Oudeis

...Gah, other person with username starting with A whose derivation I do not know and a generic 17s avatar... it's possible I've been conflating you two, Anselem and Arondell. My apologies, on yet another level. I am just going to be here in this corner for a while...

Possibly valid concerns. I personally feel like it's a stretch to think this is what caused their rift, since much more obvious examples abound, but we know relatively little about them. It could totally be a factor!

Ansalem: Having woken up, I re-read the post I made last night. I came across as much more of a jerk than I really am. I should know better than to post right before bed. I apologize for my tone, though not for the content. I still disagree with you. I've written out three times now a rebuttal to what you've said, and frankly I cannot find ways to say it without seeming insulting. To be fully blunt, I think you've taken your thesis, "Teft knows what he's talking about," and now you're changing and interpreting the evidence to support your thesis, rather than looking at the evidence and allowing conclusions to rise. Showing you that your interpretation is flawed is never going to change your mind, because you will always find a new way to interpret it. You said you were part of the old conversation, so there's really nothing new for me to say. You've brought up no points I didn't address in the old conversation, so rehashing my half will do nothing but increase contention. Pulse: I don't see why that's ridiculous. The first time Kaladin picks up a staff, he beats a boy with actual training bloody with it, and only loses when he makes himself stop in mid-swing. Shallan could draw like a master from an impossibly young age. Why is it so preposterous to think that if a baker bonded an Honorspren, he'd suddenly be good with a spear? Why is that more ridiculous than Kaladin being good with the staff the first time it's handed to him, or him suddenly losing that skill when the Bond is weakened? Cemci: You seem to have fallen into the assumption that Teft can be trusted when it comes to matters of Radiancy, as you cite him twice as examples. I just can't even start this conversation again.

That isn't even close to what I'm saying. Teft's statement was clear. The bond can perfect, but it cannot grant skill. Teft was absolutely certain that while Kaladin might be faster, stronger, with more endurance due to the bond, 100% of his skill came from himself, not from the bond. I'm saying we know, for a fact, that's not true. Sure, he's trained a ton, for years, and even when his supernatural talent is stripped from him he's still got his training to fall back on. But Teft was wrong. A portion of Kaladin's skill came from the bond. Nope. Teft is unequivocal. The Bond might enhance Kaladin's physical attributes, but it cannot grant any skill at all. And from the very first time Kal picked up a staff, Syl's bond was there to make him supernaturally good. The very first time he ever fought, in his entire life, without supernatural skill was when he jumped into a chasmfiend's mouth. That was his first experience in literally ever fighting without magical talent. Eh... It is technically the case that Teft knows some things most people do not. The problem is, he also THINKS he knows a bunch of stuff about which he is flat wrong. I would much rather someone like Sigzil, who knows absolutely nothing, but is able to start building real knowledge from actual data, as opposed to someone like Teft, who has a great many things he is sure is right, when something like 75% of them are wrong. Better to be unsure, then sure-but-wrong. Of course, best ever is someone like Jasnah, who has dug through a great many records, does her own tests, and is trained in how to separate fact from fiction from ancient reports.

Well... keep in mind that Inquisitor =/= Mistborn. But yeah, they could make an Inquisitor. I'm not sure that specifically is their goal, so much as just, "get two or three metallic traits ourselves." Maybe a few of them want it all.

In the physical realm, yes. I suppose I should have said OF the Physical Realm. Everyone can see Pattern. He's not one of the spren who can hide, and I believe there was a recent WoB saying no one is SprenBlind. But, he doesn't seem to obey the laws of physics. He can turn tumblers in a lock, but he travels beneath the surface of things and floats without apparent support. What I was asking was, is part of the smoke floating upwards because it's less dense than the surround air? Or is it floating because it's got only a passing relationship with physical laws? Will reply to the rest of it when I wake up in the morning...

