IronBars

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar is only at the third. The only person we have confirmed as higher than that is Shallan. 

 

Dalinar was on his 3rd after WoR i thought ? And fourth was in OB then ? 

Isn't there a WoB post WoR saying they were all on 3 except shallan was one ahead ? That would make Dalinar on his fourth after OB ? Or am i getting mixed up ?

1 hour ago, Zellyia said:

I don't think the later oaths are suppose to be that easy to swear.  When the Skybreakers were explaining theirs to Szeth, they acted like almost no one got to the 4th or 5th ideals.  And between Kaladin and the old windrunner who left a message gem, the 4th seems very difficult as well.

Ya but kaladin knows the words for the fourth ideal, in a year you would imagine he would of reconciled things to the point he could swear it, least in my opinion, Dalinar for instance is on his 4th ideal already, in 6months ? Not a stretch to say he would be on his 5th after a year gap, Szeth on his 4th after few months (will most likely need to choose a different 4th ideal, i know) Shallan in a year surely of coming to terms with her 4th truth etc, while expecting them all to of progressed is probably to much, expecting none to of progressed is not believable

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Here's what Brandon had to say on it. 

I think most likely, it's going to be a time of solidification for both sides. Necessary action to progress in war, but boring to read. 

Ya that makes sense, once the characters don't remain stagnant though, thats my main worry with time skips

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I doubt that's gonna happen.

Kaladin wasn't able to say the Fourth Ideal when it really mattered, so I really doubt he's going to be able to say it at a random point without a major event happening. Pressure causes change and growth.

As long as Shallan doesn't encounter problems related to her multiple identities, it's not gonna sort itself out. She also has no idea where Sja-Anat is, so I don't see why she'd be able to finish the mission.

Dalinar won't be on the Fifth Ideal for the same reason Kaladin isn't - he's just not gonna be pressured to advance.

Same holds true for Adolin.

Renarin is clear now, right? He bonded a corrupted spren but he's still on the good side. Again, don't see what would happen there.

Bridge 4 might very well have more Radiants - but do we really need to see every single one? I think we'll survive if we hear "oh and this guy swore his first two Oaths now".

Other Radiants will probably show up as well - again, I think we'll survive hearing "there's now some fifteen windrunners, three truthwatchers, three edgedancers, oh, and there's also a new elsecaller".

Ya thats all true in a manner, but its a bit of a stretch to say nothing happens in that year skip that could cause any of what you said, if as you imply nothing of significance happens in that year then there is no point in the time skip to begin with is there ?

Can't skip a year and the characters not of changed atal, 

23 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@IronBars I feel like Shallan might become pregnant and give birth to her and Adolins child during the gap. That would explain the wedding, and also the time-gap. It might be easier to skip over her pregnancy from a storytelling perspective.

I don't like the idea of her having a child during the time skip, honestly i don't even think that makes sense to happen.

Does anyone know why there is an in world time skip of a year ? I mean by the time a year passes, surely the likes of kaladin will be on 4th/5th ideal,shallan surely would of sorted herself out a bit, completed her mission regards sja anat, Dalinar be surely on 5th ideal, Adolin (if he is gonna) should of revived maya, Renarins role should of got clarity, bridge 4 should have more radiants, as well as other radiants showing up, list goes on and on....

So why we gonna miss all that, instead of seeing it as it happens? 

To be honest the way the wedding was just thrown in at the end  screams of just being bad writing, technically they hadn't even been engaged, just betrothed, which isn't the same thing atal.

Couple that to the point Adolin thought she wanted Kaladin toward the end it just all seemed rushed.

Add to that, that between book 3 and book 4 there is an in world time skip of 1 year, and to me at least it comes across that the whole thing was an after thought and just thrown in for the sake of it.

14 hours ago, Zellyia said:

So there's a few things that have changed since the last desolation 4,500 years ago.  Thought we could poke at these and see if there's anything they have in common that point towards a larger shift in power or change occurring somewhere?

1) The Everstorm.  Several characters literally call it "a new thing". How ever Odium used to transform the Fused, it wasn't by traveling storm.

2) Odium possessing men.  Both the Fused and (I think) Ash are surprised when Odium takes control of Amaram's army, mentioning it as a new skill.

3) Sja-anat's corruption of higher spren and radiant spren.   Hessi's Mythica describes radiants of old saying she could only corrupt lesser spren.  Sja-anat herself says that they have never before "enlightened" a spren as powerful as one who controls the Oathgate. (This one is questionable as the ability could come from Sja-anat's herself and newfound identity away from Odium).

 

Anything I miss?

Also this brings up the question:  Why now?  What has Odium being doing for all these millennia? 

As someone else said the Everstorm is the means by which Odium countered what Melishi did to the original singers. 

