Oudeis

Could identical twin Archivists access each others' copperminds? Pigeon carrying a clip = unbreakable secret codes.

By "game", you mean the RPG by Crafty Games? I'm going to continue assuming the answer is 'yes', if I'm mistaken, my apologies and don't bother reading any future. In the books, technically yes, there are non-Mistborn who burn two metals. In the RPG, there are, in fact, rules to have a character who burns both Tin and Steel. In both cases, the answer is Hemalurgy. If you're asking for a reason why it has to be all or one, all I can tell you is that Sanderson made it pretty clear that this is the case, and while we've learned to challenge our assumptions about what 'everyone knows' (like how there's no such thing as an atium Misting), at no point anywhere in any book does someone burn only two and not all metals without Hemalurgy. The rules for a Steel Spike (which would be what you need, whether you gain Tin or Steel) are on page 315. The basic rules for Hemalurgy are one page 285. I'm pretty sure that you cannot start a character with a spike; you have to buy them with Advancement Points (The cost is 2xyour new rating, and since you can never improve this, you should try to start it rather high). It does say that Hemalurgy is only allowed with Narrator consent, and it warns the Narrator only to allow this consent if there is real, compelling reason. To be frank, if you "just think it would be cool" then I for one would love to hear your ideas and discuss the possibilities with you, but if I were your Narrator, I'd try to find other ways to let you express your character. If you do have some story reason why it would improve the game and the enjoyment for everyone (not just 'my character is more powerful', but 'the game experience is now more interesting for everyone'), then I would DEFINITELY like to hear that story, and you might have a shot at convincing your Narrator. Incidentally, how did you find a group? I've been trying to get a group going in my hometown for quite some time.

I doubt if Latin, Greek, Egyptian or Arabic were real languages on Scadrial, so it's possible the etymology is skewed. Nevertheless, I assume Mr. Sanderson's thought process was simply: Feru=Iron=Stand-in for all metals. Chemy, from alchemy, an ancient psuedoscientific mystic art. Therefore, mystic art involving metals.

Well, yes, if you have to pick one or the other you should compound. But if you burn pewter, store it in a pewtermind, and then ingest and burn that pewtermind, you're compounding the massive strength. You can do both tricks and get insanely powerful.

I have questions about the most effective ways to store strength in a pewtermind. First, can we all agree that the stronger someone is, the more strength they can store at once? As in, a Ferring who is very strong anyway can store more strength in the same period of time than a weak Ferring, if they both store down to "just enough to lie here and not move for a while". Not to mention, when you tap the strength, it'll add on top of your natural strength, so it's better to be stronger for that reason, too. If not, then all of my reasoning is flawed. So, it's clearly a good goal to be stronger, yourself, to make more effective use of a pewtermind. So, what's the best way to get stronger? If you're storing half your strength, and start lifting little five pound weights, will you gain strength faster because your so-weak muscles can do nothing but improve? Should you actually tap some strength and bench-press a 600lb bar, to gain the enormous benefits of lifting that much to add onto your own physique? And what about Allomantic pewter? If you're a Twinborn with both pewter-pewter, can you burn pewter, and store THAT extra strength in a pewtermind?

I wish this discussion had diagrams...

This is a valid question, and I think it's something Sanderson answered for us over the long course of the book. Vin's entire "Hero's Journey" has been leading up to this moment. This relies on the idea that the "Shard's Intent" is less a metaphysical Law, and more a matter of a psychological effect. Like claustrophobia; there's no physical reason a small space should cause the physiological symptoms that it does to a claustrophobe, and despite what Hollywood would have us believe it's not simply a matter of being mentally strong enough to "get over it". Vin's early life made her tough. Her training from Kelsier gave her the psychological ability to kill. The killing she did, culminating in her attack on Cett's entourage, took her to the dark depths the human soul is capable of. From there on, she learns to accept that. She realizes that her ability to kill is not an evil thing, it is simply a powerful tool to be used properly. I think it's this final revelation at the end that lets her get around Preservation's Intent and sacrifice herself to kill Ruin. Not mere determination, but self-awareness. Rashek found himself wanting to preserve and so he did. Vin felt the same urge, accepted it, recognized its source, took it under advisement and let her rational mind make a different choice anyway. Rashek felt the powerful emotion that "destruction is wrong" and so he didn't; Vin felt the same powerful emotion, but she'd faced it before in her life and come to terms with it. Though it seems to me that even that likely would not have been enough had Vin not had that extra emotional impetus of seeing Elend die.