"It's us." That's explicit proof that it IS the Bond. She doesn't say, it's just you. She admits, this "talent" he has with the spear, it's because of both of them, not just him. Without the bond, he wouldn't have it. That is flat-out corroboration that Teft is wrong. If it were something solely of Kaladin without Syl's influence, unchanged by the Bond, how does it make any sense for her to reply, "It's us"? You see the word "talent" and are making the assumptive leap that all talent must be natural-born. This time, the talent is coming from the bond. Shallan's "talent" at drawing is clearly supernatural; as much practice as she's had, no one in real life, not even people with "photographic memory", can do what she does. It's a talent. And it's supernatural. Just like Kaladin's fighting is a talent, and it's supernatural. She's making the analogy to make him feel better, because he thinks that being given fighting talent is somehow "cheating" and she's saying, different people have different levels of talent for different reasons. It's no more "cheating" for you to have skill with the spear by virtue of a nahel bond, than it is for an excellent flautist to have skill with the flute by virtue of being born that way. This keeps being a sticking point with us... what we're currently discussing is whether or not Teft is an expert. You can choose to take everything he says at face value if you'd like, but if you're going to try to prove the point "Teft is an expert" you cannot use "because Teft says he is" as an argument. It assumes the premise. If you, as you say, choose to believe Teft, more power to you. But you have to understand that that's not a rational point in favor of the idea that Teft actually is an expert; you must provide outside corroboration before it can be taken as fact. I've proven Teft wrong many times. You've proven him right about random scraps of information too vague to be of any use, and too vague to disprove. I don't even know what to say anymore. We're reading the same passage. Syl admits that Kal's fighting skill is partially due to her. And you're saying it's proof positive that she has nothing to do with it. I can't think of what else to say. In the other thread... I may have been guilty of a bit of hyperbole. As I've said here, I obviously do at least consider what Teft says to be a starting point. I was sort of making fun of how certain he is when he's usually pretty wrong, or vague, or finally admits he simply doesn't know. I don't think I ever really meant that I'd assume the opposite if he says something (though about Kaladin's fighting skills, he's obviously dead wrong), and I'm sorry I wasn't more clear that I was making fun of him, rather than making a serious point.

"Never call a Releaser a Dustbringer. It creates... Friction"

Kaladin's abilities: You point out Teft saying a thing, and then follow it up with a simple, "This is corroborated." Is it? I do not believe it is. Nowhere in either book is there evidence that Kaladin's skill is wholly natural, and there is a ton of evidence that it is not. Do you have any of this corroborating evidence? We all already knew that Teft claims to be an expert; the question now is, is he? Teft's own self-assessment is not, I think, an unbiased source. The final passage, about Radiants having every power... note at the end, Teft is cut off. I notice you don't include the next few lines, wherein Kaladin says, "That's can't be true, why would someone both flying if they can just teleport?" To which Teft replies first with silence, and then, "i don't know." The statement is NOT true in and of itself, because it's obvious Teft believes every Radiant had every Surge, and we know that's false. If Teft knew that different Orders had different abilities, presumably he would have said that, instead of saying he didn't know how his obviously contradictory statement could be true. I'm not talking about it invalidating everything else he says; my argument is not, "Teft doesn't know literally anything about the Radiants," my argument is, we cannot accept something as true just because Teft says it is. The fact that he has a few details right, but others wrong, is evidence that he cannot be trusted blindly when he tells us things we don't yet know are true. For the other two points... those are vague, and incredibly minor. in fact, for one of them, I'm not actually going to accept that "a large organization made up of people had a bit of internal conflict" is a "fact" that Teft is special for knowing. So basically, I'm conceding that Teft was aware the that Knights swore oaths. Compare this to him being wrong on Kaladin's skill, him being wrong on every Radiant having every Surge, him having no idea how a Radiant Invests... The original contention, which I disagreed with, is that if Teft says something is so, we should accept it as likely until proven false. He's been wrong more often than he's been right. If he says something about the Radiants, I'm prepared to accept that it might contain some small measure of truth, once separated from the chaff of his misunderstandings and false convictions. I am not willing to believe it is simply true. And it's worth pointing out, from the quote above, the whole "squire" thing isn't even based on anything Teft knows by being an "expert". He admits, he's only saying it because he's been hearing about Dalinar's visions. This isn't even Envisager lore! Literally anyone who has read the same text knows as much as Teft does. To restate, I actually do agree that the Bridgemen are almost certainly Squires, and almost certainly Kaladin's Squires. I also do believe the Lopen is a Squire, though I'm less positive, and that he's Kaladin's Squire, although wouldn't it be cool if he were Shallan's? I just don't think that Teft saying it should weigh the argument in either direction very strongly. Finally, I'm a little miffed that you cut off your quote when you did. You must've read the next few lines and realized it cut your argument to shreds. The fact that you included it anyway, trimmed to erase context, is poor form. EDIT: Where arguments have failed to sway me, an anonymous downvote has done the job. I have changed my mind, and officially concede that Teft is, in fast, an expert in all things Surgebinding.

