff, easily. I could've done better, than Shadolin, tbh (I'm not a writer, it's just how bad it looks in my opinion). So it seems to me in SA that i) Brandon can write a decent romance, ii) He pays enough attention to it. Again, in SA. Other books - no idea, only read Warbreaker. Romance was not stunning, but believable and nice. And much better, than Shadolin. Waaaay better.

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have a hard time believing that Heralan's antipathy toward his father was faked.  This implies that he would never be working with his father meaning they were not on the same side.

I didn't say it was faked. I think it just was used against him. I'm not sure Lin was a member, he could just use members. And he has joined much later than Helaran.

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

As to the ghostbloods setting up Heralan to be killed by Kaladin.  The entire idea is impractical.  Kaladin barley manages it and what if Heralan does not approach from Kaladin's side of the battle?  Also don't they have tones of competent assassins at their disposal?  Also how do the ghostbloods know that Kaladin has bonded a spren?  He has not yet sworn any ideals.

It was one of the plans. Plan A. Or B. They knew about Tien, why couldn't they send Helaran to test Kaladin?

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why risk sending her to the bottom of the ocean? The whole assassination of Jasnah on the ship stops making sense.

A warden of Jasnah Kholin going to the Ghostbloods? They could never be sure of her.

Why would they watch a Radiant who got her sword at an extremely young age so lightly that she can go of to put herself at the disposal of Jasnah Kholin?

Sending her to bottom of the ocean is a test, like a carriage driver. It's not like "we need her serve us at all costs". It's like "let's see if she can get out of this mess". If she drowned it would just mean she is not worth the effort.

That's why they don't recruit her, but make her think she is infiltrating them and investigating. And then they get her hooked with little tidbits of what she wants to know and that's it. Her brothers, Helaran, the Unmade and so on.

I don't know why going to Jasnah Kholin is bad from Ghostbloods point of view. I don't also buy their explanation of her assassination. They are not kind of guys who would want a revenge, I think. They are rational. They make use of things.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then how could Shallan's mnemonic capabilities be unknown to them? And why didn't they try to recruit her earlier? And why did they send another agent with the Soulcaster?

Why do you think her abilities are unknown to them? I don't think Mraize could be unaware that Veil is Shallan from the start. He could just lie to make her feel flattered and lure her deeper with Helaran tidbit. As to recruiting her - perhaps they thought she would come to them on her own when she is ready and willing to. When someone thinks he came to you on his own and that he outplayed you it is much better, then when you asked him to join you. In the latter case you are in a weaker position. Warbreaker spoilers:

Agent with the Soulcaster was sent to enter the Davar estate and to research the Unmade. Lin was in need of money, so Ghostbloods gave him what he wanted.

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Now look at Heleren's activities. Traveling all across Roshar. Access to spies. Going specifically to kill an enemy agent in a way that looks like a nominal battlefield loss. He has no compunction about killing a squad of spearmen who mostly were not opposing him in any way. Another piece of evidence, the Ghostbloods know a lot about some unimportant noble family in the back country. Why would the Ghostbloods waste that kinda time on research? I mean they didn't have to look all that hard to pull up info to try and sway our intrepid Lightweaver. They got some of it from Luesh obviously, but why was he sent there specifically? Does anyone actually think Lin Davar was competent enough to attract the Ghostbloods on his own? No, I think he was sent, that Heleren gave them enough info to whet their appetites, they saw the influence of whatever dark cloud that was hanging over the Davar household, and expanded their knowledge. Either that or they were watching the house because they were keeping tabs on an enemy agent (Shallan's mom and her buddy working for Skybreakers) and the events there made them want to recruit Heleren, tempting him with promises of revenge.

I also think Heleren was misled, lied to about the Ghostbloods' purposes. I'm sure his handler talked a good game, giving him an opportunity for revenge with one hand, promises of great purpose with the other, never knowing he was being played the entire time.

Thank you for this! This is very interesting. Covering Amaram's death with a battle loss is a good idea. And the whole Davar family economic situation could also be caused by the Ghostbloods through Helaran, he was in contact with Valam's bastard Redin, so he could organize that bad deal, that aggravated their financial state. So it could be that Helaran was recruited by Ghostbloods with the "display of great power and Shards", as you suggest. Then they manipulated him to constantly threat his father. Helaran's threats and Davar's family bankruptcy made Lin search for support outside, so Ghostbloods offered him their help too, and infiltrated their estate with more reliable agents - Luesh and the guards. Helaran has become unnecessary at this point and they decided to get rid of him and sent him to kill Amaram, hoping that Kaladin would kill him, but having plan B with Lin and his order to assassinate Helaran. And yeah, all of that was done to keep one eye on the Unmade, and the second eye on Shallan.

3 hours ago, deacon said:

Like I said above, there's a lot justifying it implicitly, and that's not nothing. It doesn't need to be explicit for it to be there. But if you feel so strongly it's not present at all, then I guess there's nothing left to say.

