Ahriman

I don't think so, seeing as I've gotten the implication that he was named Truthless because he said he was bonding a spren. But could the Shin have access to a diffferent magic system? The phrasing there makes it sound like he's listing the Shin as equivalent to the Knights Radiant and the Voidbringers.

I reread his stuff for the same reason, but there are some of his books I can't reread. It's mostly a humour thing, I just have a very different sense of humour than he usually does and it can grate on rereads. I reread Jordan a lot though, it's the only series I have on audiobook. I can jump into any given Wheel of Time book and orient myself quickly, because I spent so much time reading them when I was a teenager. With both authors it's amazing to see what they weave in, and you can learn a lot about how to tell a story.

We do know that, because Taravangian's mental state has only been so erratic for a few years. I think at some point they mention he had his faked illness shortly after the assassination. I always assumed Cultivation set up the Diagram. I neither know nor care if that's good or bad, but it will be fun to watch.

Was that confirmed? I know she thinks she met the Nightwatcher, and may have met both of them the way Dalinar did, which would mean that just asking if she met the Nightwatcher could be answered with a yes. I remember her mentioning that Dalinar reminded her of the spren that had given her her wish though, and the Nightwatcher didn't really touch him.

We're all just repeating ourselves at this point, and it's clear that nothing is going to change. My final comment is that no matter how much you insist that the actions taken at the Rift are ignored or treated like they aren't a big deal, the fact remains that they are a big deal, unless I hallucinated the part where Dalinar had a complete breakdown when he remembered what happened. And as far as unpersuasive arguments go, I can't top claiming that Sanderson writing his story the way he wants is a bad thing.

I've never paid much attention to other people's feelings on the matter, but I dislike Moash more than anyone else because he's just as whiny and self righteous as Kaladin without any of the redeeming qualities. My hope is for a good part of the series to consist of those two torturing each other.

You could hypothetically have a survivor as a main character later, but there are already a lot of main characters, and I'm pretty sure there's a plan for each flashback sequence already. And it doesn't need the perspective of a victim to make readers feel that it was a horrible crime. I know you've said you feel like it's being completely ignored, but plenty of people here have shared their reactions to it and pointed out that it isn't being ignored, and the next book will likely deal with major consequences of it. Why judge a story before it's done? You keep bringing up Dalinar not killing the kid, almost like it was wrong of Sanderson to not tell the audience. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting you, but I don't see where you're coming from on that. It's just Sanderson being good at suspense, and it has an impact when we find out the truth. Part of that impact is to make his massacre more intense. And again, nobody is ignoring it. I have a hard time believing it will be treated as lightly as Adolin's murder of Sadeas. I'm still not sure why you're making judgements based on a plot that has yet to be resolved. As far as Dalinar being indispensable, he is. Whether or not the author could turn around and kill him off is irrelevant, and being indespensable to the war effort doesn't mean he can't die anyway, but there would be very few people who wanted to win against Odium who would sanction any action against him. I could see Taravangian manufacturing a survivor and presenting the same situation you have, as a way to try to turn them against him and undermine the alliance. Keeping him around wouldn't be a decision based on morality, but on practicality, since not being destroyed by a vengeful god is more important than enacting punishment on one man. Dalinar is the only one of them who seems to really understand the struggle against Odium, because he's the only one who's met him. Besides, putting him in the position he has doesn't mean he's considered exceptionally moral, it just means his current values align more with a specific Shard. Shards aren't necessarily good or evil, so why should anyone being a Shard's champion inherently involve a moral assessment of their character?

Nobody really gets absolution in this. I had no sympathy for him, but any culpability of his isn't important now. And given that Odium's whole thing is getting into people's heads by having them foist blame onto others, I just don't see a point in assigning blame. Especially with him being dead and all.