Well, from what we can tell, you think faster; this doesn't mean you think any better. And any other feruchemist could think super-fast, just not as often as you, and you don't have to recharge. So... the most consistently fast-thinking feruchemist? And also rioting happens. Possibly super-powerful rioting.

I am not up to speed on "mandates". I confess I don't know that I agree with the underlying premise, and it got very big very fast, so I did not read much of it. Is there a cliff's notes that someone can explain it to me? You bring up excellent questions; I have speculation, and nothing else, to mention in return, most of which I've already said. We know Nightblood emits black smoke when drawn; it's speculated (and if I'm not mistaken, confirmed by WoB? Anyone have it to hand?) that the black smoke is "waste" from Nightblood's use of Investiture, specifically Breath as to date that's all we've seen. What happens to the smoke? Why does some go up, and some go down? Is it physical in nature, and is it responding to simple density? Are they two products of the same process? Are they physical projections of something inherently spiritual in nature, and therefore obeying laws other than physics? We know he draws exponentially more Breath the longer he's drawn; is the output of smoke commensurate? What happens to the smoke? Does it simply dissolve into the air into invisibility? Is there a danger to inhaling it? A benefit? Could it be bottled? Condensed? Sublimed? Made into a spike and used to hemalurgically steal a trait? Can it be used to reconstitute Investiture? What, really, is Breath? We know that normal people on other planets are closer to a person on Nalthis with their native Breath than a Drab; so then, is a Breath actually direct bits of Endowment's Investiture? Does she get weaker as more humans on Nalthis are produced, like Ruin and atium? Is it more like Preservation and the bit of himself put into humans, which I've always speculated is a set amount used to make a process, rather than an amount that fluctuates with how many humans are alive or dead. So is Nightblood taking parts of Endowment's personal power? Or just destroying something constructed via Endowment's power? We have been told that "spren" exist on every shardworld, it's just that they're only visible in the physical world on Roshar (that we've seen). Does every Tineye on Scadrial, drawing out Preservation's power, produce twin streams of black smoke, but it's not visible to the naked eye? EDIT: Torn between "upvote" and "BOO" for the Bloviate Nightblodium line...

He tells Kaladin that every Radiant has every Surge. I'll try to find the quote when I get home from work today. Exactly how many things that he says about the Radiants ends up being true? From what I can recall, he knows the First Oath, and he is aware that Stormlight somehow gets from spheres to inside of people, though he has no idea what the mechanism is. I cannot, off the top of my head, recall anything else he says about them that we know for sure one way or the other is true. There's also the fact that we have from his perspective, when he watches Kaladin fight, that nothing about a Radiant will make them fight better. I get into large, contentious debates about it, but from all the evidence I can see, I literally don't understand how anyone can believe Kaladin's skill is anything other than supernatural. If he's not getting it from the Nahel bond, he's getting it from somewhere, and it seems to come-and-go with his bond. And is characterized by the wind visibly warping around his body. EDIT: While we're at it, let's attack his credentials. 100% of what he learned about the Knights Radiant (beyond what just everyone knows) was taught to him when he was a child, before running away, from people who believed you could turn into a Knight by trying to kill yourself. How much could he possibly know?

Did he? I don't recall him saying, "They were glowing because they are your squires, which b-t-dubs is a thing." I think he just said, "I saw some of the lads glowing," without explanation. Do you have the quote? Also, I think my views on how reliable Teft is when it comes to the Knights Radiant are pretty well-known by now.

I might be dumb here... I can put it in my sig if it's a thing I've attached somewhere, but I don't know how to attach it except in a post like this. So I'm attaching it. So it can start showing up in my sig. How would you like to be credited? EDIT: Well that doesn't look like how I want it... can someone who is better at sigs than me tell me what I'm doing wrong? Do I have to host the image on some other site first?

Lift implies that an Edgedancer Oath was: "I will remember those who have been forgotten." Someone once had written into their copy of the book that an oath for one order was, "I will stand." Many people assume this was the Stonewards. Personally, I believe than an Oath of the Willshapers is going to eventually be something like, "I will never stop exploring." ... If it truly is not too much trouble, do you think you could mock that up for me? If it will be more than a few minutes of effort, do not go to extraordinary lengths.

Something to keep in mind: Though we've apparently never seen anyone but the Lord Ruler do it, it's implied that feruchemy can enhance allomancy in some way. There's some speculation as to what this actually means. Some people think this means nicrosil can enhance any allomantic metal. Some people think compounding simply works both ways, that if you have double steel you not only get functionally infinite speed reserves, but you'll also be able to do astounding feats of steel allomancy. Something to keep in mind as you pick which metal to double; a mistborn with bendalloy might be able to compress time to an astonishing degree. I wonder if this might explain how that one Inquisitor Vin fights at Kredik Shaw the first time had such exceptionally powerful Pushes and Pulls; maybe he simply had a spike for iron feruchemy, and adjusted his weight, and possibly also used it to make his Ironpulls stronger.