I didn’t only say that it’s missing from Adolin’s PoVs,  I also said that in my opinion his other actions and behaviour pretty much contradict of how I think young infatuated man should look like. There are a lot of other examples of people in love even in SA, even two old ardents in the interlude look much more convincing to me, than Adolin. And yeah, I feel strongly about it, because I see Adolin thinking “Syl is pretty”, and I don’t see Adolin thinking “Shallan is pretty”. I see Adolin thinking about Janala, about Malasha, about Danlan, I don’t see him thinking about Shallan in OB. Yes, he was thinking about her in WoR, and I think he was infatuated with her in WoR, but he kind of chilled in OB.

3 hours ago, deacon said:

Do I think it's gone forever? Nah. Do I still think it was taken into account with her decision at the end of OB? Yeah, I do. I think Brandon made it as clear as he could 

That’s good we agree at some point

3 hours ago, deacon said:

Sarcasm isn't a good look when other people are coming in in good faith. It comes off as condescending, and if this is going to continue, I'd rather not talk to you anymore. Anyway, I said in one of my first posts that I agreed Shallan also thought Adolin was attractive (and her to him!) - but that isn't all of how she thinks and interacts with him.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you.

I actually didn’t say that she only thinks about Adolin in a sexy way. She thinks the other things about him too, but what surprises me is that sexual context is much more present in her perception of Adolin, than in her perception of Kaladin, and still so many people say “she only thinks Kaladin is sexy, whereas with Adolin she has compassionate love”. I really just don’t understand how it is possible. Even her final tirade justifying her decision to marry him starts with his looks (handsome as sin) and finishes with sex (want to rip his shirt off). If we look at the overall dynamic of Shadolin vs Shalladin, we will also see the difference. She sees Adolin and the first thing she thinks is how handsome he is. But she has only started developing any kind of romantic feelings to Kaladin after she understood, what kind of person he is.

3 hours ago, deacon said:

Unfortunately, I don't think that's enough to justify it being a subversion. Brandon really does not write spectacular romances. Avoiding spoilers, the main one in Mistborn Era 2 was his only romance that I think surprised me - and even then, it was clear at the end of each book where everyone stood. He hasn't done the big surprise subversion of any romance that I recall. He does write cheesy romances! I rolled my eyes through pretty much all of his books in the main romance.

I’ve only read Warbreaker so far, but I actually like how Shalladin is written. For me it is very decent and a kind of romance I appreciate a lot. I don’t think I’ve ever seen something like that in any other fantasy book. Th chasm sequence is one of the best romantic episodes I’ve read so far. Again, I could explain into it much deeper, but it’s not quite the topic.

Yes, maybe Brandon writes cheesy romance, but to me it seems that Shadolin is written cheesy intentionally. This “without you I fade”…

3 hours ago, deacon said:

I agree that it's not a coincidence Kaladin and Shallan only spoke three times. But I think that was Brandon saying not to expect anything else. "I was not satisfied with this" does not mean "this thing you are dissatisfied with is going to change in the next book". Especially when Brandon is pretty straightforward in how he writes romances in his other books, it just... I know what it feels like to try and be optimistic in the face of something I really disliked, and I was pretty dang underwhelmed by Shallan/Adolin in OB... But that doesn't mean I think that's proof of Brandon's intentions to break them up. I am both unenthused with the romantic plot of OB and fairly certain that he doesn't have a plan to change what he did. 

One of the reasons I'm reading this last paragraph of yours and being so sure is just... there were SO many other "missing" scenes in Oathbringer. It wasn't just Kaladin and Shallan's scenes. Kaladin and Shallan's relationship was evidently not special enough to make the cut, just like many others people were complaining about being absent or lackluster. Since I can't see a reason that the absence of a relationship in the text means that that relationship is more special than all the other people who were missing important scenes (like Amaram, or Jasnah, or Szeth at the end), I just can't buy into that reasoning. So I'm just bummed out that this is how the Kaladin/Shallan relationship was left in canon, and hoping that they at least get a couple of nice buddy scenes in SA4 and 5.

I didn’t say that lack of Shalladin scenes in OB points at their romance being special. Actually, it’s the chasm sequence that points to it. My argument was that if you as a writer initiate any plot line (romantic in this case), and want to finish it in a convincing way, then you don’t just drop it from the text with the two lines of thinking in the end, supported by “oh, I’ve just decided that I don’t love him” or something. Brandon has written chasm sequence, it lasted 5 chapters, it started a romantic plot line between Shallan and Kaladin and it seemed pretty storming convincing and good to me. So if Brandon wants to sell me the idea “Kaladin is bad for Shallan” than he probably has to write more than one little piece of misunderstanding in the next book to make me believe it. Otherwise, if he doesn’t want Shallan to end up with Kaladin - why start it in the first place?