As for sja anat its still supposition that she can corrupt bondable spren.

Why did Odium wait ? In my opinion he was waiting until he had a champion who couldnt be defeated, ie the blacktorn. He groomed Dalinar from an early age, to prepare him for his role. Unfortunately for Odium, Cultivation intervened and ruined that

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

@IronBars Renarin himself thinks about How Glys has told him that, he was changed, though he doesn't remember much from before. Add in the red color for co-opted investiture, and even if he wasn't a Truthwatcher spren, and it's capability of a Nahel bond... I think there's quite a bit of evidence as to Glys' corruption.  

Renarin is about as unreliable a narrator as Shallan is, and id imagine glys would lie if he was a true odium spren ie the ones the listeners use to create nightform.

I agree what you say is most likely what happened but shouldn't be treated as fact when at this point it is just supposition and could go either way.

14 hours ago, EddyJ said:

This is in the Coppormind with a reference to the relevant chapter in OB: “Glys looks different than regular Truthwatcher spren because Glys has been corrupted through contact with Sja-anat. ^[5]. 

Again thats just supposition at this point, coppernind also calls Renarin a truthwatcher which he most certainly isn't at this point.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

In the past she was only known to do so, but she appears to have discovered how to manage it. During the Shadesmar sequence, when she contacts Shallan via the corrupted gloryspren, she says that Shallan does not trust her... And that Shallan should speak to her son. 

Sja-anat thinks if those she "enlightens" as her children, and the only corrupted spren we've seen that would be capable of speech are Glys... And the Oathgate spren, which I also doubt would qualify as the "lesser spren" she was limited to in the past. 

Isn't that assuming glys is a corrupted spren in the first place ? Which we don't know for sure ?

All spren corrupted by sja anat are recognizable for the spren they used be, when jasnah confronts renarin about glys she has a picture of what the real truthwatcher spren should look like, and doesn't remark on any simularities or even question that the spren just seems "off", she knows 100% its the wrong spren. Couldnt glys be the type of spren the parshendi use to make nightform (least i think its nightform, dont have the book to hand)

1 hour ago, EddyJ said:

It’s  stated by an in-world scholar that the old Radiants claimed it was impossible to corrupt a bondspren. It’s unclear when Sja-anat actually gained this ability, but she (albeit arguably) refers to Glys as her son while talking to Shallan in Kholinar, implying that she managed to “enlighten” him. Additionally, remember that she was recently able to corrupt an Oathgate spren... it seems to me like her power is somehow growing. 

Isn't it just an assumption sja anat learned to corrupt bond spren ? Or have i missed something ?

Sja- anat didn't corrupt glys though, right ? Sja-anat can only corrupt "lesser" spren, no ?

Or did i misread that ?

@Philomath i did say very similiar in one of the threads, can't remember which one, but got shot down by people saying the nahel bond would have to of been formed in order to revive maya.

Personally i hope maya isn't revived, i don't partocularily like that arc, might like it more if it wasn't another Kholin being the one to do it,

My personal favourite theory at the moment is my own that Adolin becomes Odiums new champion, but most don't seem to like that one, but i think it has a certain symmetry to it.

And personally i can see how it could happen.

Dalinar was only able to recieve tbe visions/bond the stormfather because of what cultivation did, she removed Odiums influence on him.

Was looking at Szeth's fourth ideal there;

"I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees"

Is that ideal still fulfilled if Dalinar disagrees ? And Szeth can move on to the fifth ideal ? 

Or does Szeth need to find something else to swear the fourth ideal to ? To replace that one ?

@StrikerEZ

Thanks i guess for taking the time to read through all the pages of this thread.

Everyone has there own equally valid opinion on aspects of OB and on OB as a book, whether you or anyone agrees or disagrees is neither good or bad.

My opinion is my opinion and i don't need to budge on it as you put it, just because someone else thinks/reads/interprets something different to me. No ones opinion is more valid than my own, and my opinion isn't more valid than anyone else's, group consenus on a topic isn't a valid reason for changing ones opinion.

I can explain each opinion i expressed if you want to discuss it, you don't need to agree with them though.

As for Dalinar, i find it strange so many think all that was taken from him was "some memories" as you put it, maybe im wrong but seems to me alot more than that was taken.

No need to get mad either, just a difference of opinion. 

13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I still think Jasnah & Kaladin for a political marriage is what will happen. 

 

He isn't just a bridgeboy anymore. He is one of most important people on Roshar. 

They are already allies so a political marriage doesn't really make much sense and isnt necessary.

Doesn't is say somewhere that balat stopped doing that ? Because of the girl hes engaged to or something ? Sorry dont have my book to hand for reference

No at @GarrethGrey my initial point was on how people gloss over Adolins childhood, even tho evidence to support it wasnt a good one, and how people assume Shallans was bad pre her mothers death even though no evidence of that.

