Oudeis

Tonight, on a very special 17th Shard... EDIT: The long-anticipated response. This is basically about 95% of what I'm trying to get at with you. We keep going further and further down the rabbit hole. Every time we examine a piece of your evidence, I show you that it's a guess or supposition on your part, and you support it... with further guesses and supposition. How far back are we from the main point you were trying to make, now? And we've uncovered yet another layer of guesswork. Before I address the issues you bring up here, let me point out that this cycle is pretty much the point of my argument. You state your case. I point out your case is based on guesswork. You support your guesses. I point out your support is more guesses. You support the support of the... and it goes on. You asked me once what I meant by "building a castle on shifting sand." This is what I'm talking about. It's all sand. Look at my Tien post that you commented on. Yes, my primary argument is somewhat speculative. But every single piece of evidence I propose is unassailable. It's not based on "what I would do if I were Dalinar in this situation." It's not based on, "Well it seems obvious, doesn't it?" It's not based on, "Shallan's powers will remain a secret, despite the fact that the entire Alethi nobility is calling her Brightness Radiant and everyone knows she and Kaladin are the only two people who can operate the Oathgate." It's based on concrete words. Tien carved a photorealistic horse. There is no wiggle room there, no one can deny that he performed this feat. Whether or not my conclusion is a logical deduction from this fact is a separate issue, the point is, my one single "probably but not definitely true" conclusion is based on rockhard, solid evidence. There's no chance you're going to dispute that he carved the horse, forcing me to shore up my support with more support. That's the difference between trying to build a castle on bedrock, and trying to build it on sand. And again. I'm not saying don't speculate. I'm just asking you to be careful. Don't state that something is true, or that it's "90% likely," or assume it as the premise of a question or argument, if you know it's just a guess on your part, founded on speculation. Or, if you do, realize that there are people who see you as an authority, and they will take you at your word. Lastly, let me restate, because this bears repeating. I'm not saying I think you're definitely wrong. That's never what I was setting out to prove. Your position was, "This has to be (or is almost certainly) right because there's no other plausible alternative." So I'm not trying to utterly disprove your position, or prove that my proposed alternative is absolutely, 100% the thing that happened. What I am saying is, you cannot say "this is almost definitely the case" when it's just one of many options. ...Renarin is inhaling Stormlight to heal his eyes. He's talking to Glys. He hears screams when he touches Shardblades. Upon what, exactly, are you basing your assumption that Renarin has no idea he's a Surgebinder? Does he think eyesight just magically heals for everyone and screaming Shardblades are just something no one talks about like the Thrill? This is the crux of what I'm talking about. You state, flat-out, that Renarin absolutely does not know he's a Surgebinder. You say that like it's a foregone conclusion. This is the part where you have to back it up. If you really mean it, back it up, absolutely. Don't give me a plausible scenario where he knows something's wrong but doesn't know what it is, you now have to prove it. This is the bar you have set for yourself by the way you phrased it. You could instead have said, "It's possible Renarin wasn't yet aware that he was a Surgebinder," but that's not what you said. Your statement rests on the premise that it is absolute fact that Renarin could not possibly have had the faintest inkling that he's a Surgebinder. If you can't prove that, then please don't state it so firmly in the first place. Don't tell me it's possible, or likely, or it's your personal guess or how you read the text. I'm not the one who has said, "Renarin definitely does know he's a Surgebinder" or "Renarin definitely does not," you are. The burden of proof is not on me. You're supporting your main argument with this fact, not me. I'm the champion of our ignorance; I set a much lower bar for myself, which is that we simply don't know, so all I have to prove is that at least two options are plausible. You're the one who said it as though it's unassailable fact, so back it up. Or, admit that you tend to say things as though they're unassailable fact when they're really just your speculation. As for Lift and Ym... you're the champion of Bayesian evidence. The fact that neither of them mention visions is weak Bayesian evidence, and is exactly as strong as some of the evidence you're claiming supports you. I'm only playing by the rules you established. ...Wait, what? Exactly what leads you to believe that Renarin walked into the meeting of the Radiants, told everyone, "Hi guys, I'm a Radiant and I'm called a Truthwatcher," and you think he literally didn't know what he was or the name of the Order until he was halfway through that sentence? That he chalked up his ability to breath money and magically heal and his screaming Shardblade as "oh well, that's prolly nothing."? Can you give me any evidence at all to support your guess that he was unaware of his Surgebinding status until that moment? And keep in mind, you just told me, "It's not evidence that Lift never saw visions just because she doesn't mention it," so you're not allowed to say, "Well Renarin never mentions being a Radiant, so that's evidence that he didn't know." Fair's fair. I've brought this up three times now. There's no reason Kaladin will fly around with Szeth's Blade. Anyone who's seen him with his Blade will go on to see him with Syl. At that point it will be incredibly unlikely that they'd think, "Sure, he's got a Blade that shapeshifts, but I bet he also has a different one and that it's an Honorblade." And this is sorta what I'm coming down to. You're assuming the Shamans will have perfect knowledge, that they'll hear every rumor in the world and somehow they have some magic ability to know which ones are accurate and which ones are exaggerations, mistakes, brags or flat-out lies. You think they'll hear