Oudeis

My personal theory involves the listeners getting a boon from the Nightwatcher to save them from extinction which turned them into something human enough to interbreed. But that's lately speculative.

We know simple Feruchemical gold can heal hemalurgic theft. If anyone could heal someone from being a hemalurgic creation, you'd think Ruin could... Though Ruin prolly not great at healing, on the whole. Maybe Sazed couldn't get both sides working together quick enough, and by the time he could Marsh wanted to stay as he was? Interesting implications for Shards having a proprietary ability to deal with the fallout of their own arcanum, if this baseless speculation does turn out to be true.

Keep in mind this also isn't an age where you can scour the world for contacts. Approximately 1800 people ever knew it. Surely a few told some other people, but that's still a shockingly small portion of the population. The author could hardly travel to every small town for exhaustive interviews or do internet research. Also, recall that in the book, the Diagram is an excellently kept secret. In real life, the CIA keeps many secrets. It's possible, but by no means likely, that this secret wasn't well-kept.

interesting both that the one order who kept secret somehow injured the Recreanting Orders somehow thereby, and also that there's one order which didn't recreant, kept it secret, but somehow this was well enough known thereafter that the author of Radiance published it widely.

He didn't ask Spook. So unless Kelsier specifically asked, "please heal spook whether or not he wants it" Sazed didn't seem to be asking. This is an excellent question i am shocked and embarrassed i never asked myself. is it possible the damage to a spiritweb via Hemalurgy cannot be simply healed?

I'm enjoying playing a duralumin compounder from the MAG, though obviously this is non Canon, even more so since we got the WoB about duralumin.

Hrm. We have strong reason to suspect that Szeth could not heal from shardcuts. This implies that at least healing, not just Surges, are different for Szeth. Yet, he does at times seem to go weeks without Investing, though maybe he just does it surreptitiously. Hrm. There's a thought. What if he's modeled like a Returned? What if, if he doesn't consume a certain amount of Stormlight per period of time, it will eat his soul? That might make for an interesting scene. The Alethi army gives the Blade to someone so they have another Surgebinder, that person after a month or so happens to go a week without practicing and it eats his soul. The hazards of messing around with poorly understood primordial magic, like how Marie Curie didn't realize her experiments would give her cancer.

We only know of his two companions from the books. They could be additional fabrications. Some little old lady in an attic apartment could be writing all three accounts. Unless someone else knows of independent confirmation that even one of those three really exists?

Yes, sorry. I wrote it, then re-read it, then posted it, then re-read it again and I finally realized I was being needlessly confrontational, so I tried to remove the aggressive parts and leave the meat of my argument. Sorry. In my defense, I finished my last edit six minutes after I first posted. You're fast. In my constant attempts to understand why we keep talking around each other, I've come up with a new theory in my head as to what, exactly, you are saying that I'm missing. Please tell me if this is an accurate reflection of what you're saying or not. It seems to me that you're saying, "The fundamentals and principles of Forgery have not yet been explained to us. Whatever the system is, it will make sense, and we've seen a hint or two as to what lies beneath the surface, but we simply have to admit that we have no idea, and trust that whatever is eventually revealed will be a good system, like most of the others Mr. Sanderson has written." If so... I could get my head around that idea. As I implied, it would require that we basically accept that what Shai and Gaotana tell us is mostly mistaken. What I am saying, which I don't seem to be adequately expressing, is that... when I say I think you're just justifying (and frankly I don't have your confidence that you've done it well), I can't tell if you think I accept that you've got a solid premise which just needs a little bit of work around the edges. As near as I can see, there isn't a premise. The central idea of "I can make it so that any plausible thing happens" not only fails to make sense as a concept, but is frequently contradicted by various examples from the book. It's so full of holes that however you spackle it, you're basically defending a premise made of spackle by this point. If you could, please, I'm serious when I ask this. Pretend I've never read the book and you're explaining the magic system to me. (See? I even said magic system instead of arcana. Olive branch.) Tell me what the premise is, how the magic works and what its limits are. What fundamentals and principles does it adhere to. Or, if you truly do not understand why I'm asking you to do this, don't bother, because if you don't understand what I'm asking, then your answer isn't going to be the answer that convinces me you're right.