I understand, that I can’t express everything I think about the romance “resolve” in OB in this thread and perhaps in one post too. I have much more thoughts about it, than I wrote in my post. I could write a huge essay explaining why I am so certain there will be a subversion. Really huge. But this is not the topic and perhaps also not the community to do it. I just know that I will get overwhelmed by all the Shadolin supporters here, so I think we will just have to RAFO it.

And regarding Brandon and his cheesy romances. SA is going to be his magnum opus. This fact makes me hope, that he will take the romances in it very seriously too. I just hope that Shalladin is meant to be his best romance ever

45 minutes ago, BookishOcelot said:

What? No! I was responding to the idea of ploticsl marriage in general on Roshar. I definitely think Kaladin would reject anyone who tried to marry him for anything other than true love. 

Oh, all right, I misunderstood you, excuse me!

43 minutes ago, deacon said:

I bolded the bit that I am very confused at, because none of that is written in the books. He's not angry, and there's no evidence that he thinks of his relationship with Shallan as a game. In fact, we have it written in Shallan's POV that she knows he's nervous about wrecking the relationship, and that was a scene just between them without Kaladin being involved at all. I'm thinking back to OB, but I don't think this reading is based in anything from the actual text that Brandon wrote. Is this from a WoB?

None of Adolin's love for Shallan is written in the books too. We have 0 (zero) occurences in his OB PoVs when he thinks Shallan is pretty, he loves her, he wants to be with her or whatever else. But it doesn't prevent people from thinking that Adolin loves Shallan. That's wonderful, I think.

Judging Adolin's thoughts from Shallan's PoV is a strange thing to do as well. Noone can know what other person is thinking about. Shallan thinks Adolin thinks she is pretty, but in Adolin's PoVs we never actually see him thinking so. We never see him thinking that he is afraid of ruining this betrothal. He says it, yes, but, I think I'll never get tired of repeating it, what character says isn't the same what character thinks, you have to look at the wider context of the conversation. We see, how he behaves in their after TCB dialogue - he doesn't sound infatuated to me. He finds endless excuses not to marry, there are like 5 lines from his side expressing different kinds of objections against it, but he falls under Shallan's pressure, because he is overall this kind of guy - undetermined. Judging his feelings by Shallan's thoughts about his feelings is the same as (Warbreaker spoilers):

 

52 minutes ago, deacon said:

What I found interesting was that Kaladin actually wonders what happened about their time in the chasm, because he certainly thought it was meaningful. But then he thinks of it because he's so surprised that she seems to be totally "forgetting" it and treating him so meanly. Not talking about WoR here, but just in OB, that's pretty much it. He thinks of being attracted to her, and once or twice recalls the chasms as being meaningful and sad/confused that she's like pretending it didn't happen, and then it's basically dropped.

Well, according to Shallan's dialogue with Radiant and Veil after TC battle, she was thinking about the chasms. But we all know, that Shallan has a bad habit of lying to herself and hiding from things. She confronted the truth about Helaran and it was gone in two lines of text and never go out again. Do you think it is really gone? I don't. I think it's just hidden somewhere inside Radiant's or Veil's conscious. Why can't they probably think about it, while Shallan is in her "Shallan" persona? Radiant said "we were dancing around a decision ever since those days we spent in chasms with Stormblessed" - but where is the dancing? I don't see it. Maybe it was off-screen in Radiant all along, but it was there, because Radiant was talking about it. Shallan is hard to understand, that's why this situation is so confusing. And I think it is intentional from Brandon's side to make it so confusing. If he clearly states, how much Shallan actually loves Kaladin, the following subversion of her horrible marriage won't be so surprising for the majority of readers

58 minutes ago, deacon said:

But opposed to Kaladin's POV... There is Shallan's POV. I think that in Shallan's POV, whenever she thinks of Kaladin, she does the whole entire "oh, he's so dark and stormy", which is basically... just saying that he's sexy and she's attracted to him. Which is weird to me, because the way Shallan sees him during OB is not the way I think of Kaladin at all, and kind of left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Well, if you think "he is controlling his passion, he dominated his wrath, he is determined, and solemn, you can't change him whatever you do and whoever you are" equals "he is sexy", then what do you think about "oh that hair, oh that smile, oh that voice, oh those stupid arms, oh I want to rip his shirt off"? The first is "she just wants sex with him" and the second is "compassionate love"? You guys really blow my head with that kind of analysis 

1 hour ago, deacon said:

This is all kinda weird to me, because I know Brandon has said something like... treating each book as its own distinct novel, and in OB as an individual thing, Kaladin and Shallan's entire thing was basically dropped. I guess that's how Brandon wanted it to come off... :/