every story told across Roshar, which at this point prolly includes several dozen people at least manifesting Surgebinding powers, and that without fail they will be able to pick out, "Oh, hey, based on these conflicting reports, we can deduce for a fact that this Kaladin fellow has an Honorblade, but we'll also choose to be entirely wrong about the fact that he's a Surgebinder himself." This isn't Final Fantasy where everything any NPC says is not only relevant to the hero's quest, but color-coded and bolded so you can skim and only pay attention to the red words. That's not how actual rumor works. Again. You're trying to support your other arguments by saying that there is one-and-only-one possible way things can happen. I'm trying to tell you that your argument is flawed, because there's at least one other possibility. You're basically telling me now that because I cannot prove that Dalinar will choose the tactical advantage of keeping Kaladin a secret over the public relations of good press for the Radiants, I have to accept that your guess is correct. I was never trying to prove that your guess was absolutely wrong, I'm showing that it's one of a number of possible outcomes, meaning the premise upon which you're basing your central argument is weak, and your central argument is thereby weak by extension. So, the most loyal people of the inner circle, the ones with the most to lose if this information got out, are the only ones who know it. And you see no possibility other than that they will blab. Again... this is helping my point, not yours. I'm not trying to prove any one specific thing, I'm trying to say that you are expressing certainty about guesses. By admitting that we know next to nothing about what happens, you admit that your speculation is based on guesswork and supposition. Also, as you pointed out, the only two people who could possibly have drawn it are Navani and Shallan. I don't think either would have. As to your assertion that people are big on Shardblade history... Amaram's Blade, with no provenance, is noted with vague interest, not fanatical scholarly obsession as you imply. Yes, people sorta care about Shardblades. No, this does not mean that any time anyone sees any Shardblade, they are immediately filled with a compulsion to draw it. This was a plot point earlier in the book. Shallan started sketching Blades specifically because so few people care about keeping an accurate record that even with most of the Blades of Alethkar stuck in one big city, being displayed in Duels and Chasmfiend Hunts, absolutely no one cared enough to bother drawing them until Shallan showed up. So, on the one hand, you assert the point that we have to accept as irrefutable fact that Dalinar will broadcast to the world, "This guy, Kaladin, killed the Assassin in White and now owns his Honorblade" so that it will look good for the Radiants. Then, in the same post, you say that Dalinar will not only forgo learning how to use his awesome new powers, despite how incredibly useful they will be, and will in fact keep his identity a deliberate secret, a feat he was a total failure at accomplishing when he was trying to hide his visions, despite how much good press it would give him to be seen as a Radiant now, having been the person to fulfill the Vengeance Pact and lead Alethkar to the fabled home of their Gods. This is what I'm talking about when I say that you cherry-pick. You hold facts up to one principle when that will support your guesses, then up to a contradictory one to support the same exact guess, and you can't understand why I have trouble believing that both irreconcilable facts are true. @Hoser. Occam's Razor: That's a fallacy in real life, and even more so in a book. In a book, it would basically lead to no character ever misunderstanding something, and "a character misunderstands something" is like 98% of literature. Also, I see no past evidence to support the theory that Mr. Sanderson will always choose to have the simplest, most obvious explanation be true. Renarin and the Nightwatcher: I honestly don't know. It seems unlikely to me, for reasons you've already brought up. Please don't think I'm dismissing them by not addressing them; quite the opposite. I fully agree with you and I admit they're entirely valid. This is why the whole scenario fascinates me. We know very little, and it seems to conflict. For my own points; recall we know almost nothing about Dalinar's wife, and her part of their history would perforce have been when Renarin was little. He does, as I said, possess a neurological defect, which is something people who went to the Nightwatcher have. Specious evidence, I admit, but I point it out in this case to say, if that is his Curse, he's had it most of his life, meaning he'd've had to ask his Boon when he was very, very young. Since that's the part of his life we know nothing about... We know his mom is non-Alethi, since he's got yellow hair. Maybe her family was closer to The Valley? Maybe as a young child he was taken to her family's estate? Maybe his mother went to see her, maybe Renarin tagged along, maybe as a child he unthinkingly asked her for a toy and was given a box to play with in exchange for asperger's and epilepsy. Kaladin himself notes that Renarin gets cagey when you ask him about it. In short, this all seems extremely unlikely. However, I'm going to keep an open mind as I go forward, and hunt for more clues. Perhaps even ask Mr. Sanderson if the Firefight tour comes near me. As I say, there's a ton about Renarin we do not know. Maybe more information will shed some light on the situation. As for your quote... you say, basically, that if we learn of a second influence, we'll have to consider if the phenomenon came from that source. What I'm saying is, phrasing it like that implies that until we have confirmation of a second source, we should not speculate that there might be one, no matter how unlikely Renarin's visions seem to be related to Surgebinding. That's the point I was trying to get at. I see no reason we have to wait until confirmation is given before we speculate, given cause. I've seen a lot of people who know he's a Surgebinder, know this one phenomenon happens to him, and assumes there's no option but that the two are related. I respectfully disagree with this assumption, while your quote makes it sound like you support it. That's all I was trying to say.