Kurk: Not saying that the Prime Directive is right, but if you really don't understand it, the reason behind the Directive is this: However well intentioned, however much short-term good you'll do, by giving your own technology to a non-warp-capable society, you're guaranteeing they will end up with your own technology. The purpose of the Prime Directive is to allow every new culture to find their own path to the stars, in the hopes that if we don't provide them with our answers to their questions, they will find on their own new answers no one else anywhere in the galaxy has ever dreamt possible. It is, as you point out, a somewhat heartless way to think about it in the short-term. Sure, in 500 years some astrophysicist might discover a new method of warp travel founded upon a principle alien to anything we've ever known which might revolutionize the known galaxy... but for now, there's a village on the southern continent trapped under a mudslide and the closest terrestrial help is hours away. It doesn't do the villagers any good to know they're dying because we hope someone else in five centuries will think of something no one else has.

I personally believe this. I know some people who take it as a given. I don't find it implausible that he simply took advantage of lucky happenstance.

I actually have a theory that Harmony will create a tiny little mini-Ruin. He'll take the excess portion of Ruin in his own Investiture, and spin it off in a Splinter. I think it will manifest as a dark mist spirit, absolutely bent on world destruction, but that Harmony's intent will allow him to exert his power to nullify how much effect it can have, reducing it to something humankind can counter on their own. Just random speculation. Also, we know that the Southern Scadrians are basically some classic Scadrians from Alendi's time that Rashek kept somehow as a genetic reserve in case Plan A crashed and burned. As such, we should expect them to be an evolution of what we know of the culture of Classic Scadrial. This would include hemalurgy, since we know Alendi had hemalurgic spikes as the Piercings of the Hero. It's possible that these were the only spikes in all of Southern Scadrian culture, but it's also possible it was something that appeared at least a few more times in other religious rites. Recall that Ruin had been manipulating prophecies and people in an attempt to gain more control, so it would not be out of character for him to try to manipulate others in power into giving themselves hemalurgic spikes. There might be some independent reason why he was unable to accomplish this task, but we know he succeeded at the very least with the Hero of Ages himself, so I'd personally find it unlikely that he was unable to convince a High Priest or two to wear spikes. They might not know they're practicing hemalurgy, but I suspect that they are.

We're sorta going about this backwards. I'm pointing out inconsistencies, and you keep responding. I had perhaps been led astray by Mr. Sanderson's use of the term plausible, leading me to believe it meant what the word actually means in real life. Rather than give me reasons why my examples don't betray the premise, why don't we start from the other way around. Why don't you just tell me, as though you were talking to someone who had never read the book, the rules of Forgery from the ground up. I like to think that, if anything, I first went into this book giving Mr. Sanderson the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the system would be to the high standards I've come to expect from him, rather than from the perspective of deliberately trying to find flaws with the system. I still think that the underlying concept, of something being "believeable" or not, is an inherently flawed system for reasons I've stated before, beyond which I think the system as we see it constantly breaks its own amorphous rules. In short, I very, very much hope that in future books, we learn that everything everyone thinks they know about Forgery proves to be completely wrong and that it actually adheres to some entirely new system of principles, much like how people thought the Inquisitors were just an odd way to do allomancy and we've since learned they're actually hemalurgic constructs.

Can someone show me this WoB about southern Hemalurgy? Also I'm not sure but i think i see some confusion arising. There are two mentions that might be getting conflated. Miles speaks of the bearers of the 'final metal'. The fourth book is tentatively titled 'the lost metal'. I think some people are saying atium might be the lost metal, but others think the first people are saying it's the final metal.