I read something somewhere. Not sure where, but I know it wasn't expressly stated in the book (thought it was implied heavily). I will try to find citation, but if anyone remembers this and can point me in the right direction that'd be appreciated. After Miles has his metalminds removed, he still has some stored health. He heals several volleys of bullets before finally dying. I read somewhere that he had needles of gold inside his muscles that he used as metalminds. ...Metal needles. Piercing his body. Was Miles a Hemalurgist? I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but is it possible? Some of his powers seemed extreme, even for a Compounder. Getting shot in the eye? A solid percentage of his brain was pushed out the back of his skull, and he doesn't even stumble enough to let go of the ladder he's clinging to with one hand on a moving train. Gold steals Feruchemical abilities; health, breath, determination, and caloric energy. Miles even says that he doesn't need to breath anymore; I realize that the obvious explanation is that he simply heals the damage as fast as he suffocates, but storing breath would be another way. It just seems odd that he would bother to point out that he no longer needs this one thing that a gold spike would grant. And few people in any story I've ever read are as determined as Miles Hundredlives. I realize this is far-fetched and every argument I make CAN be explained away, but taken as a whole, I think they at least make a compelling hypothesis.

Thank you for looking this up!

Yes, it's my understanding (I'm sure it's said in an epigraph somewhere in HoA, I might try to look up the direct quote later) that Sazed specifically mentions that Preservation based humanity on Scadrial on a model they saw somewhere else; what I take from that is, Ati and Leras knew humankind from whatever the "original" planet of the Cosmere is and re-created humans from that.

Ooo, I like that one. Good trick!

I can think of interesting ways to use almost every other metal, certainly of the common 8. Kell was a master of steel and iron, Breeze and Allriane made emotional Allomancy an art form. Bronze can, with care, provide valuable information about nearby Allomancers and pewter can be used for a surprising number of activities, even tin is interesting when you consider the difficulties of trying to ignore your other senses and focus on one, or flaring it to shake yourself awake when you're dazed. The Enhancement and Temporal metals are all a bit abstract but most have some use or other, at least when they interact with other metals. What about copper? Can it do anything interesting? Like a few other metals, its effects seem to be binary; it is either 'on' or 'off'. There doesn't really seem to be much point in flaring it; it's powerful enough on its own to negate any normal bronze, and nowhere near powerful enough while flared to compensate for extremely powerful bronze. It protects you from emotional Allomancy, which is nice, though by the time of AoL it seems common knowledge that the same can be said of anyone with an aluminum lining in a headband. So. Can anyone think of anything interesting or tricky that a Smoker could do? Any stunts that metal can pull of? Even if there's no support from the books to suggest that it's possible, anything not directly contradicting. I'm just looking for brainstorms.

Interesting... I think I have it, though! I should have realized before that stealing Investiture from someone would require Hemalurgy. Also, I think that both people would have to be full Keepers, with all Feruchemical powers. Keeper A stores up whatever traits he wishes in his various metalminds, and he stores up a chunk of identity, too. He is then killed with a Hemalurgic spike, which is then driven into Keeper B's bind point, giving him the power of Feruchemical aluminum. Since he now has the SPECIFIC aluminum power of Keeper A, the spike allows him to access that stored identity, which he has to take into himself (side-note, this sounds like you have to become schizophrenic for it to work). Once Keeper B has taken the actual stored identity of Keeper A, he might then have access to the REST of Keeper A's metalminds, though I still think he'd need separate Feruchemical ability before he could use them.

Obviously, it's been firmly established that Allomancy and Feruchemy are at least loosely genetic. Has anyone ever heard confirmed that it's a purely genetic trait? Would identical twins, by definition, share the same allomantic and feruchemical traits?

I just re-read that and it's super complicated and makes no sense. I'll re-write it after I've had a nap, but if anyone out there who understands more physics than I do gets what I'm trying to say is willing to re-type it so it makes any sense, please let me know.

Can you Steelpush on metal outside of a speed bubble? What would happen if you did? Here's my thought... not sure if this is how it would actually happen. I'm actually surprised this is not something that Wayne and Wax have tried yet... let's say there's a round sitting on a table across the room. Wayne and Wax are standing nearby, and Wayne burns some Bendalloy to set up a speed bubble, with the round outside in normal time. Wax burns steel, and Pushes against the round. He weighs enough that almost all of the force is transferred to the bullet; it's now traveling away from him at high speeds. Speed, however, is relative to time. It's not yet far enough away to be out of range, and it's not yet hit anything to transfer the energy it contains. Wax keeps pushing. Wouldn't that increase the energy in the round? Would this not be a way to create a bullet traveling at mach speeds? So much energy is being transferred to it in such a subjectively short time, wouldn't it rapidly approach insane speeds?

