Wit Beyond Measure

Would it? Both Aesudan and Amaram acquired gemhearts to their physiology without too many issues beyond the intentional corruption. Are you speaking of this Melishi quote? The Unmade spren are different from the Fused. Melishi might be the only person capable of binding the Unmade in gemhearts because he is the only one who can bind gods (like Dalinar, Binder of Gods). However, we see that Fused spren can bond with Parshendi (via their gemhearts). I don't know that successful amputation of a captured Fused-spren gemheart would require the Binder of Gods exclusively, but I suppose that might be the case. Removing the gemhearts does not remove their minds but rather removes their ability to bond with spren, where this Gemheart Bond between spren and Parshendi is what enhances both the minds of the spren and the Parshendi in a symbiotic type of relationship. Dullform is the Parshendi form with no spren bond, an empty gemheart, which is most similar to the form of a parshman, the only difference being that a Parshendi of Dullform can still transform if needed, as we see with Rlain who is successfully able to impersonate a parshman by taking Dullform. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that the parshmen were cognizant of why they did what they did, only that this was the reason whether the parshmen realized it or not. They may not understand why they are so opposed to defiling their dead - just that they obviously are, perhaps seeing the bodies as sacred for some unknown reason. I personally don't think Sanderson does anything as detailed as the parshmen/Parshendi reactions to their dead without a very good reason. Parshendi protecting their bodies and the secrets of their anatomy seems like a very natural defense mechanism that could be so ingrained and reflexive as to not require thought, and so may have been retained even through the conversion from Parshendi to parshmen, with the added benefit of being the perfect plot device to prevent humans from discovering the difference.

Where? Thanks. I do think it would end the Singer but leave a parshman since the parshmen don't sing to the rhythms. Actually, I do think the Everstorm somehow magically replaces the gemhearts into the parshmen, yes. I'm not sure if they allow the gems to grow there or how that happens, but it is clear that the Everstorm magically transforms parshmen into Parshendi, and so I don't think that the addition of the gemheart would be a stretch. Keep in mind that both parshmen and Parshendi are violently opposed to the defilement of their dead bodies, not wanting to be touched or examined or especially autopsied. Parshmen were never violent about anything else, in fact. Surely this was because autopsying a Parshendi and a parhsman would reveal that the key difference was in the lack of a gemheart.

I've been thinking for awhile about how the Parshendi have a Gemheart Bond with spren (using gemhearts inside of them to capture the spren) that is similar to the Nahel Bond of the Knights Radiant. More background on that theory is here: I've just barely started my reread and am struck by an idea for how the ancient Alethi (or others) might have created their Parshmen. I believe parshmen to be Parshendi without gemhearts to capture the spren that gives the Parshendi their abilities to change forms. Recently, I've realized that spren are released from the Gemheart (Parshendi) Bond as soon as the host dies, which is why we always see Mandras around dead chasmfiends and potentially why we see Timbre flying around Eshonai's body. This idea is strongly supported by the rebirth of the Fused whenever their host body dies. What if we amputate the gemheart from a living Fused? That would transform the Parshendi into parshmen and give the Alethi all of these gemhearts with the spren of the Fused still captured inside - just like the captured ancient spren that Gavilar is talking about in this quote and IMO just like the one in the sphere he gives to Eshonai. Gavilar just doesn't understand that it wasn't the Alethi who actually captured the spren but the Parshendi, with the Alethi only recovering the gemstone-captured spren from the living bodies of the Parshendi.

And you had spots somewhat near Thaylen City too, right, @MonsterMetroid?

The only things that chasmfiends have in common with Parshendi seems to be that they have gemhearts that can bond with spren, and even with that, the Parshendi gemhearts are quite different (white, I think) than the chasmfiend ones. All other Parshendi forms, and even the Parshmen who are likely Parshendi with gemhearts removed, are easily recognizable as Parshendi. And I would hope that the Parshendi would not hunt their brothers and defile their bodies. I used to think that all gemheart creatures (chasmfiends, greatshells, skyeels, and Rhyshadium) were the same creature with different creature forms, similar to what the Parshendi do with their forms, but all of these creatures appear to be bonding the same spren (luckspren also known as Mandras) where Parshendi forms are determined by the type of spren being bonded. There may still be some mystery there, though, especially with the chasmfiends.