When I re-read the book, I'll make note of that first scene (I think it was during the mural) when they first discuss the water damage; that might lend some context. For now I'm leaving that whole ambiguous situation to the side. Let me make it clear that I'm sorta venting at this point. I love Mr. Sanderson's work, all of it. I'm currently reading a series, a very good one, with an absolutely preposterous and fluid system of magic, and I'm fine with that because I expect less of the author. She writes great cinematic scenes and unforgettable dialogue, and very realistic characters, and I read her for that. Forgery is still worlds beyond her magic. I just personally see it as below Mr. Sanderson's typical standards.If anyone feels like I'm just being a jerk, please let me know and I'll back out of this thread (or, y'know, try to drag it back onto its original topic). I just sorta need to get these things off my chest. On that note, onto the Forger's Challenge Wall. It's flat-out stated that the wall sees itself as one specific wall, that you cannot Forge just a block or two of it. It's also stated that the wall was made for the express purpose of stymying a Forger, and to that end was made with 44 different kinds of rock. We're supposed to believe that anyone would find it plausible that a stonemason was given express, specific instructions to build a wall for the purpose of stymying a Forger out of "these 44 different kinds of stone" and that at no point in this process did any of the people who professionally work with stone say to anyone else, "Hey, there's been a mistake, 44 different quarries all accidentally sent us the wrong kind of stone, every single one sent us the exact kind of stone, and it's a terrible stone for making a cell out of", they just went ahead and built the cell. And then it's been sitting there, presumably for years at a minimum, with no guards or anyone commenting on the fact that this was nothing at all like the cell they had ordered built. The only reason I've seen anyone give to explain how this could possibly be is that the individual blocks only care about their own personal plausibility, without context (which is... mind-boggling to me, since plausibility is all about context. The water damage comes up time and again, and that's context. Context matters... unless it gets in the way of the story). Regardless, even if we accept that each block changes independently of the others... we're now supposed to accept that a single Forgery relies upon the principle that the entire wall is one thing, not a collection of stones, while at the same time relying on the principle that each independent block is totally distinct without any context from the blocks around it. And yes, I know that the Forgery is never actually performed, and it's a desperate test Shai is doing to stave off fear and depression. However, in two different situations, admittedly one of less than perfect canonicity, two different people (both at least semi-knowledgeable about Forging) are calling her out on all the flaws with her plan, and neither of them mention "also the single task you're trying to perform is simply inherently impossible." This would be like if my cousin said he was buying two horses, each taller than the other, and I tried to dissuade him by talking about how difficult it will be find a stable that matched the color of their manes, without commenting on the fact that he just told me a sentence that does not literally make any degree of sense. As a reader, I look at any magic system with such fluid and inconsistent rules and think that at some point someone will be stuck with a problem they should just Forge away but don't because of some reason made up on the spot, or they'll be in some sticky situation that we, the readers, think they shouldn't be able to just Forge away, but they will because the rules will just change again. As someone hoping that the entire Cosmere eventually get turned into an RPG, I cringe when I think of a Forger on my team arguing from a position of vested interest that anything should be Forgeable, able to cherry-pick specific examples (which are later contradicted in the same book) to support their position.

There's a WoK interlude which flat out says Szeth kicks down a door with Stormlight enhanced strength.

Eeeeeeeeh.... Mebbe, but I'd need to re read that scene. The water damage was first mentioned in relation to the wall, yes? And in the fight, Shai circles the bed, so it's not against the wall. So... She forged the whole floor so that damage from the wall rotted one patch of floor clean through, leaving the rest without any visible trace? Or the whole floor was damaged and 90% was fixed like new but they decided to leave one patch as a rotted hole.

Keep in mind the Diagram has Blades and Soulcasters. Kharbranth doesn't. If Taravangian Soulcast the stone himself, he'd have to explain to the palace staff how he'd done that. The only sure fire way to keep a secret is to keep it a secret.

Yet she has no problem forging one small section of the floor to make it give way, without leaving any telltale signs of the damage this should cause to the rest of the room. And apparently you can Forge just one of your limbs perfectly fine. So "it's a discrete object which can be picked up and moved" might be a guideline but is obviously not a rule. Like I say, this is why I dislike plausibility. It's a writer's crutch. When it would be too simple for her to just change a few blocks, she's magically not allowed to change a few blocks. When the writing demands that she change a few planks on the floor, there's no difficulty changing a few planks on the floor. The rules shift depending on what the story "needs". It's like reading DC comics. In this issue, Superman doesn't flinch when you punch him. In this one, he gets knocked around a bit.