I will always find that moment amusing. "You, the person who is currently, literally killing me. I like the cut of your jib. Please guard this for me." EDIT: Something's always bothered me. Gavilar tells Szeth, when he thinks he's working for (Restares? Thaidakar?) "It's too late, even killing me won't stop it." ... Won't stop what? It's been six years. What thing happened that killing Gavilar did not prevent? It cannot be the Vengeance Pact because Gavilar thought he was tight with the Parshendi. Is it something that's just taken seven years for us to notice? Is it something we see, but don't realize it was because of Gavilar? Is it the Diagram?

In both cases it's shown less like oh i feel better when you're around, and more like an actual arcane effect, like Soothing. And the photorealistic horse isn't something people just do.

Hoser I have to run out. Full response forthcoming, but this cannot wait. Sorry, I was referencing a broader trend I see, which is that many many people (yourself excluded) simply state as though it's been proven true that Renarin's visions are typical Truthwatcher powers, ignoring my objections and evidence. I wasn't careful enough to distinguish in my post that I was talking about the broader trend, rather than what you specifically were saying. I, too, have a pet peeve against people who ascribe motivations to people. I grimace most severely to myself as I realize I've done to you a thing I hate when it happens to me. The fact that it was unintentional is irrelevant; I still did it. You have my sincere and true apologies, and I will make ever more stringent efforts to ensure I don't make this mistake again. Please accept an upvote.

In the Way of Kings, in the chapter The Weeping, Tien carves a photorealistic statue of a horse he'd seen the previous day, despite a generally regarded lack of carpentry skill. He also frequently "makes Kaladin feel better". It's noted in the epigraphs of Words of Radiance that the Lightweavers provided others with Spiritual Sustenance. Later, in the Chasms, when Shallan (a known Lightweaver) does the exact same thing to Kaladin, he even specifically thinks to himself, "This feel exactly like what Tien used to do for me." I think the case is compelling. I am sure enough to flat-out say it as true. If Tien wasn't ... well, getting into Semantics. Are you a Lightweaver before you say the first Oath? When are you a Surgebinder versus a Knight Radiant, and how do we divide up the ten kinds of Surgebinder if the terms for the Orders are reserved for the Radiants? (I've read different W's-o-B which confuse me on his personal use of the terminology. I like allomancy. You're an Allomancer, or you aren't. Snapping takes an instant, and lasts until you die or have that bit of your soul removed. None of this "potentially have a proto-bond which may or may not develop into something more concrete but can always be reversed under specific circumstances but then can be restored". Pah.) For the specific purposes of this post and only this post, I'm going to temporarily define "Lightweaver" as anyone starting to forge a bond with a Cryptic which has the potential to turn into a full Nahel bond granting access to the Illumination and Transformation Surges. If Tien wasn't a Lightweaver, he clearly had access to the same power Shallan has, a power referenced in Words of Radiance as belonging to the order of Lightweavers.

First... I'm a little confused. Isn't the second thing you're describing how Ruin can affect those with hemalurgic spikes, i.e. koloss and kandra? He cannot speak to just anybody, he cannot influence just anybody. You must be insane, or your must have a spike, yes? Second, am I the only one who finds this interesting? I thought that Threnody was a place that has never had a Shard, but now this seems to imply that there was a Shard, which died. I wonder if this supports my personal theory that when Adonalsium was whole, he ruled all the planets, even Threnody, and that the Evil coming was actually not a bad thing coming, but the loss of Adonalsium when he shattered. Is this supported by the fact that "We also see this on Threnody" is the answer to "What happens when Shards die?"?

Not sure. Why was Kaladin a Windrunner, but Tien a Lightweaver? The point is that the spren has to pick you and decide to Bond to you. Syl entered our world, found Kaladin, was attracted to how honorably he acts, and forged the Bond. If she'd run into a different honorable man first, she might have Bonded with him. Or if Kaladin had given up at the Chasm, or lost his honor when he was betrayed by Amaram, maybe she'd've gone off and found someone else who is honorable. In short, Dalinar is a Bondsmith because he found a spren capable of a Nahel bond and convinced it to forge one with him. If Gavilar had lived, if he was honorable and tried to protect people, who knows? Maybe he would have attracted Syl. Maybe the Circle would have chosen him as the person they wanted Wyndle to Bond and he'd've been an Edgedancer. Maybe he would never have Bonded any spren, and would have had to live out his life as simply the most politically powerful human being on all of Roshar, with nothing more magical than a suit of nigh-impenetrable armor granting fantastical strength and a sword bonded to his soul which can cut through stone as if it were water. And nearly peak human skill at using them.