Was said in reply to several making a comparison, people just missed tbe point and focused on the shallan part kd the post.

@Dreamstorm @RShara

None of that is actually textually supported, its just supposition, the point in my original post was to show we have clear indicators Adolins childhood was not good, but people say he had a great life etc, we have an indication that shallans childhood pre her mothers death was ok/good, yet the consensus is Shallans life pre her mothers death was bad, Adolins still rosey.

Everyone fixated on the shallan part rather then seeing i was saying one has evidence and is ignored (Adolins) and the other has evidence and is disregarded (shallans)

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

It does. The lover, that her mother had was a Skybreaker acolyte, who then saw, that Shallan was about to become a Lightweaver and probably told Shallan's mother, that Shallan had to die for the greater good(tm) and how that would help save the world etc. etc. They tried to kill her, but without ever telling someone else about Shallan, probably because the acolyte wanted to impress his master, so no one else knew about her powers, which after the traumatizing event of her killing her mother went dormant anyway. Why should have anyone else tried to kill Shallan after that, when she didn't show any Surgebinding?

That makes no sense to me.

Just cos her mothers lover thought Shallan should die her mother was gonna kill her ? Seriously ? That makes absolutely no sense.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Now regarding the general problem of how Shallan's childhood looked before her killing her mother:

First of all, we don't have much information of that time, but we have some things that we can pretty easily infer from things we know.

There is one thing, that Lin probably always had anger issues, but never laid a hand on Shallan. She was the golden child, Lin's only daughter. This probably is what brought her to remember that time as "happy". This continued later, too. And it is one thing, that she hated. Everyone getting her father's ire, while she never did. This is actually a thing, that she and Kaladin have a in common. He hates that he is always the one, that survived, when everyone he tried to protect died. Self-blame. And she actually tells him about it.

But the other big thing is: Her mother had a lover. This brings to think, that the marriage between Lin and Shallan's mother wasn't as happy as one might think. They probably fought - a lot. Maybe even about Shallan. Parents often think, that their children don't notice this stuff, but they do. And they often see themselves as the one to blame for it. This chafes on them, maybe enough to make her pliable to bond Pattern, but what is even bigger is, that we know that Pattern was attracted because of her lies. Children are great at telling themselves, that everything will be good. Everything will be fine. Everything is fine.

What I'm saying is, that a child doesn't have to be directly in the line of fire, to be affected by family troubles. Especially between her parents.

 

Its not reasonable to infer Lin had any issues pre Shallans mothers death

Again just because her mother had a "lover" you cant say that there was fighting in the household etc, thats assuming a lot, the fact we don't see anything like that pre Shallans mothers death is very telling imo, if was something to see don't you think would of seen it in Shallans flashback book ? The fact we don't indicates there was nothing to see imo.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't think, that those memories are a straight lie either. Parents often keep a "happy" facade up for their children. I think, what Shallan is worried about is that emergence of those repressed memories might bring up other memories, which in turn then might show her, that her childhood wasn't really as happy as she made herself believe. Lied to herself about.

In the paragraph previous to this you say how her parents fought alot, which affected Shallan, the paragraph above you say parents hid it from the kids, thats a pretty big contradiction, it can't be both.

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Initially it was thought that in order to form a nahel bond a person needed to be 'broken', because from my small understanding of realmatic theory, that's what causes the cracks in the spirit web, requirement for a nahel bond to form.

Since this WoB came up people have been doubting that a traumatic experience is needed, and I understand how people might double think that is what happened with Shallan. But can you truly say that this WoB erases all in book text of Shallan's flashbacks?

Didn't her mother try to kill her because she showed Radiant powers? Did she just snap one day, or did she show signs of madness long before she was killed? What makes a kid kill its own mother, if it's not because of being a victim of abuse? What about Lin? Even if he was covering up Shallan's crime, he killed Malise Gevelmar and maimed Balat Davar. In Shallan's flashbacks, her brothers were constantly afraid of Lin because he was so abusive that she ended up poisoning him and strangling him herself, crying all the while and denying the truth to herself for a long time. 

As i said in my post, i meant pre shallans mothers death. 

OB - chapter 25 the scene in the theatre - she says " too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn't go"

That quote says she had a mother who loved telling her stories, indicating she loved and spent time with Shallan.

So assuming pre Shallans mothers murder her childhood was bad doesn't make sense.

i personally believe what @Calderis referenced here: 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

 So, in my opinion, there was something pushing on the psyche of every member of that household. 

If it started before her mother's death, it may be partially responsible for the shift from a happy childhood, to the mess we all know. 

All began post shallans mothers death.

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

My initial interpretation of that scene (of wanting to forget the memories) was that she wanted to banish the memories because there are unhappy ones tied in (before killing her mother). Indeed these "happy memories" (from before her mother's death) may be filled with lies, or be a total fabrication. So I think that can be taken either way.