I will repeat, I think it's all intentional from Brandon's side in order to make a subversion later. Why didn't he show Kaladin and Shallan flying to Thaylen City? Why is there a picture of Urithiru with Kaladin in it, and no story about how he flew her there to draw it? Why so many interactions between them are off screen? We only have 3 (three) dialogues between Shallan and Kaladin in OB, and one of them is when they both are in bad state of minds after their respective failures in Kholinar. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so. If they were really so bad for each other like so many people here say they are - why not write more of their interactions to make it more obvious? Not one dialogue, that went bad (only in the end, I would also notice, it started pretty well, actually) because of their mental states, but two, three, four dialogues, where everything falls apart, and the result looks more convincing? If Brandon really wanted to show Shadolin as something good, why does it look so cheesy then? Why is that "you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful without you I fade"? Is it how he thinks a real compassionate love looks like? Why is Adolin trying to give her up even after her tirade oh how handsome and sexy he is and how much she wants him? Why doesn't Adolin ever think about her, but still thinks Syl is pretty (three times)? Why is that R-V-S dialogue in the end about "we are decided, but we could do better"? Why hasn't she burn a prayer? Why such a haste with marriage? Why, why, why? So many why's. And I didn't mention them all, as there are much more, actually.

Storms, this Shalladin vs Shadolin is swallowing me up again.

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Diagram... Maybe. I'm hesitant to make that Connection in only the word of Danlan having supposedly been in Kholinar at near the same time by her word alone. 

Heleran's blade was most definitely a dead Shardblade. If it were a living spren, the bond would have ended naturally and the Blade wouldn't have stayed behind. It was dead and able to be picked up by someone else. But I don't think that bars him from attracting a spren. It didn't stop Dalinar or Elhokar.

I don't say Danlan is the only argument for the Diagram. It's just like a cherry on top of the pie, actually. The main reasons are in the post. And I also forgot to mention Helaran's and Davar's overall involvement with Jah Keved politics on the side of Valam, who ended up as King.

I mentioned other Blade versions than the dead one just for the sake of considering all of the options. I think it was dead too.

You talk about it the way like the only thing Kaladin lacks is a willing woman, so anyone can offer him his daughter and there we go. He is one of the most eligible bachelors on Roshar, come on. Knight Radiant, Shardbearer, landowner, Blackthorn listens to him an trusts him, he is in command of a thousand men and so on. And just overall awesome.

I don't think, finding a woman is the problem. I also don't think Kaladin will marry for political reasons. He values his freedom too highly to bond with a woman he has no feelings for. He is quite stubborn, and I think he will rather stay alone. Also, pure political marriage is boring plot-wise. How will it serve Kaladin character progression?

So we know, that after Shallan read Mraize’s letter, Pattern said: “Secrets. There are lies in this letter.” I wanted to figure out what exactly could those lies be. I assume those are “meaningful” lies, not incorrect wording or something like that, but a deliberate attempt to tell Shallan something wrong, that can lead her the wrong way. I also assume that Pattern isn’t an ultimate detector of lies just because they are lies. He just sees patterns in all things, so he sees some misconnections and illogical statements, that’s why he says there are lies in the letter. I also don’t think that “lies” are similar to “hiding something”. So my assumption is that the lies in this letter are major and intentional.

So, here is the whole letter (spoilered for length).

TLDR:

1. Sons on Honor want to bring Desolations and Heralds back. That’s obviously the truth, as stated in text and by WoBs.
2. Skybreakers want to prevent the Desolations. That’s obviously the truth too.
3. Heralds cannot be viewed as allies. There was an opinion somewhere on this forum, that this statement might be lies, but I disagree. All Heralds have different goals and have different states of mind - whos ally can Jezrien be, for example (he was alive when the letter was written)? Ash doesn’t seem to care too. Nale is an enemy to team Honor, others are playing their own games too. So, I think this thesis is also the truth.
4. Shallan’s mother was involved with Skybreakers. This could be the lie, but I don’t think it is. It looks logical and makes sense. But if we imagine it was a lie - why mention it in the first place? What goal is he accomplishing by telling this lie to Shallan? I struggle to come up with an idea.
5. Helaran was involved with Skybreakers. And this is the one I think is the lie. I will explain my PoV below.

