Paradox

That is what I am trying to say, what he did wasnt acceptable to one of KR orders. At least not in the way he pursued it. The result of Skybreaker v Sadeas situation would be the same I think, it just wouldn't have played out in anywhere near the same way. It probably would have been an execution or something. With all the crimes that warrant his punishment being stated and proven or something else to that effect. I don't think Adolin will end up being a champion of Odium. I just think he isnt KR material, it seems agaisnt all the KR stand for to act in outright anger when pursuing a goal, Journey before destination and all that. I dunno where I am going with the whole Nalan stuff. I just really dislike him and the heralds who abandoned the oathpact, at least the ones that we have seen directly. One it legitimately insane and the other (from the prolouge) is a gibbering coward. @The Silver Queen, The assassin stuff was before she said any of the ideals. We have no evidence of her using them after she came to understand any of her order's ideals. (not saying she hasn't, we just dont know) I imagine she found ways to kill the other ghostbloods that didn't break the first ideal of the knights radiant. Which seems to me, in most cases, to not allow outright murder.

I honestly don't think we can use Nalan as an example of an upstanding Skybreaker, he was one of the heralds who knowningly broke the oathpact. What is probably one the most important promises in the entire damnation galaxy (its like top 20 for sure), the heralds were deluding themselves if they thought leaving Taln behind would be enough. I think it is pretty clear that he is not right in the head in any way shape or form. Ultimately the heralds aren't bonded to any spren so, as far as we know, aren't actually bound to any ideals, and since they have already forsaken a much more important oath I don't see why they would think it too much of a hassle to break something as 'silly' as the Radiant Ideals. He is following the letter of the law, not the spirit of it. From the ideals of the other Radiant orders we know of, I find it hard to believe that one of them is "I will follow the letter of the law, even when it is not right and is downright despicable". I think he is acting on a corrupted set of ideals. I.e "I will uphold the spirit of the law, I will pursue justice" would become something like "I will pursue justice, even when it is not right". Nalan has ulterious motives in his pursuit of 'justice' he literally says to Lift that her real crime is being a surgebinder. What a load of rust.

Sure Jasnah was cold and calculating when she killed those thugs, but in the end it was a direct act of self defense. I don't think the fact that she intentionally put herself in a situation where she would have to defend herself is actually wrong in any sense. Fact of the matter is, those thugs were actively trying rob and rape Jasnah and Shallan, I don't think killing them breaks the first ideal. Maybe the act of going to hunt them down was against it. But then Jasnah couldn't even be sure that they would come to rob them. She simply made herself a target and it was up to the thugs to make the decision to go after her and Shallan. I don't think making yourself a target is agaisnt the ideals. On the other hand Sadeas was just being a massive d-bag to Adolin. Adolin describes himself as 'snapping'... not very encouraging terminology for a potential knight wouldn't you agree? I mean seriously, just think about it. what the actual hell was Sadeas going to do to properly discredit Dalinar. Kaladin could ****ing fly for christs sake, Shallan literally teleported thousands of people to a mythical city instantly. I think Sadeas would have been publicly ridiculed and shamed if he continued to sow dissention against Dalinar. What i am trying to say is that exactly like how the thugs that night with Jasnah made the choice to go rob her. Adolin had any number of OTHER choices he could have made instead of killing Sadeas. He could have Sadeas finally condemned for his betrayal of Dalinar at the tower. Elhokar would certainly of followed through with that, Dalinar would have had 3 highprinces and 4 armies to back him up this time instead of only himself. It wouldn't have been challanged. I could go on and on about all the other options available to Adolin. The fact of the matter is he chose what is basically one of the worst options in that situation becuse he couldn't see past his hatred of the man. Adolin didn't care about true justice or anything in his actions against Sadeas. He simply hated the man with supernatural and blinding fury and has been wanting to kill him since the tower. This was the perfect and first opportunity for him to kill Sadeas and get away with it, and he seieved it by the throat (see what I did there?) without hesitation. @RIT. The 'skybreaker; actually says "But i had to do as i had threatened...". 'Threatened' not promised, and a threat is most certainly not a promise. Do you honestly believe an order of the knights radiant that is supposodly all about justice would go around making, and following through with, threats to the lives on innocents simply to get what they want. No way in hell would a spren bond to a person like that. Atleast not for long, that would ****ing destroy the first ideal and kill the spren. then BAM no more skybreaker.