I fully concur that in everyday life, feruchemy is a better option. It is purely a personal option that I am fascinated by copper and bronze allomancy, despite their relative uselessness.

While I personally find this unlikely, it's an excellent example of, "We understand so little about Shards, literally anything is possible"!

Ym was enough of a Truthwatcher to use Surges, and barely saw, let alone spoke with, his spren. I, too, believe the Lopen is a squire. I'm just trying to make a distinction. I see a lot of people post theories on the boards, using as evidence things people assume but don't actually know. Sometimes I get a little pedantic about it; I'm sorry if this was one of those times.

Kay... wording might be important. Was it something he said in the first book, when he was just a guy in the world, musing philosophically, not necessarily right?

Interesting... I had not considered this combination of powers before. Which would anyone here rather? Full feruchemist with one allomantic power, or the reverse? Which one power on the other side would you prefer? I personally love bronze/copper too much, so I'm Mistborn all the way... which one feruchemical power to supplement it? Maybe steel cuz speed is just always amazing... Pewter seems somewhat redundant, eternal reserves of tin are marginal at best. Prolly not weight, easy to fill and frankly storing is pretty much as useful as tapping (thought feruchemical iron is a great addition to external physical allomancy, whether or not it's being compounded...). We're not positive what copper does. Never having to sleep again seems cool on the surface, but my dreams are awesome and I would get bored overnight. Maybe if I lived in not as bad a neighborhood. It would also get expensive... either being out at a place where I have to buy things to stay there, or at a minimum all the power to light my home and play video games. Mental speed might be awesome; eternal mental speed without any other power is marginal, but would get huge returns from the physical metals. Brass is like iron; marginally useful in limitless quantities, and as good to store as to tap. The spiritual metals are all poorly understood; infinite luck sounds good but I'm wary about trusting my fate to something so poorly controlled. Investiture might end up being a hand's-down winner, depending on what it eventually means. Connection sounds, to me, like emotional allomancy, something best done subtly, so infinite reserves of marginal usefulness. And who even knows identity, am I right? Infinite health would be AWESOME. But again, in real life, I'm not often all that hurt. Not sitting here right now with a slightly stuffy nose would be cool, as is the distant prospect of growing old and remaining "spry", but not sure it beats the super-human feats I'd be capable of with something like steel. Still, full Mistborn powers are cool enough as they are. Maybe just health would be enough. Although, how much of the edge of old age could allomantic pewter take off on its own? Determination? I'm undecided. (heh heh). Infinite breath has niche use; infinite food less so. In conclusion: I'd personally be a Mistborn with feruchemical steel, or possibly zinc or gold. Any of you?

Please see my post above... The Aon Rao that is Elantris is NOT oriented to the north. It is oriented to the west. If you look at the picture I posted above of Aon Rao with the chasm line, north is to the right. Tilt your head 90 degrees to the right and look at it, and that's how it would show up on a north-oriented map.

...if the issue is him dying of old age/illness, him being a Slider won't help. His death will come as much faster as his books will.

We do have one other example of a time someone absorbed all the power of a Shard, using the power as she absorbed it to perform fantastic feats, the 'waste' emitting from her skin as she used it only to be drawn back in and re-absorbed... and, just like I'm proposing, in that case, she Ascended. Vin was attuned via the Well and the mists as a child (Sazed suspects) in order to fully take in the power. Nightblood was created with a mechanism for taking in Investiture. I'm seeing a lot of parallels. I might update my OP, because I now think this scene in Hero of Ages is one more link in the chain, one more piece in the jigsaw puzzle.

We have WoB, and in-text in Hero of Ages, that the Power of Creation cannot be destroyed. It can be used and dispersed, but never destroyed. None of us know for sure what actually happens to the "power" that Nightblood eats'. Maybe the Breath gets broken down into its component parts and returned to Endowment. Maybe something about the Breaths are something generated by the Power of Creation but not the actual Power itself, and therefore can be destroyed. Unfortunately, we have no way to know for sure. The AMA is still ongoing if you're a redditor, but this question strikes me as RAFO-bait. Still, have at! On the off chance he does answer, I'd love to know what he has to say.