Oh, my goodness! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am loving your entire post so much: the depth of analysis and insight is amazing. I'll be chewing on these ideas for quite some time. As for Sja-anat's shock at first seeing Shallan, that's when Shallan is killed in the palace, OB page 634 and location 12813: "And beyond that, deep within the mirror, something turned—the normal image fading—and looked toward Shallan with a sudden and surprised motion. It looked like a shadow of a person, only with white spots for eyes." Shallan's childhood memories are so hazy to me, but I got the impression that Shallan's father took Pattern (probably found him easily in his Shardblade form) and locked him away in the wall safe in his office, which was behind this painting, after Shallan had killed her mother and her mother's lover with the blade. I think I had to make a large number of assumptions to get there, though, since nothing is explicit. As for Pattern being corrupted, I am not sure. Glys's corruption is obvious the moment anyone sees him (OB page 1085 location 21916) because he's so different from the regular Truthwatcher spren, which is why Renarin kept Glys hidden from everyone else for so long. It seems like they were in Urithiru's library when either Jasnah or Shallan noted how they'd never seen Renarin's spren. And we know all of the differences that Shallan noted and drew for other corrupted spren. But perhaps if Pattern is only in the process of being corrupted, he wouldn't show differences yet. Jasnah says that Renarin is still a Truthwatcher, so even corrupted, Shallan would still be a Lightweaver, I imagine. Unless she fully gives into the Dark Side, that is, in which case she's be a Darkweaver.

The Sibling is definitely the spren of Urithiru (IMO) and the spren of a Bondsmith. I'm not convinced that the wind, stone, spren reference from Eila Stele correlates directly to the Bondsmiths. Many things number three and we've no stronger reason to suspect they are related. The Nightwatcher's voice sounds more like stone than wind, and the Stormfather is father to some spren but of the wind. And isn't the Nightwatcher mother to Wyndle? Perhaps the Sibling is the parent to the Oathgate spren. All three are spren. All three may have begotten spren. It is all very messy. I doubt there is a one-to-one correlation. Why are the stones unhallowed? So WoB confirms that gemhearts from deceased creatures such as chasmfiends (and a ton of others) could be fossilized and buried in layers of Roshar's stone, over the course of time. If you look closely at Dalinar's first vision of the Thunderclast in Words of Radiance (Taker of Secrets chapter), you'll see Sja-anat's spren wriggling her way into the stone to presumably find the gemheart and animate the Thunderclast. In that same chapter, we see a giant obsidian fortress in the Purelake with finlike formations and arrowhead towers, just like the Mandras have, and so we suspect this stone fortress was similarly animated by uncorrupted Mandras spren. Perhaps Urithiru was originally stone in the ground that became animated by the Sibling. With this line of thought, any stone might house the gemhearts that can be populated by spren to animate the stone. This potential for animation might be why the Shin regard stone as too sacred (or too scary) to walk on top of. That's why Szeth views the stones as hallowed in especially the first book. As we progress, though, Szeth is getting more and more comfortable with stones. Perhaps we'll see him slaying many more Thunderclasts in his book, Stones Unhallowed. Here's where others and I have discussed and hashed out our ideas about the gemhearts and stone (among other gemheart bonds): Storms, I love the way Sanderson plants thousands of clues several books in advance! Yes, sometimes we need a hero to slay a rock for us.

Mraize calls Helaran an acolyte (page 420) and a minion (421) of the Skybreakers, which seems far from squire status. The letter also says that Nale would kill or bond to a highspren anyone close to bonding a (different) spren, so I don't believe that Nale would have given him a dead shardblade if he suspected Helaran was close to bonding a spren, even though Mraize's letter says so! Perhaps Helaran wasn't even with the Skybreakers. The information about the Sons and the Skybreakers apart from Helaran's involvement seems legit, so the lies must lie within the Helaran information.

Thanks! There is still a chance that this could be influenced by Sja-anat, although I'll admit the chances do drop significantly in this case. The first three of four times Sha-Sja get together in Kholinar, one or both seem shocked to see the other: First time with mirror in palace: "And beyond that, deep within the mirror, something turned—the normal image fading—and looked toward Shallan with a sudden and surprised motion." Page 634 Second time in Cult parade: "That last one [Sja-anat's voice instead of Revel's] stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring." Page 731 Third time outside Oathgate: "That last voice [again hearing Revel first and then Sja] had been different. She’d heard it before, hadn’t she?" Page 772 Almost as if they already knew each other, innit?