Adolin's murder of Sadeas basically goes completely against the first ideal. The first ideal is all basically about the means by which we obtain a goal is more important than the goal itself. I.e it is bad to condemn a hundred to save a thousand kind of thing. Not only that Adolin murders Sadeas is complete cold blood. He takes it upon himself to be judge jury and executioner, sound like someone we know? It does, it sounds like Nalan and his fake skybreakers. I don't think any of his 'skybreakers' are actually bonded to spren... hell in the lift interlude one of them straight up murders gawx for no reason... pretty sure that would completely destroy any of the radiant oaths (unless "I will murder people to further my own agenda", is one of them). Also let me put this out there, syl describes Szeth as an abomination, she doesn't even say anything CLOSE to that about her 'opposite' spren the cryptics. This leads me to believe that none of the radiant spren would ever bond with him, and it seems that Nalan is just letting whoever he likes into the 'skybreakers' without consideration for the ideals. I think Adolin is starting to go down a very dark path, the absolute rage he feels when killing Sadeas is extreme, you could say he was odious in his pursuit of killing Sadeas. It just doesn't seem like a good Radiant type quality to have in a character. Also it is implied that a person needs to be 'broken' to gain the powers of Honor/Cultivations and Odium, something Adolin is most certainly not.

As we talk about the Diagram I think it is important we remember that they are written by a human man who is by no means infalliable even on his very best day. When it comes down to it his predictions and thoughts are just that, predictions and thoughts. Since his boon seems to be varying intelligence its best to assume that no matter how smart he may be on a given day it is still entirely possible for any information he writes as part of the Diagram to be wrong. Either by lack of information, Omission of some of his internal reasoning, misinterpertation of information presented to him, and the fact he seems to be highly sociopathic. Basically I am taking anything he has written that we can't directly prove as correct or quantafiable as suspect. For example "One of them is almost surely traitor to the others", He could quite literally be writing this about ANY group of people. furhtermore he isn't completely 100% certain that whoever this person is is in fact a traitor, this would imply he added this tidbit to the diagram using either incomplete or unreliable information. As i said in another thread I think that this is an example of the Diagram being used to lead us on a wild goose chase thinking one of the radiants is traitor to the others when it could in fact be talking about the herals, the ghostbloods, the skybreakers or the local investment firm down the road. As a side note I think that for one of the radiants to be traitor they would certainly have to have betrayed thier oaths. 'Journey before destination' basically compels them to hold the means by which they achieve things more important that the things they achieve , i.e murding a child to save another person(s) would almost certainly cause them to break the first oath on the spot and 'kill' their spren. Something that I think any of the current radiants would not do intentionally & would try to avoid doing unintentionally like Kaladin did.

While I am most looking forward to more LIft in future interludes and as a future focus character. I don't look forward to having to learn about new characters while leaving every major character from the first half behind (in terms of focus), which is what you all seem to be implying. Lift is simply, for lack of a better word, Awesome.

On Shallan and Renarin. As of the moment there is quite literally nothing there to support a relationship for them. In fact Shallan thinks he is downright 'creepy and weird'. This is backwards progress people. Ultimately we simply have almost nothing to go on for Shallan & Renarin and what we do have puts them in the negative. It had to be said, I am so sorry.

