Oudeis

I disagree with your assumption that the Azir are so blase about killing for minor crimes. You say "only" a leave of execution; the administrator is flabbergasted to see Nale has one of those for someone as minor as a thief. This is clearly not a simple matter of, "oh, I forgot to put my social security number the third time on form 3c(iii), I'll amend it when I get back." There's no reason to assume the minion could have gotten approval to kill Gwax(sp?). Even if he could have, the response from the administrator makes it clear that executing criminals is considered a much bigger deal than taking home office supplies. Doing that without authorization, even if authorization could be assumed, is probably a much bigger deal than a simple slap on the wrist.

I think your initial premise is incorrect. Honor did not specifically become Honorspren, nor has Cultivation become Liespren. We know Honor shattered. We know that the Stormfather is one big part of what's left, and we know that many different types of spren are more prevalent because Honor shattered. However, we know that the bearer of Cultivation is still alive, so there's no actual reason at this point to think that Cultivation has shattered (although she may have). ((The WoB that Cultivation is still alive can be found if you google "Theoryland Cultivation". The last few times I've tried making a direct link I've apparently failed to do so properly, so I am hesitant to try again. If someone can suggest to me what I might be doing wrong, I will try to add the link)). EDIT: With Moogle's help, hopefully this will now work. It is number 5 on this page.

These are excellent questions, but unfortunately, until more is released in text or via WoB (and I think he consistently RAFOs these questions) all you'll get in response is speculation. We honestly don't know. Maybe nicrosil stores your innate investiture. Maybe it can be used to store your very ability to use feruchemical nicrosil. Maybe you can touch someone else's metalmind and drain it into yours. Maybe you can use it to drain the mists. Maybe you cannot use it at all. Maybe it can't even be used by a full Feruchemist or even a Twinborn. Any and all theories are, at this point, pretty much equally valid. Any response you get to this will be just someone's speculation or assumption. The closest thing we have to a source on this is the Mistborn Adventure Game, and while the "history" sections are supposed to be canon until they're not, the metallic metaphysics are certainly not, so those are just as speculative as anything else.

@20 and Aleksiel: ...I'm not at all seeing the difference in what you say. He tried, illegally, to kill someone. He didn't have permission to kill the person, and that's what he tried to do. Regardless of the fact that he could have gotten permission, he didn't have it. I fail to see how this can be considered anything other than attempted murder. That's like saying someone who hops my fence and swims in my pool is a trespasser, but someone who does the same thing at a community pool, where he could get a pass but didn't bother, isn't a trespasser, he's merely someone who didn't get a pass. It's the same crime, performed the same way, in a slightly different context; the fundamental crime remains the same. This isn't "my country's law" or "my personal view," this is simply the definition of a term. Killing a man in legitimate self-defense is one thing. Killing a man, and then saying, "well if he'd had a knife, he could have been a threat" doesn't change "murder" into "illegal attempt at defending oneself," nor should it, nor is there any reason to think that Azir would have such a bizarre and specific law. Regardless, however, my point remains. Even if his crime isn't "attempted murder" but "trying to kill someone without proper authorization," he clearly took an illegal action, and a serious one that could have resulted in someone's death. It's possible that constables are given some leeway, and some cultures have a sharp difference between an attempted and a successful killing, but the minion should still logically be facing strict punishment for his crime. Will Nale insist he turn himself over to proper authorities to accept his punishment? Also, I now totally wanna see a courtroom scene with Nale as a defense attorney. Also I want his help the next time I have to fill out any form in triplicate.

It's mentioned in the Ars Arcanum of Way of Kings, and I believe also Words of Radiance. I think the heliodor bit is new. EDIT: Does each new Bearer need a new gem? Adolin shatters the old one, but admits this was unnecessary. Does he mean the same gem could have been used again, or that the gem could have simply been removed and broken into chips?

We know Ruin cannot see the future as well as Preservation, but presumably his capacity to see the future is better than 5 seconds. I agree that it's odd that the Shard worse at seeing the future would nevertheless grant the power to see the future, in however limited a capacity. However, Honor implies that most, if not all, Shards can see the future to some extent. We know for absolute sure that Preservation, Honor, and Cultivation can. It's strongly implied (if not outright stated) that Odium and Ruin can. At this point, I'd find it unique for any Shard to have literally no future sight.

But the initial quote discusses the fuel, not the Investiture. For example, you can burn wood (solid) oil (water) or gas (gas), but the result is energy. It's been my understanding that the Power of Creation you channel when you "burn" a metal is in the energy state, and rather than converting it from fuel to energy, it's just like opening a windowshade and letting light from outside come in. I could be wrong. And I'm doing that thing again where I'm turning a question on this thread into a debate. Right after asking someone else not to. Sorry!