They're not open... but you seem to be assuming that it's possible literally every single one of them sequestered themselves away with zero witnesses every single Highstorm without fail, and that no one ever commented on how odd that habit was. Dalinar was one man trying to hide his visions, the most politically powerful man in all Roshar, and not only was he unable to stop everyone talking about it when they couldn't see it, he wasn't even able to go two months without having a vision in front of his own men. I don't understand how you select which things can remain perfect, unknown secrets, like the mass hallucinations of more than 10% of what keeps humanity alive, and what is more-or-less common knowledge, like nine Blades no one has seen in six thousand years. You bring up excellent points. Dalinar does have uncontrollable visions every Highstorm... and we are specifically and expressly told that this has nothing to do with Bondsmithing. Honor himself flat-out says, "I am using my Shardic powers to craft this hallucidiary and shove it into someone's brain." In fact, by the time Dalinar binds the Stormfather, the visions stop. Kaladin rides the storm once, and he doesn't control it. It's an entirely new experience for him and we later learn he assumes at first that it's nothing more than a dream. The very second time he does it, he now knows it's not a dream, immediately takes control, and turns around to have a conversation with the Stormfather. And who knows what's up with Shallan. We know from the Ars Arcanum that Lightweavers make spiritual connections to the things they craft art out of, and the two farsight drawings she makes are of people she's got some sort of connection to (Yalb she's drawn a few pictures of, and I presume she's got some sort of connection to the Herald upon whom her Order is based). Doesn't happen during a Highstorm... and she sorta does it by making the conscious decision to give up control... it's all just a weird situation. So, to summarize, of the four Radiants you bring up (which doesn't include Lift or Ym, neither of which seem to have any manner of Vision whatsoever) one has Visions from a confirmed outside source, and one has Highstorm visions he's able to control by the very second time it happens. Based on this evidence, you see absolutely no choice but to assume that Renarin's visions, which he cannot control after 10 times despite the fact that he's got a spren who should be able to give him at least an idea that what's happening is part of his Surgebinding which flies in the face of an actual edict spoken by the Almighty himself and is most similar to a phenomenon happening to his father which we know for a fact has nothing to do with Surgebinding... is simply a common trait of all Truthwatchers, despite no historical record or any mention of it during the Point of View of the other Truthwatcher, Ym. And you literally cannot understand why I think it's merely possible, instead of a foregone conclusion. No Shardblade anywhere operates on the same principle as modern fabrials, per Navani. By this line of reasoning, I could say that Honorblades are metal and hemalurgic spikes are metal, so all you have to do is figure out where on your own body to stab the Honorblade and that's how you bond to it. Believe what you wish. Just please stop stating it as fact. And again, I'm not saying a Bond is impossible. I think that when Mr. Sanderson said the first quote, what he meant was, "You don't just pick up and Bond an Honorblade. The process involves being GIVEN an Honorblade." You ignore that second half of the original quote a lot. So... your evidence is one man who has been alive longer than the Honorblades themselves have existed, and two assumptions. Your first assumption is that Nale is the sort of open, talkative boss who has a long history of sharing details with his subordinates, perhaps during team-building exercises at corporate retreates. And your second is, "Ghostbloods know about Surgebinding, ergo they must know that the Honorblades are real and also where they are." That doesn't seem at all a stretch to you? I'm not even going to address that point. At this point you're shoring up flagrant assumptions with more flagrant assumptions and acting confused when I don't follow you. I see flaws in your various assumptions about how Taravangian thought on the day of the Diagram, but let me address a few central issues first. First of all, how on earth can you suggest that the man smarter than anyone has ever been in history would for some reason be limited by inductive reasoning? I have less information than him, I'm not as smart as him, and there's nothing preventing me from using deduction, induction, or even abduction. How on earth can you justify the claim that he'd only use inductive reasoning? The same morale boost comes from telling everyone he's dead, and leaving it at that. Revealing that Kaladin himself did it serves no additional purpose. And there's plenty of reason to keep it a secret. They have Rlain now, who can tell them, "We gave away that Shin six years ago". They officially have no idea who Szeth was working for, or what his purpose was. Feeding a hidden enemy all of your information is a tactical disadvantage. I'd like to see how things fall out. If he can at all convince the general population that the Assassin was driven off but is still alive, that would be better for Alethkar, since whoever wants Dalinar dead won't instantly know that Plan A has failed, time to release Plan B. We'll have to see how things shook out, I don't know if it's possible to say that, but at the very least keeping as many details as possible secret keeps accurate information from getting to the enemies of Alethkar. Again, I'm not saying that this is 100% what's going to happen, or that your suggestion is 100% wrong. What I'm saying is, you're assuming that your version is 100% going to happen, and building further speculation upon that assumption. You're the one right now in the position of trying to defend your version as 100% accurate. Unless you can prove, beyond a doubt, that your version is 100% what's going to happen and my version, or any other potential version, is utterly impossible, you will be forced to concede that everything else you're basing upon this premise is therefore even less likely. You're missing my point. Almost no one saw him with the Honorblade, at least not close enough to make out a lot of details. He can hide the Honorblade somewhere, no problem, and start showing off Syl. She can look small and unornamented. She can look huge and grandiose. She can be a shield, or a stick, or maybe even a Shardcup. Also, how exactly will they explain Shallan's Blade, or her use of Illumination and Transformation? Renarin using Illumination and Progression? Dalinar using Adhesion and Tension? They know they've got all those Honorblades. I'm no sure which point we're arguing here. Obviously, the Shamanate will try to keep people from knowing the Radiants are back, because their rule seems to be, at least in part, based on the notion that the unassailable Truth is that the Radiants are gone forever. It's one thing they'll have to deal with, in addition to Kaladin having their Honorblade, Szeth coming after them, and the Everstorm that will shatter their country and decimate their population. There will be so much going on with the Shamanate that I suspect even "the Radiants are back" will be something put on the back burner. Kay... I've made my point twice now as plainly as I can, and you seem to be arguing against a somewhat different point which is not the one I'm making. I'm gonna try saying this again, and I ask you to read it with an open mind, and accept that my previous posts might have given you a mistaken impression. Pretend you never read them, and take this at face value, without trying to reconcile it with what you think I was saying before. Right now, we only know of one arcane influence on Renarin. We have at least two other instances of Surgebinders also having a second arcane influence. Making the assumption that Renarin cannot possibly have a second influence we don't yet know about is premature. It's possible, though I've provided my evidence claiming I think it's unlikely. What I'm contending against, however, is the assumption you just stated, which is that until we are expressly told that there's a second influence, we are compelled to assume there is only one, and everything arcane about Renarin must therefore come from this one source. Given that I feel his visions are unlikely to be from Surgebinding, and given that we know there are several as-yet unexplained phenomena all throughout Roshar, the most logical (but not by any means a definitive) conclusion is that his visions are the result of a second source, just like his Father's, just like Lift's capacity to metabolize food into Stormlight. Incidentally... how do you know Renarin never went to the Nightwatcher? He does have a neurological condition. Just sayin'.

