StarrFall

2 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

The closer something is to being alive, the less breaths it takes to awaken. To my knowledge though, the same thing doesn't apply to the color drain.

Agreed

16 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I feel like there are references to draining color from inorganic sources like stone, can't remember exactly though, and can't check my book at the minute.

I'm 99% positive that Suesbron drained the color from everything in his vicinity once Lightsong healed him and he was able to Awaken.  I do recall "Tears of Edgli" flowers being a superior source of color for Awakening, but I believe that was more about them being physical manifestations of Endowment as opposed to being organic.

That said, I'm fairly positive being organic does make an object easier to Awaken: Vasher uses an eyelash as a focus to awaken a piece of cloth it was attached to (or some such) very early on in the book, and the justification given is that it takes fewer Breaths to awaken organic matter than it does inorganic matter.

2 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

But what about the colors of pure elements. If you took the color of a gold coin what would remain.

I'd be very curious to know the answer to this.  I think it would definitely tell us whether the key factor for Awakening is perception of color or the actual material and how it absorbs/reflects light.  Is the material the "color" is sourced from actually transformed (similarly to Soulcasting) into a different material that doesn't absorb/reflect light in the same way, or is only the cognitive definition altered so that it no longer represents the physical material exactly (similar to Forging but more permanent, and assuming the cognitive definition of an object is what is responsible for how that material is perceived)?

3 hours ago, CoryP.1981 said:

If ther's anyone with suggestions on altering the order any, please let me know. I have all the books up to TWoK. I actually just got a signed copy of it for my birthday (gotta love my wife, lol). 

That will totally work. There are a few of the smaller ones where order isnt quite as important, but I see no reason to change it up. Id just toss White Sand 2 (which my wife just bought me , hi 5) in there after White Sand 1 and you are set. 

You made it through WoT (also an incredible series and how I found Sanderson as well) so you obviously have a substantial attention span and Im confident you will tear these up quickly, lol! 

Happy reading!

Welcome to the party!  You have a good healthy start on the cosmere, but I would say it is helpful to get as caught up as possible before investigating inter-cosmere connections too deeply as there are a lot of spoilers, depending on where you are looking.  That said, each part of the forum (and the books for that matter) usually display what spoilers are contained, so if you have any questions on a good order to read then post it and someone will surely help you out there in short order

I'm fairly sure there is at least one thread on reading order but duty calls so i'll have to leave that to someone else.

Happy reading!

@Cavebear, welcome to the party!  You have an insane amount of fun in store, and once you catch up you should join the fun in the forums in discussing how it all works (lots of spoilers in there so tread lightly for now).  The cosmere BS has created is immense, beautifully detailed, and runs on a system of physics that are cohesive and consistent.  I like to think of it more as alternate reality as opposed fantasy (though that is, of course, nonsense).

Happy listening!  Kramer/Reading are incredible narrators and really bring the stories to life

@Calderis, you are a living library yourself.  Thanks for connecting the dots there!

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This is all true, but there is an additional limitation. Memories stored in copper need to be retrieved, used and then stored again as quickly as possible. For some reason, memories pulled out of a coppermind deteriorate rapidly. You want to store them again as quickly as you can to preserve the knowledge. 

What do you think about the "copying into multiple copperminds upon compounding" theory?  If that stands up, then there would be redundant copies that would/could negate the need to preserve the knowledge by putting back into the coppermind.

21 minutes ago, Servillius said:

If this was real, and you could store the ability to play piano into copper, you could have one person who can do everything.

You are correct about making a keyless metalmind, but copper can only store memories, not developed skills. You could store information on music theory and info on HOW to play the piano, but the experience and muscle memory involved would need to be developed by each individual. Would give you a definite leg up for getting started for sure, though. 

3 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

If Dysian Aimians are able to use medallions in this way, once Scadrial interacts with them in MBE4 information should be able to be communicated and distributed almost instantly.

Do Dysian's component cremlings need to report or are all aware of each other in real time?  If the latter (and assuming my theory on filling multiple copperminds is correct) then I'd say that you understated just how powerful this could be; there could be a single Dysian Aimian stationed (distributed?) on every colonized world in the Cosmere that could potentially relay incredibly complex messages in a heartbeat.  A living quantum spanreed that can communicate so much more than what a writing implement is capable of; a living Cosmere Service Bus, ha!  Would just need a good collection of double-copper twinborns to spread the messages once they arrive on each given world/ship.

Good call on that @Kal-Eldin

5 minutes ago, Kal-Eldin said:

As the use of Aluminum and Nicrosil medallions become more common in Scadrial, if copper compounding gave you the ability to store the same memory in multiple copperminds, then this could be used in great effect to share memories with large amounts of people. I imagine this skill would be greatly valued at in-world universities, or places such as Silverlight. 

Agreed. Could provide the foundation for the era 3 Scadrial library.  The upside for the individual being they always have a fresh copy of their memories ready to go should their memories get a little hazy.