1. I think we can all agree that there is no objective measure of self-redemption. Given that, many, if not most people find repentance to be the most important part of it. That's clearly present. 2. A scene from the perspective of a victim during the fire wouldn't have worked with the flashback format, since we were reading things as Dalinar was remembering them, and he wouldn't have anyone else's memories. And many people, including me, were disturbed by his actions, but those don't immediately disqualify him from changing. I'm curious what you think the line is between redeemable and irredeemable. I know that's a loaded question, and probably impossible to answer, but what's the worst possible thing that you would be willing to forgive him for having done instead of that, assuming everything else from the books was the same? 3. No arguments here, shifting the blame means nothing. The whole point is that it was his failt. 4. As people have already said, plenty of readers would be against executing Dalinar. I would be, for several reasons. That would be nothing but revenge, and it would be incredibly shortsighted to even attempt. Dalinar is the head of the good guys because he's the only one who can lead them. Sanderson didn't sweep anything under the rug, we've seen the feelings of other leaders and soldiers who were with him at the Rift, and we'll likely see reactions in the next book. But Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, knows how to run a war, and at this point basically exists to unify people. None of his allies in their right minds would want him removed, and definitely not executed. More importantly, he doesn't see himself as redeemed or completely absolved. Someone would, in your hypothetical, probably have to talk him out of submitting to the execution, because he would feel compelled to atone directly and that would cripple the war effort. The good guys don't have to be perfect, or even that good. They just have to be the people that are needed right now, doing the things that are needed. And I certainly wouldn't say Sanderson messed anything up by doing it this way. He's going to write his books however he wants. I don't think the parts I disagree with are mistakes.

I don't mind rebuilding an order or ideal, but I really am tired of people, entities, whatever you want to call them not staying dead. I don't think it's entirely about resurrecting the old ways though, this is a world that has made too much progress for that to be possible. Things are going to change, and I expect that even if they take the old names and something of the structure, they will be more something new than they will be the old orders. I'd be surprised if Sanderson played the old fantasy trope of everything ancient being better, especially since he's had Taln point out that giving Roshar time to progress and build is imporant. But this has gotten pretty far off topic. In regards to dead spren, Sanderson will (and should) do what he wants and I'll enjoy most of what he does regardless.

I know, but it would still essentially be resurrection, which I don't have much patience for in fiction.

I don't want it to happen at all. Let him keep a blade that's almost conscious if he must, but I have no interest in seeing anyone come back from the dead. I also don't want Adolin to be anything approaching a Knight Radiant.

Szeth did choose to do that. At any point, he could have just decided to walk away. It would have been hard for him, and it would have flown in the face of his culture, but he was still choosing to do horrible things that also flew in the face of his cultural values. I don't think he's any less redeemable than anyone else, but he is responsible for his own actions and I'm sure he'll deal with the consequences in some way. That's a very good point, and I'm not sure why I haven't heard it before. I find it interesting that even though I don't believe anything makes you completely irredeemable, I find the idea of such an absolute good action to be even more ridiculous. It might just be that good is a difficult concept to define, while we have an instinctive response to abhorrent actions, but the argument is definitely logical. I'm going to use that from now on.

This is very true, speaking from my own experience as a writer as well as my own religious beliefs. You give them a redemption arc if it will make the story better, and this one certainly has. More accurately, if Dalinar didn't have this redemption arc we wouldn't have much of a story at all. Now, one of the most important parts of a good redemption arc, in my opinion at least, is dealing with and accepting the consequences of your actions. If you have a repentant serial killer, for instance, he will still go to jail without resisting. Dalinar faces no legal consequences like that, however, because he committed no crimes. It was a war, and it was an Alethi war, sanctioned by the state under Alethi laws. It wasn't a war crime, because those don't exist in that world. It's a fairly new concept in our own world, not without its own brutality, and even here it's pretty subjective who gets charged. As for the religious part of my statement, which I think is fairly close to the beliefs Sanderson's religion has on the matter, no character inherently deserves redemption because no person ever deserves redemption. But the fact that nobody deserves redemption doesn't stop it from being given out to those who seek it, which is what we see an example of. If my family had been at the Rift I might not be able to forgive Dalinar personally, but that wouldn't affect his own redemption from that point of view. It would be my personal struggle. I think what makes this one of the best redemption arcs I've seen in fiction is that it generates discussions like this. We definitely wouldn't have as many people on his side if we had started with his violent, drunken, explosive temper. Maybe another question we could ask ourselves is if Sanderson fooled us by showing us the new noble Dalinar, seeking after honour and truth, or if he did us a favour by letting us look at the man without regard to his actions earlier in life.