 

This Skybreakers reveal makes absolutely no sense to me. There are a lot contradictions to the facts we know so far. Let’s analyze this reveal from a logical standpoint. I will list all the details or statements, that I find doubtful or weird, provide them all with all possible explanations I can see, and try to disprove them:

1. Helaran’s Shardblade.

   a). The Shardblade is alive.

        i) The Shardblade is Helaran’s spren. If his Shardblade comes from his spren, then he must be at least 3rd level Skybreaker (which actually already is a lie, because the letter says he wanted to prove himself worthy of a spren bond), and in this case a 3rd level Skybreaker managed to get killed with a single face blow of a common spear, not using a single surge before his death. Did he forget to take infused spheres with him?

        ii). The Shardblade is other Radiant’s spren. If some other Radiant had borrowed Helaran his Shardblade, why didn’t they summon that Shardblade back after Helaran’s death?

    b). The Shardblade is dead. If Helaran isn’t bonded to a spren, as the letter itself states, then his Shardblade must be dead. This is the most likely case, if Skybreakers reveal is true. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. Why would Knights Radiant order keep a dead Shardblade? Why give it to a potential member of the order or whomever else? They have a lot of members of 3+ level wielding living Blades that can do such kind of job much more effectively. Why would Skybreakers need a Shardbearer wielding specifically dead Blade for any kind of job? The only possible reason for that could be if they needed to kill someone, who hasn’t committed any crimes, so this action wouldn’t damage their bonds. But wouldn’t it? If they don’t do it themselves but order someone else to do it, are their spren OK with that? All right, if giving an order to kill an innocent doesn’t damage the bond, why don’t they exploit their 3rd Oath, so that several 3rd level Skybreakers swear to follow Nale’s judgement, like Szeth sworn to follow Dalinar, and everyone wins? Nale’s bond is fine, as long as he doesn’t take frags for himself, members’ bonds are fine too, as they follow the chosen source of law. There was also an opinion somewhere on this forum, that Nale gave him the Blade to prevent him from bonding a spren. Again, doesn’t make sense. If Nale doesn’t want Helaran to bond a spren, why not just kill him? Well, you would say Helaran didn’t commit any crimes. But what does he do with his Shardblade then? If he never kills innocent people with his Shardblade, then why can’t he be replaced by a 3^rd level Skybreaker, that can do absolutely the same more effectively? And if Helaran has ever killed an innocent man with his Blade, then Nale easily can just kill him and take his Blade back. And then give it to the next potential Surgebinder to lure him into the same trap.

2. Nale was impressed by Helaran. And here I want to know why. Because I am not impressed by Helaran yet. I know that Shallan thinks very well of him, but what did he do? I am not going to judge his actions or whatever, I just want to know, how could Helaran impress the Herald of Justice, that he had to recruit him to the Knights Radiant order by “display of great power and Shards”? All right, we don’t know what he did, but we have some of his quotes:

Quote

“We can’t have vengeance yet,” Helaran said softly. “Balat can’t lead the house, and I must be away. Soon, though.”

Quote

 “There are more important things in this world,” Helaran said. “More important even than you and your crimes.”

Quote

“You are a vile corruption upon this house,” Helaran said. “I should shove this through your chest. To do so would be a mercy.”

Quote

 

“Helaran…” The passion seemed to have bled from Father, like the color from his face, which had gone stark white. “You don’t know what you think you know. Your mother—”

“I will not listen to your lies,” Helaran said, rotating his wrist, twisting the sword in his hand, point still against Father’s chest. “So easy.”

 

Quote

 “You speak now?” Helaran said. “To defend him?” He laughed. A wild bark of a noise. He whipped the sword away from Father’s chest.

Quote

 “Farewell, Father,” Helaran said, turning and striding from the room. “Try not to ruin too much while I’m gone. I will come back periodically to check.” His voice echoed in the hallway outside as he left.

He doesn’t speak about justice, he doesn’t listen to Lin’s explanations, he doesn’t seem to be rational and willing to do the right thing from the perspective of law. He speaks about vengeance, he is angry, he laughs, barks, summons his Shardblade and so on. He also says, that there are things, that are more important than his father’s crimes. Could something be more important than a crime to a Skybreaker? I don’t know, how this kind of behavior could have impressed Nale.

3. The timeline. The above quoted scene is from 5.5 years ago, and Helaran already has a Shardblade in it. So he has presumably joined Skybreakers more than 4 years prior to his death. So the conclusions are:

            i) The man that has impressed Nale himself couldn’t prove being worthy of a spren bond during more than 4 years.

            ii) That same man was 4 years a Shardbearer. Kaladin was 4 years a spearman. Blade and Plate are much more powerful weapons than a common spear. Still, Helaran died to Kaladin, given the same amount of time for training. Helaran has impressed Nale?

4. The whole point of proving worthy of a spren bond. As I understood from the text, wielding a dead Blade prevents one from bonding a spren. Also, I think that proving yourself worthy of bonding a highspren by killing 20 innocent people just passing by is not a terribly good decision. Well, all right, most of them attacked him, so it could count as self defence, but what did Cenn do? He was only 15, and Helaran trampled him with his horse. And by the way, was his horse also given to him by Skybreakers?

5. Some quotes about his business.

Quote

 “You have news of my brother Helaran.”

The messenger nodded. “He is a very determined young man.”

“Where is he?”

“Doing things he finds very important. I would fault him for it, as I find nothing more frightening than a man trying to do what he has decided is important. Very little in the world has ever gone astray—at least on a grand scale—because a person decided to be frivolous.”