I'm not feeling super confident about what I said previously about the role of the spirit web in this, and I think I have an answer that is more consistent with compounding in general and is satisfactory to my mind (assuming my assumptions below don't make me an a$$): given that compounding will replicate Investiture to 8x the original amount, perhaps the memory can be replicated to 8 new copperminds upon compounding (instead of trying to cram all of that replicated signal into a single coppermind), one of which can then immediately be recalled into TLR's mind and the other 7 of which can be stored for future compounding, disaster recovery, or simply as a future refresher for TLR?

Another possible factor:

I'm unsure if compounding REQUIRES the compounder to fill a metalmind with the investiture being compounded, or if the compounded Investiture can be accessed directly without being piped into a metalmind first, but assuming it CAN be utilized directly then one could assume that compounding copper would make a very (8x) strong impression on the compounder's mind.  This could be a contributing factor to the quality of TLR's memories.

Regardless, even if TLR only recalled the memories via tapping the copper (instead of burning/compounding), I would suspect that the initial memory stored would have a lot more detail by virtue of TLR's constant tapping of Zinc and burning of Tin, and the redundant copperminds would allow TLR to nab a fresh copy of all memories stored, with absolutely no degradation whatsoever, whenever he wishes.

Vasher + 1

He doesn't "do people" very well but he is learned and his heart is in the right place.  Mostly, I dig his grumpy demeanor and efficiency/proficiency/general badassery with with his craft.  Expecting he will be an interesting and enlightening character to follow throughout the Cosmere.

Color is preferential reflection of light, and colored objects used for awakening are no longer perceived as having color post awakening. As such, Im thinking that means light has nothing to do with Awakening at all.  Perhaps the fuel for Awkening is actually the source object’s cognitive definition of its’ color? I’m thinking Awakening changes that cognitive definition similarly to the way Soulcasting does, but as a consequence as opposed to a goal. I know Soulcasting requires Investiture to convince the object to change, and perhaps interaction with the Breath used serves that function in some way; the more Breath involved, the more color the object can be convinced to relinquish.

If I recall correctly, “Tears of Edgli” (ToE) make for a superior source for Awakening, and objects affiliated with Shard investiture have a strong presence in the cognitive realm (thinking metals on Scadrial). I’d be curious to see if objects dyed using ToE appear more strongly in the CR; might be a good indicator. 

9 hours ago, Yua999 said:

Edit: Just realized you can probably burn cadmium without using it allomantically.

Depending on what era we're talking (and availability of Cadmium), I'd probably burn a lot of it to Hoid out and rejoin society at a more interesting point: once it was space-faring .  Then I could do some world hopping the long way (long for anyone outside of my bubble anyway) without having to pack much oxygen or food.  The allomantic equivalent of cryo-sleep.

Double Cadmium would be cool.  I'd move to, or found, the Scadrial version of Atlantis.

Been off the forum for a while but this seems like a good one to jump back in on.  I'm spit-balling here myself, but:

1) Regarding the exceptional details TLR can recollect; perhaps that is a simple function of his filling a coppermind while compounding mental speed and burning Tin (providing enhanced senses and the ability to process them consciously)?  Presumably an enhanced mental capacity at the time of storage could affect the granularity of the memory "signal" stored (thinking analog vs digital).

2) Perhaps recalling a memory from a coppermind through compounding pins the memory to the compounder's spirit web (or some such) in addition to their physical brain, facilitating the indelible "super memory" theory (my favorite running theory at this point).

Edit for clarity: #1 makes the memory a "super memory" while #2 makes the "super memory" indelible.

Been reading your posts for weeks now, and thanks for the insightful questions!  I just grab popcorn and wait for discussion to unfold  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sazed had knowledge of Trell in his Coppermind before Ascending which would imply that Trell, whomever that may be, already had at least some limited presence on Scadrial prior to Era 1 (though it is not impossible that knowledge was brought by travelers through one of the Perpendicularities).  I've caught a lot of talk about how Era 2 happens around the same time as SA, and we know that Era 1 was ~300 years before Era 2, and I don't believe Cultivation had been on any Planet but Roshar for thousands of years prior to SA.

If that all stands up, I don't think Cultivation and Trell can be the same entities.

@Artemos, I haven't demo'd this thing yet (you bet I will when I can) but I have to give a tip of the hat for your thorough work here!  I've been working on a closed environment simulator/control system in my spare time for years (huge space dork), and I think I need to take a page out of your book and pick a facet and run with it to get started because your progress makes me feel ashamed of my lack thereof.  I VERY much look forward to digging into the math when I get home, though there are clearly others here way more knowledgeable about physics than I and I probably won't be of much help there.

11 hours ago, Quantus said:

I would have agreed but I just did a google search for Steam powered motorcycles and some of the designs are actually pretty decent looking

Touche

7 hours ago, amflare said:

Its possible. But this WoB says that that is more a result of savantism than an intrinsic ability of the metal.

Good call there, I think that's a firm no on that front then.  At least, it's enough of a no that it wouldn't make sense to design around it  

11 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

You could also house the ettmetal inside a aluminum box with a smaller tunnel pointed towards the gear to act as a directional control. Assuming aluminum blocks the investiture/magnetism, then only one side of the gear would be pushed on. This would also allow you to create the gear out of a stronger metal. Direction changing could occur by changing the gears attached to the main drive.