Aleksiel: That is one philosophy, but not the only one. I wonder which one Nale is. He can clearly wrap his mind around the idea of breaking a law, and paying the penalty. I assume he'd rather follow a law, regardless of penalty, but I wonder exactly how much leeway he gives himself. Will his minion, for example, suffer the penalty for attempted murder?

I feel like we keep talking past each other. I understand what you're saying, but here's the thing. You're basically asking us to assume that spheres cannot be used in Soulcasters (which is an idea I can see your basis behind) and now you're trying to justify then why no one wonders how she Soulcasts with the sphere. I'm coming at it from another perspective, showing this evidence which shows that people accept that spheres can be used in Soulcasters. We've each admitted that neither of our arguments are very solid. You feel yours is more likely, I'm honestly ambivalent between the two. It's somewhat germane to our discussion, but unfortunately we can't know the answer until more books are released, or we get more WoB.

I think you sorta missed the point I was trying to make? The fact is, she called for a garnet, and then she used a sphere and her "Soulcaster" in front of people, and they accepted it. We do know that Soulcasters are relatively rare and poorly understood, so it's possible that spheres don't work with normal Soulcasters, and the people were wrong. Nevertheless, the room full of nurses and doctors saw her use a sphere in a Soulcaster and thought, "Well that looks all right by me." It's well within the realm of possibility that they were wrong, but I think it's probably more likely that it's well-known that spheres can be used in Soulcasters.

Aren't the "states" as you list them qualities of physical matter? I've been under the impression that the Investiture is energy, like light or heat.

Well, Endowment is presumably the one that lets Returned see the future, and it IS in the book that Returned see the future. I guess it could technically be someone else.

We know that Jasnah's Soulcasting was other than as reported, but it's still the case that she used her fake Soulcaster in front of people in order to save Shallan by changing her blood, and she did it with a garnet broam. So, people apparently are willing to accept that spheres can be used by Soulcasting fabrials. Now, maybe they were simply wrong.

Twenty: Nale obviously follows laws as written. He clearly approved of Szeth and the way he slavishly obeyed a law that was not only about making him a slave, but later proved to be unjust and unfounded. Your personal feelings aside, the text is clear on this issue. If Alethi law allows for slaves, Nale would follow Alethi law. "Doing what's right" regardless of the law is more of a Windrunner thing than a Skybreaker thing. @Edgedancer: A curious conundrum. Does he consider laws absolute like that? If a local law stated that you could not enter this garden without permission, and the punishment was that you had to pay a fine, does this mean that legally you're allowed to do it as long as you pay the fine? Is Nale capable of breaking laws, as long as he accepts the consequences proscribed? Or is he unable to break a law under literally any circumstance, even if the only punishment is community service?

How precisely would one make restitution for that? A simple fine? I wonder if Alethi laws have statutes for such responsibilities, and what they entail. If Alethi law were to state that Nale's ignorance was deemed culpable, and as such he is a murderer, and as such he is sentenced to death, would he submit and die?

"Following the law" is actually a far more complicated ideal that you might expect. How much due diligence does Nale require of himself? It seems his purpose is to kill Surgebinders. If he had purchased Kaladin while Kaladin was a slave, he'd've had the right to kill his own slave for any reason. But, Kaladin was illegally made a slave. He never committed a crime or did anything to deserve his punishment. Amaram had no right to make him a slave. Does Nale feel it is incumbent upon himself to research such things? Does he find all the facts and make sure that others are following the law, or does he simply accept what others say at face value? Think of the law in modern times. Let's say a man steals a CD, and then legally sells it to you. Later, the entire scenario comes to light, and the person who initially owned the CD wants it back. What is the legality? Are you culpable because you didn't confirm that the man selling you the CD legally owned it? Are you required to give up the property you purchased legally to a man who lost it illegally? The law can sometimes be very murky. What would Nale do if he did purchase Kaladin, killed him, and thereafter learned that Kaladin had never legally been a slave? Would he simply shrug and say, well I tried my best? Would he make some sort of restitution?