Honestly i had the opposite interpretation, i think those are true memories, and don't combine with the lie she has made her life into, thus wants them gone because will unravel those lies. 

I could be completly wrong but i genuienly think the Shallan we always see is just a mask, same as veil and same with radiant, 

Her mother trying to kill her, (supposedly because she was a skybreaker) then no one attempting to kill her later on, when its not like her father hid her existance/faked her death etc, just doesn't add up.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if her mother had in fact not been trying to kill her atal (no basis for this, just wouldn't surprise me)

I think all can agree Dalinar was essentially an absentee father for most of Adolin/Renarins lives, this circumstance usually results in one of two outcomes, resentment toward the father or hero worship.

Its evident Adolin follows the hero worship model regards Dalinar, that said i think that explains why Adolin doesn't see the faults in Dalinar and doesn't remark on it etc hes essentially blind to it, in some ways its just a coping mechanism, instead of seeing faults in Dalinar he assumes the faults are his and since he idealise's Dalinar just wants to strive to do better to try make him proud rather than get gloomy etc, its just a different form of coping then others we see in SA.

Im curious if the people who downplay Adolins experiences think Renarin had a good/bad childhood ? There childhoods would of been extremely similiar.

Regards Shallan, we don't know how she bonded pattern, just that it was before she killed her mother, so people assume her childhood was bad before that but in OB - chapter 25 the scene in the theatre - she says " too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn't go"

That doesn't make it seem like her childhood before she killed her mother was all that bad, but people assume it was.

They assume it because they think it has to of been bad beforehand, but she had a mother who loved telling her stories, indicating she loved and spent time with Shallan, and a father who ruined himself to protect her, that doesn't sound like parents who are abusive etc imo.

I mention this because of the assumptions, people assume Adolins childhood was ok, they assume Shallans was bad, but why ? From OB flashbacks its obvious Dalinar is a terrible parent, Adolin just deals with it by assuming the fault is his and instead of getting depressed trys harder, that is as much a coping mechanism as Shallan burying the truth, but people don't seem to see that.

We have evidence Dalinar was a horrible parent, we have evidence Shallan life pre her mothers death wasnt bad, yet somehow Adolins childhood was fine, Shallans (pre mothers death) still bad , it seems the opposite assumptions should of been made to me.

Kinda repeated myself at times there apologies.

@Calderis

Doesn't Pattern repeatedly say he was drawn to her because of her deep lies though? That kinda runs contrary to the quote you just posted.

Also pattern says if she killed him they would just send another cryptic for her to bond instead, from that i think can assume theres alot more going on then readers have seen.

11 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin should have a reaction, I agree with you, but he probably won't. He has suffered his father being a useless dismissive overly-critical drunk for years. He has watched his father ignored his brother and refuse to acknowledge his existence and yet, despite all Adolin witnessed, he is unable to blame Dalinar. It wasn't enough for him to start viewing his father through anything else but perfect lenses where he is the greatest man in the entire universe.

It has become hard to believe finding out he had a hand in his mother dying would have enough of an impact to sway Adolin's thoughts here. Hence, it probably is a Red Herring.

I however don't believe in Adolin as Odium's Champion: he just doesn't have the crippling guilt nor the vengeful angry inclinations which are required to be manipulated into becoming the Champion.

Adolin certainly has blinkers on with regards how he views Dalinar, however im hopeful the revelation about Evi's death is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, an opens Adolins eyes.

That would do a great deal for Adolins character, and once the flood gates are open i can see it leading to everything you just said he wasn't in regards becoming Odiums new champion, as i said it has symmetry, and would make alot of narrative sense.

11 minutes ago, maxal said:

Unfortunately, Dalinar killing Evi looks WAY too much like Kaladin killing Helaran: a tempest within an empty glass. It is a narrative element which should matter but likely will not. I currently read it exactly like Helaran... No way Adolin is ever going to think ill of his father. Impossible. This is a pure Red Herring.

Adolin should have a massive reaction to this, if your right and its swept under the rug so to speak i would be massively disappointed.

Actually i had the thought that this news breaks Adolin completly, and from it Odium gains his new champion, there would be a certain symmetry to this happening. 

Dalinar being the original chosen champion, and his son becoming said champion because of Dalinars own lies.

There is alot of ways the revelation of Evis death/cover up could go, i like the one above, but it has to go somewhere imo.

7 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

 I'm more interested in seeing how this will affect his relationship with Dalinar moving forward.

I imagine the revelation Dalinar killed Adolins mother, hid the truth, covered it all up, lied for however many years, will affect there relationship much more, compared to that Adolin killing Sadeas should be like a drop of water falling in n ocean.