I'm guessing that would be way more expensive where rare materials are concerned, but certainly way more efficient too.

Side note to all, very happy to be here and to FINALLY be able to talk about this crap and have people not look at me cross-eyed.  The only friend I have reading the series is so far behind that I can't talk to him at all for fear of dropping spoilers.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Im not sure it would work (well) for more or less the same reasons that we cannot make a motor with just permanent magnets: you're going need some form of Switching in the system, some capability to change the direction (which is the limit of natural push/pullers that can only direct force toward or away from their center of gravity) or it will eventually just run down like all the best perpetual motion machines. 

Assuming that line of sight is in no way a factor, I’d agree 100% here. However:

Quote

So if you can do any kind of switching them you can just arrange the poles like we do with the various electro-magnetic motor styles today.

Assuming line of sight is a factor, I’d argue that that switching is inherent in the physical design.    

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I think a simpler solution would be closer to the steam piston-designs you've seen on old railroad engines, where the Steel and Iron (or just one and some spring-return device) are alternating a push/pull on a linear shaft and the machine design is what translates that to rotation.  Or even just allomantically compress a drive spring and make the rest of the system all cogworks

 

The wavelength of electricity is obviously a lot shorter/quicker than an Allomancer is likely able to pulse their Pushes or Pulls, and certainly more efficient then them just Pushing or Pulling on everything available, but Allomancers can also throw their full body weight into each push which would provide more torque directly.

Based on that logic, your suggestion here would almost certainly give a better energy conversion because those pistons could be close to human sized and push a whole lot more machinery. Tip of that hat on that call!

It just wouldn’t make for a very sleek motorcycle...

2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The airship the southern scadrialians used appears to use steel to turn the propellers, so there seems to be some gear spinning going on there. 

That mechanism is precisely what I'm trying to puzzle out, generically speaking.

7 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

So far any amount of aluminum has been capable of completely interfering with investiture usage. People on Scadrial era 2 wear thin plates of aluminum in there hats to effectively block out rioting/soothing.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum will add some interference, it's gonna depend on how thick the aluminum is. It's probably unfeasible. That is a viable concept, I don't think it's feasible on a gun barrel.

source

The egg design should mean that the ability to sense/push on the Allomantically-visible metal would change in an oscillating pattern as the wheel they are attached to rotates (see pic below).  With the "eggs" oriented in this way, the wheel should turn when a Push is applied to all visible lines (via Steel Bubble or direct focus). 

I still think that line of sight may be a factor based on the point about Aluminum hat lining and Brandon's statement on the concept being feasible (I don't THINK they are talking about plating the inside of a rifle with Aluminum).  If a large enough mass of Aluminum can COMPLETELY hide a ball of iron by line of sight (meaning Iron is exposed on one tip of the "egg" but can't be sensed when the opposite tip is presented to the Allomancer), then that would exponentially increase the engine's efficiency.  If an Allomancer can learn to pulse their Pushes/Pulls fast enough then that may not matter (meaning the Allomancer would only push on the strongest line as it comes around and releases as soon as the next egg is in position, but fast enough to do something meaningful, mechanically).  Vin was able to use ingots to fly across open ground, so who knows.

Feasible model for Allomantic Turbine? 

EDIT: Note that this image is showing in the "Steel Drive" configuration of the Turbine; the egg design and/or angle on which it is mounted would have to be tweaked to be optimized for an "Iron Drive" configuration.  Also, don't hate on my rough Paint!

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

If the aluminum was thin enough to push through, I don't think it would be strong enough to perform any task inside a motor.

If that be the case then I'm not sure the mechanism I had in mind could be powered by Iron.  That said it could still feasibly be driven by Steel as there would certainly be enough of a mass of aluminum behind it to bear the force of the Push (we use aluminum in rockets, it can be strong stuff when not in a foil-ish format).  My thought was that these "eggs" could be mounted around a flywheel and oriented so that the Allomancer would be able to push the hardest on the metal inside them just after the egg moves between the Allomancer and the axle the flywheel is on.

My (original) thought was that the Allomancer just throws up a Steel/Iron bubble to get the wheel moving and then normal world mechanics can be used to "shift" the rotation to the gear configuration necessary for the task at hand.  Assuming that Lurchers won't pull the iron out of the aluminum then the eggs would just need to be rotated 180 deg in order to toggle between Steel drive and Iron drive.

At work but will slap another picture together later to better illustrate my thoughts.

Say one embedded a small ball of iron in a larger egg-shaped mass of aluminum, but with the iron oriented to one of the tips of the egg so that it was much heavier on one end than the other (and more to the point, so one side of the iron is heavily shielded by alumninum while the other is only thinly shielded).  Would you agree that it sounds PLAUSIBLE that a Coinshot/Lurcher would have an easier time detecting and interacting the iron within the aluminum egg when the side with the iron ball is oriented towards the Allomancer and a harder time when the iron ball is oriented away from the Allomancer?

*thinking allomantic motor designs*