Personally, I have no problem with Dalinar's narrative. That's because I categorically reject the idea of anyone being irredeemable. However, I suspect his kids would have a problem with it, despite Alethi culture supporting his actions and the truth only being a little different than what they were told. Nobody likes being deceived, least of all important people who are regularly privy to state secrets. And when people's mothers' deaths are involved, they wont think objectively, because of course they love their mothers. Given that Adolin has had a fairly unhealthy obsession with making his father proud of him, I can see that really shattering his respect for a while. Not forever, but maybe for a book. Come to think of it, finding out about all Shallan's secrets too could give the guy some serious trust issues.

I hadn't thought of that. I looked it up and the feminine form of the title is Ba'alah. That seems very similar to me, but there could be something else.

Could Ba-Ado-Mishram be from Ba'al? Also, why did I only just notice that the more intelligent an Unmade is, the more hyphens they get?

I don't know if it's been confirmed or not, but I'm 100% certain he included that in the book. I'm sure that he'll tell his family and inner circle ahead of time, cause you don't make your kid hear about that in the news, but he wants to clear the air. Dalinar doesn't go for half measures. And yes, I'm excited to see the impact it has.

No such thing as enough. I'd be so bored if he ever stopped suffering.

Not a problem. I didn't know that about Spensa or Ym, mostly because I can't remember who Ym is at the moment. It's good to know that attracting multiple spren is confirmed to be possible, so I appreciate that. Onto the original topic, I also find the idea of someone else beating Kaladin to the fourth oath increasingly likely. Although part of me just wants to see Kaladin suffer a little extra.

That's pretty much what I figured you meant, although I wonder if Persons A and B would really end up in the same order. Do knights have to end up in the order that most matches their personalities, or is that just more convenient?

With Szeth, I got the feeling that he was kind of a Skybreaker at heart already, so some of the oaths were basically just a formality, affirming what he'd already decided. It probably does depend on the order, though. I would expect Bondsmiths, for instance, to be more likely to reach the fifth oath because there are fewer of them and their spren are a bigger deal. Maybe some spren are more selective about picking someone who can swear all the oaths. After all, I'm sure there were plenty of Knights Radiant who were just average and probably stayed at the third oath, maybe eventually hit oath four. Joyful cruelty is how I make most of my decisions, but I actually think it would be interesting. Kaladin is always pushing himself, and up until now has been pretty much the leader of whatever pack he's in. I'd like to see him deal with the fact that sometimes, even if you're competent or full of potential, other people will get farther than you, even if you always thought you would be ahead of them. Accepting that, and everything that goes with it, could even lead him to reach the fourth oath.

I'm a big fan of bad things happening to Kaladin, so I'd be down for him staying with the third oath forever, or at least for a very long time. I'd like to see Teft end up surpassing him.

What if Kaladin never swears it at all? None of the Skybreakers other than Nale have reached the fifth oath in hundreds of years, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that in most orders, a lot of people don't get to the fourth or fifth oaths. I rather like the idea of Kaladin holding himself back and being surpassed by the people he thought he was leading.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mean Cultivation. I don't recall creationism being discussed, at least not with the term "creationism." I know Vorinism is creationist, because they talk about the Almighty, who is Honor, creating things. Presumably most of the other religions are as well, but I'm not sure. Cultivation, on the other hand, pretty much meets the description you've given. And she and Wit are most definitely two different people. Incidentally, have you read any other books by Sanderson? Discussions about Cultivation and the other Shards like her are a lot easier, or at least different, if you're more Cosmere aware.