...when you get very tired and suddenly realize in a panic that Odium is trying to kill Shards and you belong to one of them...

I do find it interesting... Amaram is shocked to learn that any Herald could look unAlethi, and literally refuses to believe a Herald could be darkeyed. He buys into Vorinism so greatly, he'll break the world trying to restore it to prominence. Why would he chafe against the gender restrictions that are such a part of Vorinism? An interesting dichotomy. Does he not think the Arts are integral to Vorinism? Why not? How do we reconcile the indisputable fact of the flutes with the seeming contradiction of Amaram's obsession with Vorinism?

"To speak of what is to come is forbidden." -Honor himself. Did you read my post? There's just as much connection between "visions" and "truthWATCHERS" "SEE" as there is between the Growth Surge dealing with a human's source of energy, or the Friction Surge dealing with whether or not you can grip something. Why are you so certain we know everything there is to know about where magic abilities can come from? Before we were expressly told, had you realized that the Thrill and Death Rattles are things that we get from the Unmade? We know there are more than two Unmade, we've seen that they have a tendency to gift things to people, and the Diagram mentions that all of them have to deal with precognition in some way. How can you be so 100% positive, two books in, when we've only seen extensive scenes in three of the ten kingdoms of the world, and really just two specific places outside of Alethkar, that you already know the sum total of where powers can come from? We don't even know where Shardplate came from. Or the Ryshadium. Or very much at all about Voidbinding. Or what powers the Splinters of Adonalsium might have. This is all I'm saying. The assumption seems to be: Visions and "seeing things" are similar, and we know literally every possible source of arcane phenomena, ergo all Truthwatchers would get visions during Highstorms, which for some reason despite being something everyone would notice, was never once mentioned in the Words of Radiance book (note that when Renarin comes up and claims to be a Truthwatcher, Kaladin looks at Shallan, who indicates she knows nothing about that order, and she's just finished the book). A lot of people seem very comfortable with both of those assumptions. I see gaping holes in them. Let me say this one last time in case it gets lost in the shuffle. It's still entirely possible. I cannot say with certainty that it's not the case; I think it goes against a lot of what we know. No other Surgebinder seems to have powers that come upon them uncontrollably after sixty days of experiencing them. Ym doesn't seem to see the future during Highstorms (though I'll grant maybe he just didn't mention his tendency to wake up after Highstorms having carved things on the walls). It's stated several times that Voidbinding and the Unmade are great at precognition, and it's stated by Honor himself that precognition is forbidden. That's the actual word he uses; forbidden. Seems like an odd way to refer to a trait he handed out to 10% of his Heralds. Mookla: Dead sprenblades aren't based on Honorblades. All the quotes you reference say that the Radiantblades are based on the Honorblades. To bond a Radiantblade, you first have to attract a spren, then in a process that can take months or even years forge such a close bond to that Spren that you say a total of three Ideals and get the ability to summon a Blade. The "gem and intent" trick only works after a Blade has been killed. If you have it handy, I would very much like to see the WoB you reference where he flat-out says "the previous WoB is wrong." The one you showed me somewhat recently doesn't say that. After six thousand years, one man, empowered with inhuman brilliance by 1/16th of God to the point that he's able to intuit things like worldhopping becomes the first person to ever deduce that the Shin have Honorblades. So you're right. It's not impossible. Clearly, the Shin have gained this same divine capacity for intellect and have two thousand years to wait for the odds to be 50/50 that they have a single day of being smart enough to simply deduce the location of the final Honorblade. I concede the point. Seriously though, you flat-out state that Taravangian was limited on Diagram Day to Inductive Reasoning (if I recall the various types of logical reasoning correctly) which is actually a fairly inaccurate method of reasoning. Deductive reasoning would be a better way to learn things, and does not require that the Shamanate has ever told anyone, "Hey, we've got Honorblades." First, do we actually know anyone has told the world, "Kaladin killed Szeth?" i cannot recall from those last few chapters if it was in Dalinar's Spanreed Facebook post. A very few people saw the Assassin in White in the middle of the battle, and next to no one but Dalinar, Adolin and Bridge Four noticed (or recognized) Kaladin and Szeth take off into the storm. And yes, people saw he's got a cool new Shardblade. He calls her Syl. There is absolutely no one who will be so certain he's got two that he can't stick the Honorblade somewhere, show off Syl (who, remember, can look like anything) and be known for having one Shardblade. It's not impossible that it's still secret. And second, Szeth doesn't say, "on the off chance I'm killed publicly and my death and the location of my Honorblade are announced to the world, the Shamante will collect my Blade." You're right, in this specific circumstance, rumor could prolly give them at least clues. But Szeth was sure the could find him even when he spent years not summoning his Blade or using his powers, when his greatest risk of death was catching some fatal illness he has no immunity to since he comes from a race of xenophobes who prolly don't have resistance to the Kharbranthian Flu during a Weeping when he couldn't Invest to heal it. That's like saying if there are six boxes, five contain bees and one has a cake, and I pick the one closest to me because I'm lazy and I luck out and it's cake, that being lazy is clearly the best way to get cake instead of bees. Wow, I really just wrote that sentence. Can I submit it for a Reckoner analogy? Also, I'm not necessarily a proponent of the Shamanate having magic Honorbladedar. I have no idea how they expect to find the Blade. Maybe it's a feature of Honorblades that you can use them to sense others. Maybe they've got an Alerter fabrial. Maybe there's something about the Oathstone that's like a Conjoiner and lets them spy (although they could only spy on Taravangian, who has the stone). Maybe the claim was simply bravado on their part. However, I reject your assertion that it has to be binary. You don't believe they've got Bladedar, so the only other possible option is that, despite the fact that not one single Vorin person who should worship the Honorblades realized that the man killing all of their governments had one, it's nevertheless a simple matter of spending some time by the watercooler until someone casually mentions, "Oh, hey, this dude Chad over in Marabethia killed some Shin and took his Honorblade." One thing being unlikely doesn't mean that one other randomly chosen option has to be the answer; if there are two very unlikely options then it's time to start looking for third options. At the moment I'm leaning towards bravado on the part of the Shamanate. Sidenote... suddenly thinking that Szeth was overselling how difficult opposing the Shamanate will be. They're in charge of the country that is about to get even more Everstormed than anywhere else. They are at the maximum cross between "unprepared for any sort of storm" and "Everstorm fresh and powerful off the sea". They will have so much more to worry about than on enTruthed Truthless. I tentatively agree with you on the elevabrial thing... while I'm loathe to claim to know more about fabrials than Navani, I have to admit I need some more explanation to make this make sense to me. In order for a conjoined elevator gemstone to work, there would have had to have been a gemstone capable of falling as far as Dalinar was going to go up, and it would have had to be pushed down by a force as great as it would take to lift Dalinar. They did this during her tests with scaffolding and physically carrying the gemstones back up each time. They did it on the Plains by dropping rocks down into Chasms, which they couldn't have repeated if they wanted to unless they were somehow able to drag back to earth the gems up in the air which... would have taken the same amount of human effort. I dunno. Maybe there are weights that get winched back up by windmills or something, a way to store energy that the conjoined fabrials then take advantage of to turn that energy into a functioning elevator? I dunno. On balance, we know the Radiants had at least three Fabrials of the Surges, and that we've seen, they never used one of the more modern fabrials. Dalinar even tells her after a vision that in ancient times he's never seen a modern-style fabrial. On balance, I'm tempted to believe she just figured it was a type of fabrial she's familiar with, like how she thought Plate and Blades were simply ancient Fabrials which we now know isn't the case, and that the elevator runs on Gravity. Just one man's opinion. Might make a good WoB. Maybe a sneaky one. "Did people in ancient Roshar have access to conjoined fabrials like spanreeds?" Might be a sneaky way to get him to say no, and confirm that they prolly aren't using them to power their elevators, then. Also, why do you think the Windrunners were more rare? If I'm remember the scene correctly, they had even numbers with the Stonewards, and I believe the Stonewards were mentioned as being the whole Order, yes? I should re-read that scene...