TL/DR: This is a red herring, the wording leaves the possibility that noone is a traitor to anybody ('Almost certain' doesn't mean 'is') and it is writtend by a human with human levels of intelligence. As brilliant as he may have been on that day, noone is perfect for some reason we are taking the words on the Diagram as absolute when they are infact written by a human and thus have the chance to be flawed. In fact I would say that it is downright impossible for parts of it not to be flawed or incorrect. mr T specifically asked for the capacity to save humanity not the ability to. i.e things he learns while smart don't necessarily have to be correct they are are still subject to human bias and the misinterpertation of information. I think that the traitor the Diagram is referring to is not one of the current four Radiants. I think it is referring to one of the heralds, at this point I am thinking perhaps Darkness(Nalan?) is the traitor. Brandon did say that one of the heralds returned for their blade (and the fact that the Shin only have 7 of the 10 and only 2 of the missing are accounted for, Taln's and Jezrien's). I am thinking that this herald broke not only the oathpact but also their oath to the other heralds to leave their blade. Since Darkness does in fact have a shardblade/honorblade. We can't rule out that he went back for his blade. I think this would quantify "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others". I think the wording of this statement also leaves a good deal of abiguity. I think that this passage is the only one worded with any kind of uncertainty (correct me if i am wrong please). "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others", the use of "...almost certainly..." makes me think that this is somewhat of a red herring in terms our predictions. Since it means that there is a distinct chance that none of 'them' is a traitor to the 'others', and that the writer of the Diagram (mr T right?) recognises and can't discount this possibilty. I think we can't either. Ultimately I think we simply don't have enough information to go on about this, but as of now I am almost certain that this is some kind of red herring. The only current Radiant that is hinted could be a traitor is Shallan because of the ghostbloods, but Its been made pretty clear that she abhorrs their methods. You know, since the whole they tried to kill Shallan thing and killed an innocent bystander in the process. Shallan has too many issues about killing people, and though she may be fine with deciet she most certainly NOT fine with killing people who are not actively trying to kill her. I think it will be impossible for Shallan to ever kill someone in cold blood (she killed her father to protect her family, in the absolute direct sense.) Not to mention that Pattern describes the Ghostbloods as 'circling' near the end of the book when making Shallan confront another Truth. Not very encouraging words. Should she stray down the path of the Ghostbloods I think she will come into conflict with the first ideal (Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination), I think the Ghostbloods and similar groups are far too focused on the destination (saving humanity... do the ghostbloods even want this?) and don't care for the journey (methods by which we achieve our goals) similar to Kaladin's conflict in this book over Elhokar's assasination. She won't risk losing Pattern I think. I personally think that she is talking about her mother when she says "I hate you.". When i read through it It seemed rather obvious that this was the case and that Pattern was misinterperting her again (he DOES do that a lot). She is very specifically looking at the illusion of her mother when she says that line and isn't internally thinking about Pattern at all. Shallan even says that she doesn't want revenge, of course she wouldn't, not only is her mother already dead I think she wouldn't want to kill Pattern intentionally.

I just don't see the marraige going through since the main reason for it in the first place is no longer there. Adolin still has the wandering eye issue even when with Shallan, this is something she even comments on and makes a point of her disapproval internally. Shallan was fine putting up with Adolin's inability to commit properly when it was for the sake of her family. I don't think she will be anywhere near so forgiving now. As a side note. I'm thoroughly enjoying how much discussion this is causing on the forums.

From the discussion so far I think that at the very least the relationship, romantic or not, between Kaladin and Shallan has much more room for development. At this point its clear there is some level of attraction between Shallan and Kaladin. Because of how much they confided in each other and their positions as Radiants gives a lot of room for it to grow. But also their relationship has room for conflict, Kaladin did kill her brother and should she figure that out (if she hasn't already and is just repressing things again) it would add an obstacle for any kind of relationship they have to overcome. On the flip side, there is nothing challanging about the relationship between Adolin and Shallan, and Brandon has a history of having romantic relationships built on personal conflict and its resolution causing tighter bonds. At this point with Shallan and Adolin I can't find any possible significant point of conflict for their relationship to be challenged by and to overcome. Their relationship is just so bland, I mean you dont even have the typical unwilling arranged marraige scenario to go off. Since Shallan just wanted to help her family, again something she no longer has to worry about. Whereas I can see a lot of possible conflict and development on the horizon for Shallan and Kaladin which i think is in favour of them being together when all is said and done. I would also just be pretty disappointed if Brandon goes for the relationship that is as of now very vanilla and boring (I mean they are both basically running off of physical attraction and Shallan wanting to protect her family, which she is perfectly capable of doing by herself now) when he seems to revel in writing more dynamic relationships in his books.