“He is well, though?” she asked.

“Well enough. The message for your father was that he has eyes nearby, and is watching.”

It sounds strange to me, that Hoid could have said “doing things he finds very important” about being a member of Knights Radiant. I would read this as “playing his toys” or something like that. It’s just a strange wording, to me. I would say that it’s more likely be worded as “becoming someone” or “having an important mission” or something like that.

And also it is strange, that Helaran has eyes, watching Lin. Would he have them, if he was a Skybreaker acolyte? All right, maybe Skybreakers would be interested in Lin’s crimes, but how wouldn’t they then notice Shallan and finish her mother’s job? And if Helaran truly thought Skybreakers’ mission important, wouldn’t he then tried to finish it too? Also, at this point of story Helaran is in Alethkar. Other times they mention his whereabouts they are in Jah Keved - Northgrip and Valath. Considering that Skybreakers’ fortress is in Purelake, it is strange, how far he is always from there.

Another quote from Helaran himself:

Quote

“We have an important work to do,” Helaran said, turning and striding to Shallan. He laid a hand fondly on her shoulder. He continued more softly. “I will tell you of it someday, Sister. It is good to hear your voice again before I leave.”

He also says that it’s a “work to do”. So it feels like this is the work that can be finished, not an ongoing process of eliminating Surgebinders and progressing as a KR. And notice also that he uses the pronoun “we”, and says that he will tell Shallan about it someday. Skybreakers don’t seem like a team doing the same job to me, and I also don’t think he would like to tell Shallan, that he is one of the Lost Radiants, killing other potential Lost Radiants to prevent the return of the Desolations.

So, that’s my list of questions to Mraize, if you could say so.

Well, if Helaran wasn’t a Skybreaker, then who? Either the Ghostbloods or the Diagram member.

I personally think the Diagram makes more sense, but the Ghostbloods would be interesting too. I really don’t know, so would be nice if you could provide your opinions on the matter. I will share my thoughts on this.

The Diagram

Pros:

It would perfectly explain the horse and the Shards, also his statements of “we have an important work to do” – it looks very much like how Moash and Graves worded their motives, and also Hoid’s “does things he finds important”, which could be explained as “kid playing revolution”. We also know that Mr T knew about Helaran:

Quote

Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said.

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.

(btw, I think it’s not about teaching Shallan surgebinding, but about teaching her use her Shardblade)

 Another interesting thing to me is that “Patriots” chapter, in which Kaladin meets Graves follows the chapter in which Hoid tells Shallan about Helaran. It was 3.5 years ago, and then:

Quote

 “Have you any idea the kinds of policies he put into place before Dalinar got him under control?” Danlan asked. “I spent the last three years in Kholinar helping the clerks there sort through the mess he made of the royal codes. There was a time when he’d sign practically anything into law if he was cajoled the right way.”

So we have a chapter, that states that Helaran was in Alethkar 3.5 years ago, and in the next chapter Danlan says she was in Kholinar 3 years ago, and she is a member of the Diagram.

Cons:

It’s still not clear, why Mraize would lie to cover up the Diagram. My assumption is that Mraize’s main bounty is information, and he just doesn’t want to give away a huge chunk of it, when he can give away almost nothing, because Shallan will discover the Skybreakers soon anyway from Szeth/Lift. Also, no clear reason for the Diagram to kill Amaram.

The Ghostbloods

Pros:

Explains why Mraize lies to Shallan about it. Interesting option plot-wise, because it could be that Ghostbloods had sent Helaran to his death on purpose, if they were aware of Kaladin (they were aware of Tien, so we can assume the same about Kaladin).

Cons:

The assault was quite dumb for the Ghostbloods. Doesn’t explain the horse and the Shards. Lin was a member too, and he ordered Helaran’s assassination.

I would like to hear your opinions on the matter, but I regarding the Ghostbloods I would very much appreciate if you tried to avoid spoilers from the other Cosmere books, as I haven't yet read them. I understand, that the Ghostbloods are Cosmere aware guys, but I'm not.

Storms, mate, I've logged in just to upvote your post and say how much I love it. You made my day!

I’m just going to leave the list of my predictions here to have something to quote after I read the 4th book.

I don’t care much about realmatics. I appreciate it a lot, as it provides the characters with believable and somewhat predictable environment, which contributes to the overall sense of reality to the story, I’m just not interested in it so much in the first place. What I’m interested in are characters, their progression, and their relationships with each other, as it is something I can use for my own progression as a person. That's also something I feel I can predict, because the laws of psychology should remain the same even in a fantasy book, otherwise it's not worth reading.

1. Shadolin will not survive. Details spoilered for length.

2. Kaladin will marry Jasnah, but the journey will not be simple and straight. Details spoilered for length.

3. Adolin will start his journey to the Dark Side. Details spoilered for length.

4. Shallan will hit the rock bottom to realize that she has to deal with her problems on her own. Details spoilered for length.