Pits of Elantia... or pits of ELANTRIS?!?!!? The State of Sanderson blog post on his site does say he will have to write the sequels to Elantris before the second Mistborn trilogy, because they will be relevant. I'm just saying. The name cannot be a coincidence.

Reading what you posted... I see someone ask, "Is it A or B?" and he answers "No." ... I'm confused. I couldn't see much WoB on the others, do we get a definitive answer or do you reach your own conclusions?

And I'm not trying to say you didn't say it was your opinion, or that you don't have the right to say it. In fact, I made it abundantly clear that you have the right to say what you want. But people can and will respond to what you say, whether it's your opinion or not, the same way you responded to something that was my opinion, or Titan's. If you're under the impression that people aren't allowed to respond at all to your opinion... that's fine, and I will try to remember going forward not to respond to you. It seems a little one-sided that you think you're allowed to tell me you think I'm mistaken, but then you don't want anyone to respond to you. And even then, it's fine. If you want to say your piece and not have anyone respond to you, you're allowed to want to do that. I've got the legal right to blare loud yodeling from my speakers until midnight every night if I so desire. I realize this would inconvenience those around me, so I don't. All I'm asking is that you realize that your desire to state your own opinion without anyone being allowed to respond to you has shown a tendency to derail threads. Titan and I, and maybe some other people, wanted to actually discuss the meat of the issue at hand, which is the ethical considerations of fabrial science. Instead, we're now discussing how people are or aren't allowed to respond to you. And this isn't the first time a thread you've joined has turned into this discussion. Again, I'm not in any way saying what you do or do not have the right to do. I'm only saying, hopefully your own goals aren't to derail conversations, but to have a forum for your musings. I'm hoping that we can all work together and find a way for everyone to get what they want. We'll get to keep a scholarly debate going on-topic in our threads, and you get to muse aloud. I've suggested one method by which we can go about it; I'm sorry that it sounded like I was trying to tell you what you can or cannot do. If you have a different suggestion that would achieve the same result, I am all ears.

Pathfinder: First, in the Starfalls vision, the Radiant uses the Regrowth fabrial and does not seem to think it's screaming. And Shallan and Renarin seem fine with the Oathgate. Second... I'm not sure how you want us to respond to you. You enter debates, poke sticks in the wheels of arguments, and when people try to defend themselves, you act like you can't understand why they're trying to debate you when you clearly don't want to debate. You admit that what you say is moonshine, but you sound serious when you say it and you use a lot of words. I can appreciate that you have every right to say your piece, but can you understand that what you end up doing is derailing actual discussion? You can continue to speculate as much as you want, and not I or anyone else has the right to ask you to stop. I just hope you're aware that when you do it, you're making it harder for those of us who want to have a scholarly debate to do so. Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds if, instead of jumping in to a topic you admit you don't actually want to debate, you can start your own thread somewhere else and muse to your heart's content; that way, everyone wins.

Algebra class on Roshar has got to have the WEIRDEST word problems ever. "Wanda Windrunner has one emerald broam, charged six days ago. Bobby Bondsmith has five bloodmarks worth of clearchips, fresh charged from a Highstorm. Using only this stormlight, they each make a Full Lashing; his is a circle forty centimeters in radius, hers is a equilateral triangle with sides thirty centimeters in length. Which Lashing will give out first, and how long from that moment until the second one gives out?" I thought the opposite; doesn't Zahel comment that the Purelake reminds him of T'Telir, and he doesn't go there because he hates being reminded of T'Telir? Minor point; in Warbreaker, early on, he comments that he wishes he could stay inconspicuous, but that's almost impossible with his aura from all the Breaths he got from that rebel guy. While never flat-out stated, it's very strongly implied that he can only hide his one Divine Breath, and he has no capacity to hide the aura he gets from other Breaths.

...and then fell immediately unconscious and woke up (blind without the tin he'd become dependent on, yes?) bleeding in a house on fire. No trauma whatsoever. How do you people spend your regular tuesday evenings? j/k