I am certainly hoping that either being a radiant grants your increased lifespan or that the gap between book 5 and 6 is only something like 6-10 years, I REALLY want to see lift as a young woman rather than an experienced woman closer to 30+... or worse. Has Brandon given us any indication whether we are going to get an entirely new set of major characters or just downgrade some of the current ones and upgrade Lift and the like? (I don't think so). I honestly don't think I would like it if every major character still around after book 5 were to be dumped into the youarenolongerimportant bin, sure it seems logical that some of our beloved characters will die or slowly become lesser players on the world stage. But all of them going just seems a bit much. Guess we will RAFO :S.

@ssd6 Please teach me how to be concise, you make a fine point about how Shallan views Kaladin and Adolin that many people seem to be ignoring. There is a TL/DR I feel as though the interactions between Shallan and Adolin were nowhere near as genuine as the interactions between Sallan and Kaladin. First, the conversations between Shallan and Adolin are very superficial and lack any real depth. Its pretty obvious that Shallan is merely playing a part when being with Adolin. Sure she is undoubtedly physically attracted to Adolin, but i feel that there is no real emotional attachment to him. I don't think there ever will be considering the only reason she approached him was due to his political standing and power. Since Shallan is now one of the 'four' Radiants and her brothers are supposedly out of danger I feel that she has no real motivation to continue the courtship. Also consider any of Shallan and Adolin's physical interactions, kisses and the like, they are all described as Shallan 'forcing' them, every time we see anything intimate about them from Shallan's point of view she describes it as being 'force'. I think this is something we CAN'T ignore in terms of a successful relationship between the two. This is not even taking into account the fact that Adolin knows absolutely NOTHING about Shallan other than what she shows him on her outer mask. She hasn't spoken a word about her past to him willingly, the only insight he has into her character is from when she freaked out about him wanting to protect her. I can only gather that Shallan just doesn't feel comfortable sharing any part of inner self with Adolin and honestly, I don't think she ever will. When it comes down to it Adolin just doesn't have the capacity understand the hardships that has shaped Shallan's entire existence. I think that without this ability to emphasize with and understand your partner there can be no hope of a lasting and meaningful relationship. Lets move onto what we know with Kaladin and Shallan. Other than the first meeting there is little interaction between Kaladin and Shallan in the first half of WoR. But from what there is, the first meeting and before shallan enters the brightlord meeting, we can see that Shallan seems to be able to get under Kaladin's skin in record time. Even Kaladin admits that he doesn't understand why he reacts so strongly to Shallan. From these two scenes I personally think that their two personalities work very well together and that they feed off of each other very well. I also feel that even with the initial deceit and stealing of boots that Shallan has been more her 'real' self in these interactions with Kaladin then she was in any of her conversations with Adolin throughout the book. To elaborate on that, I think that Shallan truly loves not just scholarship and scholarly pursuits, but the act of learning itself. She quickly puts herself under the tutelage of Tyn I think, not simply because she felt she needed to learn the ability to con effectively, but more because she saw in Tyn the opportunity to simply learn about and master something that she previously had very little experience with. In this sense, blatantly (and somewhat not seriously, i mean its pretty obvious that Kaladin NEVER believed her and just played along) attempting to deceive Kaladin into believing that she is a Horneater princess is one of the most genuine things she does in the entire book. I think the side of her she shows here is the inquisitive and playful young woman that would have been her norm were she not so broken. The meat of the development in their relationship comes from that very memorable chasm sequence. The most apparent thing from the start is how well they feed off of each other in conversations. Their back and forth quips, even the ones that were intentionally bad, just seemed to flow so well. Between this and how quickly they are able to get rises out of each I think hints at a natural connection between the two. even when arguing it is never a one sided affair as you'd expect from a learned lighteyes v darkeyes argument, but a rather heated back and forth with both sides making strong points. The most telling conversation of this part of the sequence is when Shallan begins describing just how she feels, as though she is completely broken inside. She says these things because I think, because she senses if not a kindred spirit in Kaladin, but someone who understands just how she feels below her surface personality. I think she senses that Kaladin could