5. Szeth will be awesome. As always. I won't provide any details, because it's obvious

7 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

With regard to Adolin and Shallan having limited interests in common, that's a consequence of their society and it's strict disparate gender roles, rather than an inherent issue with their relationship. And Adolin has been shown to be very enthusiastic about Shallan's drawings.  And they do spend time together chatting and things, and they get along very well during those times.

According to this logic, no marriage on Roshar can be successful, because males and females share different social roles.

Adolin is very enthusiastic about her drawings because he asked her to show them and said they are good? Well, then she can marry almost any man or woman on Roshar, because everyone thinks they are good and also I think a lot of people would ask her to show them. Kaladin and Jasnah did too, so Shalladojasnahdin confirmed?

They spend time together chatting because they are storming betrothed. She also has another interests in getting closer to him - she needs to get to Navani in WoR to find Urithiru, she needs to protect her brothers. And despite them spending loads of time together chatting, Adolin still fails to comfort her any other ways than by physical contact - hugging, rubbing her shoulders or whatever. Physical contact calms almost everyone. My colleague rubs my shoulders sometimes just because she likes and wants to do it, and it is very comforting, but it doesn't mean I'm in love with her (I'm a straight woman). Kaladin, however, doesn't have an access to Shallan's body like Adolin does, but still manages to find the right words or smile, when she needs them, as we can see after her failed palace infiltration attempt. They have 3 (three!) dialogues in OB in total. Two of them are good in whole, and the third one started with mutual discussion of spren and Shallan's theories about them (Adolin just skipped her spren drawings in her sketchpad and went straight to her drawings of people and surely himself), and Shallan went excited during that part. Then they went to a pun exchange, which made them both feel better and shown, that that's another thing they have in common - they love wordplay. And only then, yes, they started discussing their mental problems, and that went wrong. But you, people, just take this last part and prefer to ignore everything else, but for Adolin you are ready to even imagine things, just to make him "be good for her". But I agree, he is good for her. She has learn on a negative pattern first.

And about "Adolin is downplaying himself. Is it how he is downplaying himself?

Quote

“What is she doing here?” Kaladin asked.

“Come to watch me while I spar, presumably,” Adolin said. “I usually have to kick them out.”

“Them?”

“You know. Girls who want to gawk at me while I fight. I wouldn’t mind, but if we allowed it, they’d clog the entire grounds every time I came. Nobody would be able to get any sparring done.”

Or maybe this?

Quote

“I suppose,” Adolin said. “There was one run a few months back where I seized the chrysalis basically by myself. You see, Father and I, we would usually jump the chasm first and clear the way for the bridges.”

“Isn’t that dangerous?” Shallan asked, dutifully looking at him with widened eyes.

“Yes, but we’re Shardbearers. We have strength and power granted by the Almighty. It’s a great responsibility, and it’s our duty to use it for the protection of our men. We save hundreds of lives by going across first. Lets us lead the army, firsthand.”

Or this?

Quote

“That was the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever done,” Adolin said. “Oh, wow… Ha! I think I just won three full suits of Plate and two Blades, bridgeboy. Here, help me get this armor off.”

Or this?

Quote

“We’ll see,” Dalinar said. “This is only one part of what we will do, the smaller part—but also the most visible part. Adolin, everyone tells me how good you are at dueling, and you have pestered me incessantly to relax my prohibition. There are thirty Shardbearers in the army, not counting our own. Can you defeat that many men?”

“Can I?” Adolin said, grinning. “I’ll do it without breaking a sweat, so long as I can start with Sadeas himself.”

Nah. He only starts "downplaying himself" when he sees that "storming bridgeboy" has earned Radiance and proved himself a hero multile times, and poor little Adolin didn't get his piece of pie.

All right, let me sum it up for you, comrades. Adolin will be just fine. He will revive Maya and be a KR, his marriage will be happy and shining, his murder of Sadeas will cause no ramifications, his lack of responsibility, inability to hold his temper, and all his previous relationship problems will just magically disappear.

This is going to be a very interesting read. And the moral of this tale will be "manage to be born a handsome rich prince, and everything will drop to you on its own; murder everyone you don't like, and as far as you feel no remorse you will be fine".

Maybe Adolin will get bored of Shallan and murder her too? She is difficult and confusing to read anyway, and she prevents Adolin from having fun with much more interesting characters like May Aladar.

I think, Adolin will join Odium, he is a perfect candidate for that. I think, he would get punished for Sadeas' murder and, as he doesn't regret what he did, he would be blaming others for this, just like Moash was. "It's not my fault". Later on Odium would contact him and reveal him the truth about his father, so Adolin's journey to the Dark Side would be complete. Not sure, tho, it would all happen in SA4. 