Currently re-reading Words of Radiance, will keep my eyes out for these scenes and more specific evidence one way or another. I remember the first time I read that scene I cringed at how much handwavium was being used to allow Kaladin to blatantly Invest in front of hundreds of people and yet somehow not get caught, and it may have distracted me from pertinent details. From my reading of Way of Kings, there is a ton of evidence of Kaladin having supernatural combat skill, in circumstances where it's unlikely or impossible that he could have drawn in Stormlight. You raise a good point in how it's affected by Stormlight. Perhaps all passives can be boosted with Stormlight, we've just only seen Kaladin's? Maybe with Stormlight, Shallan could take even better memories. Maybe Jasnah, with Stormlight, is able to sense more detailed information with her geolocation. In an attempt to keep this thread on-topic, and because it will be some days before I get to the pertinent scenes, I'm gonna drop this discussion for now so we can get back to the combat (unless we all agree the Seer wins?). When I get that far, perhaps I'll make/find a thread in the Stormlight forum and we can discuss it when I have all the facts.

Actually I think this is simply his passive ability, the way Jasnah has geolocation and Shallan takes Memories. There's strong evidence to suggest Sylphrena has some sort of connection to windspren, and she has a tendency to dance around him as he fights. Maybe she just senses the movement of air around him and feeds him the information via the bond. I grant this is somewhat speculative, but we do know that he fights with beyond-natural skill, and that the air warps around him as he does.

My friend raised an interesting point. We don't, in fact, know that there haven't been other attempts on Amaram's life in the meantime. For all we know he has survived many attempts on his life in this past year. It's plausible that if he assumed it dealt with his secret life as a Son of Honor, he wouldn't be open or forthcoming, even with Dalinar, about the assassination attempts. Twenty's point is also an excellent one. There doesn't seem to be much point for the Skybreakers to want Amaram dead. From the fact that he doesn't seem concerned by the touch of a Shardblade, we the readers can guess that he's not actually a Surgebinder, so in order for them to attack him in the first place, Nale would have had to believe strongly enough Amaram was a Surgebinder to commit to revealing a hidden Shardbearer in order to kill him, and still be wrong. Possible? Yes. Certainly far from presumptive, and frankly it strikes me as unlikely. But I concede, that's just me. You are free to assume anything you'd like about Helaran's affiliation, but you must concede that it doesn't seem to make that much sense. Why would the Skybreakers, who apparently exist for this one purpose, get this so dreadfully wrong, trying to kill an important Marshallord who isn't even a Surgebinder? Weighed against the fact that the only evidence is "Shallan's brother sought the Skybreakers," not saying if he ever found them or not, let alone thereafter decided to join them, let alone was allowed to... I agree with you that the Ghostbloods seem unlikely. Given that, my eye is cast towards Restares. He was awfully quick to blame the Ghostbloods. I've heard it said that when a crime happens, suspect the helpful people. If someone is trying to direct you towards one specific conclusion, they are often really trying to draw your attention away from something else.

1. Why are you so positive Helaran had to be working with the Skybreakers? We've seen in text that one of Shallan's brothers sought out the Skybreakers, but it doesn't say that it was Helaran, or that he ever found them. Do you have additional supportive quotes? 2. How can you be so totally positive that there was no other legal way to condemn Amaram to death? Neither Lift nor Ym were in battle when Nale attacked them, yet you assume that by Alethi law, there's no method but war to kill someone? Is killing someone in war even technically legal? By which I mean, is it actually written into a living code of law that you're allowed to kill people in the conditions of a battle, or is it simply de facto? Are de facto circumstances enough? Nale strikes me as the person who requires de jure laws.

I know, I first came down on the side of the Seer and then my Rep bumped up, and I was legitimately concerned that people would accuse me of supporting this position just because of that fact.

Pretend I wasn't too lazy to actually make this meme. Shut up and take my upvotes!

From context it seems much more like Spook's trick with tin savantism than atium.

Thank you for the WoB. I still don't understand it, for what I hope are obvious reasons. How many people decide what is "plausible"? What is the unit of "belief"? As I mentioned, the people of Sel would not accept "a gate turns into air" as plausible, but the people of Roshar would. To what percentage do either of those affect the forgery? I see and accept that this is true, but I still dislike it. Almost every arcanum he comes up with is interesting and complex. His blatant admission that Forgery is "think of a thing and it happens" is lazy and boring. I didn't make arcanum a thing. Mr. Sanderson made arcanum a thing. I'm just complying. EDIT: Could Ruin manipulate the information stored in one of Shallan's memories? Can he change pictures, or just literal text?

Update, mostly tangential. When Tien died, the soldiers who did it wore Orange. So, prolly not the forces of Vamah. But, confirmed Alethi. So, almost certainly Aladar, then? This added because in one of my initial posts, I mentioned Hallaw, a Lighteyes Kaladin was looking for, and I wondered if it was the person who killed Tien. Unlikely, in an army of Vamah's. So there's at least one other thing that was of paramount importance to Kaladin personally at the time. In all likelihood this is largely irrelevant to the central issue of Helaran, but I'm adding in case it grants context.