be someone who can truly understand her because of how both insistent he is that Shallan is trying too hard to be witty, to make jokes, be lighthearted and how one of the reasons he doesn't like her is because the smiles and expressions she shows are fake. Kaladin describes Shallan's smile after revealing just how broken she is as the most beautiful thing he has ever seen. From that point on I think Kaladin sees Shallan in a completely different light, both physically (before this he has never made particular note of he attractiveness) and perhaps emotionally. The more important part of this sequence is with the flight from and fight with the chasmfiend. Something changes in Kaladin before he rushes out to confront the chasmfiend, he comments internally about how is acutely aware of Shallan holding onto him from behind. This seems to indicate physical attraction to her. It is worth noting again that before this Kaladin makes no particular note of her physical presence beyond objective descriptions ('pretty', facial structure, hair, eyes, posture, etc...). We then have their heart to heart about why they are the way they are. Kaladin confides in Shallan things about himself that he has divulged to no-one, not even the men of bridge 4 (there is no mention of him sharing his past with them and no indication that they know any of the details). Kaladin doesn't mention Syl in his story, HOWEVER he doesn't omit her because he is unwilling to share even that part of him with her. instead it is because of the rawness of so recently losing Syl ("He didn't talk about Syl. Too much pain there right now.") Likewise Shallan shares with Kaladin everything about her childhood. Her ****ed up father, her mother's death, her ****ed up brothers, Her family's destitute state and even how she tried to steal Jasnah's soulcaster. she doesn't say that she killed her mother or that she can soulcast and all that, but since this is Kaladin PoV we don't know her motivations for not doing so. I believe she would have HAD Kaladin's attempt to draw stormlight been successful. After hearing her story it is clear that Kaladin admires Shallan and her strength of will and character. After having such a laid bare conversation about how broken they are, sharing almost everything of their pasts, saving each others lives and falling asleep curled up together during a highstorm, of all things, it should be nigh impossible for them not to forge bonds. Bonds that in every way are deeper and more meaningful than any she may have with Adolin. It is clear in part 5 that they are attracted to each other after these events. Kaladin describes Shallan as gorgeous and that he craved to hear her voice. On the flip side Shallan completely zones out just thinking of all the ways that Kaladin is simply better than Adolin. The first thing she thinks that about Kaladin is that he is 'brilliant' in a way that Adolin is not THEN she spends an entire paragraph simply trying to define that brilliance. I don't think Sanderson is heading towards a love triangle situation because Shallan's relationship with Adolin just seems to lack any kind of substance. for example I can't see her ever talking about her past to Adolin, and she has known him for over a month. She talked about almost everything about herself to Kaladin as did he after knowing each other beyond bodyguard and random brightlady for no more than a freaking day and a half. I would be thoroughly surprised if the relationship survives even the first half of book 3 with or without Kaladin actually being physically anywhere near the two of them. I simply can't conceive that Shallan will continue to pursue such an unbalanced relationship for much longer especially since she no longer needs the protection of his status (since she has superpowers and all) and not to mention the disaster with Kabsal. Since the only other realistic relationship choice is Kaladin, he gets my vote. TL/DR: Shallan/Adolin = shallow and won't last long (imo), Shallan/Kaladin = not shallow. NOTE: I don't think there will be a 'love triangle' of the type most seem to fear.

I would say yes, but not in the traditional sense (there is always another secret). Though personally i would like to see Vin again, the more i think about it the more i realise that her life was pretty shitty. To say the least. I wouldn't consider being abused for 16 or so years as a street child, having most of the people who were your first and only friends dying, your husband dying at the hands of one such friend and then subsequently dying trying to (unsuccessfully) stop a rampaging deity, to be a 'good' or fulfilling ending for her character. I find it hard to believe that she would be satisfied being dead after all of the crap she has been through (much like Kell how seems to be. Out of anyone in the series i would wager she deserves a second chance at not having a !@#$ed up life. I just didn't feel closure for her character with her death, call me butthurt if you will its just what i feel. /end rant Anyway, i think we will be seeing Kelsier's influence at the very least if not his physical presence in the following mistborn trilogies. I don't think he a person who likes to stay down (a quality i think Vin has too), if he has a means of coming back you can be sure as hell he will take it.