Your point is valid; my theory is far from holeproof. It's just something I'm going to consider while I wait for additional information; perhaps I'll ask questions about it if I can get to a Firefight signing. That said... I'm not wholly convinced the holes are quite as big as you're pointing out. We know she lives in a Valley. Valleys are typically between mountains. It's possible that she was once considered "the spren of the mountain" that she's at the foot of. Also, if she is a spren, she's definitely one of the most powerful ones. And lastly, the point you brought up; the myth is ancient, and it's possible small details got changed. "A spren who lives near a mountain" got shortened to "the spren of a mountain," for example. But, obviously, this is all justification. You're right, a strict reading of the myth pokes some holes in my guess. I in no way expect anyone else to fall in line with my reasoning, it's just something I'm personally gonna consider until I get new information.

A comment on the assumption that Renarin's visions are related to his Radiantness: If we read Lift's chapter, and Wyndle did not comment or make note of her ability to turn food into Stormlight, if no one had told you expressly that it was a Boon from the Nightwatcher... would you all be making the same assumption? After all, human bodies "grow" by digesting food and turning it into metabolic energy, so why couldn't anyone with the Growth Surge simply get Stormlight from food? We see that Renarin has a unique trait, and we also know he's a Radiant. With incredibly flimsy justification flying in the face of some pretty clear explanations in text, people are assuming that there's no option but that those two are related. Lift has a unique trait, and she's a Radiant. If Wyndle never said, "How can you touch me?" would the same people who assume that Truthwatching means perfect, uncontrollable 62-day-in-advance precognition that for some reason only happens during Highstorms, assume her ability to physically touch her spren was simply an extension of her Friction Surge? I'm not saying it's not possible. I personally think it's unlikely given what we know, but it's not impossible. However, I absolutely do not think it's something we can safely assume is true.