6 hours ago, agrabes said:

I think to me, more disappointing than the way the arc generally went was Kaladin's final decision making at the end.  Adolin's response felt realistic and in character - "She's interested in another guy, let me step aside."  Shallan's actions felt realistic - she wanted to be with the only guy she'd had actual romantic interactions with (from her end).  She was also trying to preserve her commitments and her engagement even if she does feel some attraction to Kaladin.  Kaladin's final response felt like a Deus Ex Machina "She chose the other guy and even though I've always been interested in her romantically for very organic reasons, I've decided I actually never had any interest and am 100% over it immediately."  Sanderson's comments regarding love triangles in general makes me think he believes (or did at least once believe) that he wrapped this up neatly so that the readers didn't have to deal with the hassle of a love triangle.  I get that perspective and there are a lot of people who dislike those kinds of plots.  I'm OK with that, but I think the solution that would make this feel much more organic was to simply have Kaladin's last scene make it clear he's accepted that Shallan and Adolin are together, but that he's still not totally OK with it - like a scene where he's faking being happy for them but inside is sad.  Then, he slowly comes to terms with it over the next book or two with maybe one or two minor scenes that it's referenced.

Let me disagree with you here. Kaladin's reaction very well correlates with his character, and it also opposes Adolin's treatment of Shallan. Adolin said "I will let him have you". Kaladin said "She made her choice". Adolin treats her as an object, Kaladin treats her as a subject. That's why Kaladin is, as you say, "immediately over". Because he understands, that Shallan has her free will, and he has no power over it. He can't change her desicion, so all he has to do - deal with it. It's absolutely healthy - to treat someone else's will like a weather. If it's raining outside, there's nothing you can do about it, just change your plans and not go for a walk.

There is also a role of his overall treatment of himself as someone, who doesn't deserve happiness. When he was in prison, he thought, that Dalinar and B4 hate him and want to get rid of him. When he was going back to Hearthstone he was thinking that his parents won't want to see him, because he failed to protect Tien. So it's absolutely natural, that he thinks he doesn't deserve to be loved by Shallan neither. He absolutely genuinely thinks that he is worse for her. So being sad inside while they are happy would be OOC and unnatural. Why should you be sad, if someone else received something good? Being sad in this situation equals being selfish. It is the same like "oh, he got a girl I wanted, I'm sad", it the same as thinking, that he actually deserved that girl, but storming Adolin was more lucky. If you ever attained any competition, and lost it to someone you admit is much better than you and really deserved victory, you don't feel sad about it. You will feel sad only if you think, that his victory was somehow unfair, and you deserved it more.

I also don't believe that he "decided that he never had any feelings". That's not what he thinks, that's what he says to Syl. I think I have to make it my forum signature: "What character says does not equal what character thinks" You have to take into account the context and the previous situations of this character. For example, previous dialogues with Syl about Shallan. Here is the post I wrote about it some time ago, I explain my thoughts about this Kaladin's "revelation" there. I would like to add, that since then I've also noticed, that all three dialogues with Syl contained two reasons from Kaladin's side. The first reason was always the true reason, the second one was always the fake one, which he brought only to end the conversation he didn't want to continue. In the first dialogue he said "she is betrothed" (true reason), then "she is lighteyes" (fake reason). Second dialogue - "I have my bridge crew" (true reason), "she brought her maid to make her hair" (fake reason). Third dialogue - "she made her choice" (true reason), "I didn't love her" (fake reason).

There is much more to all those romantic arcs, and I'm 100% convinced it's not over. It won't be a "triangle" anymore, though. But the topic is "what your disappointment was" regarding to what's written to the moment, and not what will happen in the future. So I am indeed disappointed by how Shalladin was swept under the rug. I also was disappointed by all this Shallan's reasoning and especially with "bad taste in men". It's such an insult for Kaladin, I was very angry at her at this point. And I also very much agree with @SSSoto that overall idea of a woman needing a man to be healthy and happy is crem. Especially I don't like, when the same people say "Shallan needed Adolin to be happy" and "Jasnah doesn't need a man, she doesn't want to be dependent".

3 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes. I just tried to think what Sanderson will write...knowing Sanderson. If I remember correctly, he said somewhere that he doesn't find Adolin's actions to be dark.

Well, if the theory of "Dark Adolin" can distract you from your gloomy thoughts about Dalinar's fate and make you feel better, I would gladly tell you my thoughts on it in PM. Otherwise too many other people here can feel bad, and this is also possibly offtopic.

2 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Really? He probaby doesn't fit, at least by Sanderson's standards (and he's the author, so his views are only views that matter).

Well, I think he fits perfectly. We are discussing our personal assumptions here, right?

Just now, LerasiumMistborn said:

Why?

It may be funny, but this is exactly what I think will happen (Adolin too). No jokes.

Because Adolin will join the Dark Side and die. This is exactly what I think will happen. No jokes.