Kay, so we agree that the liquid in the pool is, if not the same thing as the lerasium, strongly related. Here's my question, and I realize the obvious and probably correct answer is a resounding, 'NO' but I think it's interesting to ponder anyway. When Vin took the power at the Well, she could use it, and she even compared it to Allomancy like burning metals, or she could release it. What if you can do that with atium? I realize that the liquid was a very specific mechanism that Leras himself set up and so it had very specific, idiosyncratic rules, and operated very differently from normal scenarios. But what if there's another option for how an Allomancer can interact with a metal? What if you can burn a metal, at least a God metal, OR release it? I don't know if it's an option for every single metal, although it would open up a lot of speculation if it was. But think about it. Burning a metal is the easiest, most natural thing to do. It's an incredibly instinctive process. Why would anyone decide to try something else? Even when Vin was at the Well, using the power felt like the natural thing to do; would she have even suspected that 'giving it up' was an option if she hadn't heard the prophecies? But just because one thing is obvious, does that mean there are no other options? Are there ways for an Allomancer to interact with a metal beyond burning it? Again, this is a special case because the Well of Ascension was established for a specific purpose with a specific set of triggers, so I assume that in canon, there are no other options. BUT. Hypothetically, if there were a way to eat a bead of atium and then release it rather than burning it, what do you think would happen?

Simply that it was Spook. He got the personal note from Sazed, and was presumably the one to tell the rest of humanity, "Hey guys! Sazed is God, now." Not a particularly spectacular or dramatic Announcer, but one nevertheless. But I guess now he's just, the guy who first got to a book.

I realize no one (or at least very few people) put a lot of effort into Allomancy-proofing their houses; they were even arrogant enough to wear metal jewelry. Still, if someone wanted to make a mirror without any metal, how does anyone think would be the most effective manner? Obsidian backing, perhaps? Black marble?

Before I get to the main point I'm planning to discuss in this thread, I would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me... I know that atium was the physical body of Ruin. We know that the mist, the lerasium, and the fluid in the Well were all of Preservation; were all three aspects of his physical body? Or were they each his physical, spiritual, and cognitive aspects? I realize that it's easy to assume that the three things corrolate to the three things, but do we know for sure one way or the other? I know that the 'prison' for Ruin was made of Leras's consciousness; does that mean the liquid was his consciousness? Or was the liquid a specific incarnation of his power, the "key" to the lock, rather than the cage itself?

But again, it was mentioned (if need be I'll try to find the specific quote) that the deaths resulting from the mists were an unfortunate side-effect; Preservation set up a system that was supposed to be useful and good. Unfortunately, a few people that deviated from the baseline norm suffered worse than then intention. I think the quote implies that Preservation already sacrificed his consciousness when he set up the mists; it was only an indirect way in which he harmed some people and even killed a few, not by his direct will. Basically I'm suggesting that the deities of this planet operate by imperfect and not-absolute rules that forbid certain things while allowing for some wiggle-room; after all, Leras very deliberately set up a plan that led indirectly to the death of Ati, something he quite specifically was not able directly to do.

It's also possible that the tiny fragment of consciousness of Preservation was, in effect, insane. It's possible that it actually wasn't smart enough to understand the ramifications of its own actions, which is the only way it was able to break the rules. But yeah, if not that, then I think I agree with the theory that it can harm but not destroy; it never intended to kill Elend, since it assumed that Vin would save his life. Leras could probably have brought himself to HARM Ati, but never to take the final step and kill. If memory serves, much the same thing happened to Alendi's companion, right? In the references in the logbook, didn't it mention that the attacked person was, in fact, still alive? Harmed, but not destroyed.

Aw. Well, there goes my idea.

When everyone assumed Vin was the Hero of Ages, Sazed seem natural as the Announcer. I personally can think of two possibilities, and one that I think is actually meant to be the Announcer, but I'd like to hear the group's input first.

I think this question is the most intelligent thing I've ever seen you say. To answer your question, I do not think so. It is my understanding that there is a difference between a mere Hemalurgist and a true Hemalurgic creation. Enough spikes of the right type in specific right places will change someone from a person who happens to benefit from Hemalurgy, into a creature that is no longer fully human. One spike is not enough to do it, and I think it was firmly implied in the books, if not flat-out stated, that it's a binary process. What do I mean by that? It's not a matter of, every spike is one more step on the road to being a Hemalurgic creation. Instead, no matter how many spikes you get, you remain nothing more or less than a person benefiting from Hemalurgy until the final spike makes the fundamental change all at once. That said, with the "holes in your mind" and your increasingly violent nature it's not entirely implausible to assume that you are more susceptible to emotional Allomancy, but I think that you are not vulnerable to the actual "I have direct control of your body" power until you cross that final step.