Recall that Szeth says if he goes back to oppose the Shamans, they'll be armed with Honorblades. So, we have this to support the idea that they will use them, though your points remain valid that it does seem at odds with Shin culture. I look forward to finding out how these are reconciled. 1. Recall that you're again assuming the premise that simply picking up an Honorblade is all you need to do to "Bond" it. I know there are two confusing W's-o-B out there, but one flat-out says that it's not that simple. Apart from Honorblades, we've seen three other types of Shardblades that form Bonds, and none of them are as simple as "pick it up." Assuming that Honorblades are unique in being even simpler than any other type of Blade seems like a flawed premise to base an argument on. 2. Actually, when people have compelling reason to, they have shown a tendency to keep Blades secret. The Vision of the Recreance showed about 200 Radiants per Order. Even if we assume that was the sum total of both the Stonewards and the Windrunners, and assuming the Bondsmiths were only 3 (and might not have had Blades), and the epigraph suggesting that one entire Order didn't Recreant, that's still a reasonable assumption of 1600 indestructible Blades that once existed. There are slightly more than 100 Blades officially accounted for now across the continent. The listeners had Blades no one knew about. Helaran had a Blade no one knew about. The King of Jah Keved was able to keep his own Blade to nothing more than a rumor. If you pass through a forest and catch fleeting glimpses of three deer, does that suggest to you that those three deer are the only deer that exist in the entire woods? Or does it suggest that deer are simply very, very good at hiding? Basically, you're looking at the set of "Blades we know about," and saying that since you don't know about "Blades we don't know about," that your lack of data is proof that they don't exist. I respectfully disagree. Lack of proof is not proof of lack. Finally, recall that the Shamans have possessed these blades for something like 4 millenia (closer to 6 earth millenia) and no one but Diagram-Smart Taravangian has ever figured out they have them. So the Shamans themselves are proof of the capacity to keep Honorblades secret. Why would a group so incredibly skilled at keeping these specific Blades a secret assume that it's impossible for anyone to keep these Blades a secret?

We have from the text that Taravangian, at least, believes the Death Rattles are 1. from one of the Unmade, and 2. a thing potentially useful to augment the Diagram. Also, as has been pointed out, while a few specific Rattles seem to be from Taln, several others seem to be from Kaladin, and many others seem to be up in the air. It's widely believed based on the text that some, but by no means all, of the Rattles are from Taln's perspective.

I find that I've gotten more attached to Syl. She seems to experience pain and discomfort at times, awkwardness and anger. Pattern's always on an even keel. For the purposes of a story, that's somewhat boring. I sorta don't care, because I've got no reason to. It doesn't seem like anything would faze or upset him. I get the sense that Syl can experience real emotional pain. If something happens that might upset her, that gives me the reader something to be interested about. I don't think we ever see Pattern get more than flustered at something confusingly illogical. I also frankly don't like most of the human/spren relationships so far. The fact that Wyndle flat-out calls Lift "Mistress" bothers me. The human makes all the decisions and orders the spren around. Shallan never once asks Pattern, "Would you mind...?" she just tells him what to do. Syl does a lot for Kaladin, but he asks nicely, if sometimes firmly. They come to mutual decisions. Pattern just does what he's told. I see Pattern as just an aspect of Shallan's character, like a pet. I see Sylphrena as a character in her own right.

Given that we're unsure exactly how electrum works, or if it would even help with that, I think Pathfinder's point that Vin was, in fact, able to surprise him a few times proves that either he wasn't using it, or it can't help with such things. Recall that electrum gives you a cloud. He might have seen several of his shadows suddenly fall forward, but in the two or so seconds he has to react, he'd have to first deduce that it wasn't simply one of his selves tripping over the torn patch of carpet he keeps meaning to have replaced with the blood of his victims, realize what's actually going on, and react appropriately. Nothing impossible for someone with functionally limitless stores of feruchemical zinc and steel, but hardly a foregone conclusion. I feel like the odds of catching him at a moment when he's sufficiently distracted for three seconds to pass without him picking out the right five or six shadows out of the dozens, hundreds, who knows, approaches a certainty.

It occurs to me that storing in bronze gives you most of the common benefits of burning cadmium (skipping boring parts, getting right to the good part) with the added advantage of getting that time back later, staying awake at some point long into the night and still being fresh for work the next day. Though, I know I get super weird if I wake up from a twenty-minute nap. If I store in bronze for 20 minutes, then stop, will I go back to being just myself after a few minutes of disorientation, or will it take me as long to "wake up" as it takes me in real life? (To give you a sense of how poorly I wake up, I live a 15-minute walk from work, and routinely set my alarm for 2-hours before I have to be in to ensure I'm not only present but aware.)

Interesting. Trying to go for an insta-kill headshot or the heart is your best bet; you'll need surprise to make even the first shot, and there's no way a Lord Ruler you just shot is letting you live for another minute to shoot him again. One quick mention: I'm led to believe the human body is much warmer on the inside than room temp, so you could prolly have a slightly higher mix of aluminum. Once it's inside, who knows if it would prevent The Lord Ruler from just storing in a brassmind and solidifying it, but by then the real damage would be done... once it's been dispersed through the body, as it would be in the first few seconds, it can be as solid as he wants, it's still not a single bullet able to be dug out of a single spot. I guess best case scenario for him, if you only get an arm, he can freeze it, then chop off the whole arm and regrow another. Headshot or hitting his trunk obviates this. So... it sounds like, if you hit him and he doesn't die, it's a race to see if the poison manages to kill him before it oxidizes too much and he's able to heal it out, and it sounds like in such a case, it seems like oxidizing would definitely happen too quickly. A headshot it is, then, because being unable to heal a headwound for about fifteen seconds or so would prolly kill The Lord Ruler enough for him to be unable to recover from it.

I like the cut of your jib. Basically, I think we all agree that worldhopping is a not-terrible way to make money any number of ways. In fact, I was working on a story once about a Mistborn (born about 300 years before Vin) who didn't himself worldhop, but was brought from world to world through the agency of a worldhopping trader whom I only ever referred to as the Cosmerchant. He set up people with unique skills or unheard of powers as his agents on each world, gathering useful supplies unique to that planet, and spent his time traveling from place to place with his goods, buying low and selling high.

Yes, but recall that the Unkalaki, who have listener blood, consider every spren, even just flamespren, to be Gods. Doesn't mean they're actually combat-effective.

I think you're right, it's the perfect "silver bullet" for the Lord Ruler. It doesn't actually have to interfere with his allomancy, it's simply a poison he cannot heal, no matter how much he compounds feruchemical gold. By making it an alloy, it's also something he cannot safely simply burn away as though it were a reserve. I do wonder, however, if it's the sort of thing he could burn pure aluminum to get rid of... you'd have to hope he doesn't walk around with a dose close to hand, and then keep him away from it (which would require not-dying) for the minutes it would take him to die. Or, through weeks of espionage, learn where he keeps his emergency aluminum, and manage to steal it at the same time your sniper friend sacrifices his life by pumping The Lord Ruler full of healing-proof poison; unless the poison does totally prevent his allomancy, which seems maybe unlikely, I find it unlikely that you can get close enough to put three bullets in The Lord Ruler without him being able to retaliate within a few minutes. Though, Vin's attack on his malatium shadow did prove that sneak attacks are technically possible against him. Just not sneak attacks you want away from.

That's not when they talk about Sadeas appointing a Champion... I believe that Shallan mentions it when we first hear about the whole plan, or perhaps Navani does. They admit that they might not get to kill Sadeas, but that even if he does appoint a Champion, they'll still shame him and win his Shards.

We know next to nothing about how Renarin foresaw the Everstorm. Assuming it had anything to do with his Surgebinding is premature, at best. No one else had any real trouble controlling their powers. Trouble accessing them? Yes. Controlling them? No. Why, after weeks and weeks of practice, would Renarin still be unable to control his "sight"? Also, he doesn't seem to visibly Invest the one time we see him doing it. Nor do we have any indication that Ym is able to see what is to come, which would have been terribly useful to help him avoid being killed by Nale. Even if you were right, Renarin doesn't see the far-away present, he sees the nearby future. If the Stone Shamans were using future sight to know where Szeth would die in advance of his death, wouldn't they have sent someone with the Skybreaker sword to fly through the storm and catch the Blade before Kaladin could? Or, if Skybreaker is the one they don't have, two or three Shamans with Blades to get it back from Kaladin the next day? For that matter, if they can see the future and know Szeth was going to die to a Radiant, why did they declare him Truthless for claiming the Radiants existed?

We seem to be talking about "real world" use, or Scadrial advanced to the Modern Age. Either way, atium should be considered off the table. To answer a question above, yes, I believe we have WoB that if you use a mask to hyperoxygenate your blood, you have more breath to store, and a fat person can store more weight and caloric energy at a time. The bullet train wouldn't work because it's not your speed across the land that gets stored, it's how fast you're able to move your own body. Which is good, because if you're on a bullet train going 300 clicks, then you suddenly start storing speed so you're personally only going 5 clicks, you'll end up as paste smeared on the inside of the train. My question. If I drink 5 gallons of water and store it all in a bendalloymind... when do I have to pee? Now, or when I tap the stored fluids? I personally think that while using brass or zinc lightly in everyday use is no more invasive than having a winning personality, a lot of money or a gorgeous body, I would call it creepy to emotionally manipulate a date more than a little. That said, being upfront about it and offering our date an emotional massage could have its advantages. "Hey, rough day? Nothing you can do about it until the morning. Would you like to hang out with someone who actually can directly assist you in keeping your worry and anxiety at bay? You'll sleep like a baby tonight and wake up tomorrow with a fresh new attitude, ready to tackle your problems!" Keeping warm in the rain or cool as you're walking from your car to the beach, eating what I want and staying slim, being able to turn off my sense of smell when my coworker burns the popcorn. Mental speed for video games. And as someone pointed out, you really do spend a lot of your life able to store stuff pretty easily. I so rarely have to rely on my full physical strength throughout the day; for the rare times I want to get the ladder off the wall myself or open a stuck jar, I could be storing a trickle of strength nearly constantly, moreso at certain times, no problem. A deciding factor for me, personally, would be, is this a world of Metallic Artists? Or am I the only one? I'm personally obsessed with allomantic copper and bronze, so if I'd have the opportunity to use those, it would prolly tip the scales for me personally from feruchemy to allomancy. That said, personal taste aside, I think feruchemy is clearly the more "everyday useful" choice. That said, flying, even the "fling yourself powerfully through the sky" flying that is steeljumping, will prolly draw a lot of adherents who are more than willing to give up some utility to escape the bonds of the earth.