Not everyone seems to have appreciated PsychoShallan as much as I did, perhaps because I suspect her psychosis is not an arbitrary plot device. What if Shallan's multiple personality issues are because she's seriously corrupted by Sja-anat? The only times we see Sja-anat herself are through mirrors Shallan is looking into (OB pages 634 and then 815-822) and when Shallan's shadow actually becomes Sja-anat, as she nears and hears the Heart of the Revel. Sja-anat is a reflection of Shallan? The bolded, italicized parts above denote where I believe Sja-anat is speaking whereas the unbolded, italicized parts seem to be the Heart of the Revel (Ashertmarn). Twice, she reacts quite differently to Sja-anat than she does to Ashertmarn, both here and on page 731 where she says, "That last one stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring." Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets. Who has more secrets to take than Shallan? So I don't really have any answers here but lots of questions, and I'd love lots of discussions on these or related ideas. I don't think we know enough to have definitive answers yet, but perhaps through discussion we can learn more than we now know. Shallan has always had multiple personalities, but when did they truly start becoming an issue, bleeding into each other and out of control? Was that only in Kholinar or just before? Where has Shallan heard Sja-anat's voice before? Why is Sja-anat so shocked (page 634) when she first sees Shallan in the mirror in the palace? Why is Sja-anat the most feared of all Unmade? Has Sja-anat already corrupted Shallan as she corrupted spren? Is she in the process of corrupting Shallan, hence Shallan not yet giving Sja-anat's corrupted children a home? Is Mishim's story (page 670-676) an analogy of Shallan's crisis, with Mishim shirking her moon duties to be what she is not? Or is the story related in some other way(s)? Starspren? Gemstone constellations? Do wrong-facing shadows always denote Unmade as they do for Odium's Champion? If so, what does that say about Jasnah's shadow attack? If so, what does that say about Aimians? It just seems to me that all of these things are complexly related to each other. I'd love for us to hash out some ideas as to why that may be. ETA: Ash's eyes, I've learned so much from your responses! I've combined and stolen much to come up with an answer, of sorts, that I'm reasonably happy with and excited about, which I describe in this post:

Yes, he believes himself to be in the Purelake. And there's something terribly strange about the tower there, as well: Fins and arrowheads?!! This fortress sounds like it could have been created through a gemheart bond, just like the thunderclasts (and possibly Urithiru though Urithiru doesn't seem to resemble any creatures).

Vo, the progenitor of the Idrian royal line, is the very first Returned, which should make him quite old. Vo was said to have died, but so were all of the God Kings. I'd love to ask Brandon more about Vo in particular, but the question seemed pretty clear on Denth's Royal Locks being significant.

Thankfully, the Word of Brandon has clarified that Denth's Royal Locks are not because he is Returned. Denth has the Royal Locks "independent of his being Returned."

Ah, yes, now that you've mentioned the Venli quote, perhaps the corrupted spren are the same corrupted spren that form the Fused rather than Mandras. I was thinking Mandras because they have that same triangular head as well as the chasmfiends, but the head may just come from the fact that the gemheart is that of a chasmfiend. Venli's quote certainly contradicts ordinary spren being the power behind these thunderclasts. Thanks!

If all Returned have Royal Locks to the point that the locks change without intent (as the Idrian royals do), then why are the Returned so obsessed with marrying into the Idrian line? And why is everyone (including the God King and other gods) shocked to see Siri (and Vivenna) use their Royal Locks? Coppermind, https://coppermind.net/wiki/Royal_Locks, has exactly six people confirmed to have Royal Locks: the five in Siri's and Vivenna's immediate family plus Denth. Ooo, I found a better source!!! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4112

Exactly! I wouldn't say that they Fused make thunderclasts, though. Rather, corrupted spren inhabiting stone-encrusted chasmfiend gemhearts become thunderclasts while corrupted spren inhabiting Parshendi gemhearts become Parshendi forms of power, most often Fused. The thunderclast spren might be corrupted from Mandras, I would think, and the corrupted Fused spren were somehow from the souls of ancient Parshendi. Rainier above seems to have also been talking about the same source telling about crem-encrusted gemhearts (buried in stone) leaving the opportunity for thunderclasts.

Absolutely. To an extent, all stories do this. Those who are significant to the plot most often turn out to be significant in other ways. Luke is secretly Darth Vader's son and Leia's brother. Jon Snow, the famous bastard, is actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. It's kind of a meme. I would say that Sanderson follows this pattern more than almost any author I've read. I've heard folks talk about the gardener (one who grows a story organically as he writes) versus the architect (one who first deliberately structures the story and plans and plans and plans before writing). Sanderson is the biggest architect I've ever read, I think. Everything is tied together and built on top of existing material. Probably ten percent of what Sanderson writes is only truly relevant when you are rereading the story because he places, at the very beginning, so much of what will be crucial at the very end - making the famous Brandon avalanche possible. For the Heralds, we were introduced to modern-day Jezrien, Ishar, Shalash, Battar, and Nale well before knowing they were Heralds - at least half of them, though probably more. For the Knights Radiant, we were introduced to all but Lift and Malata well before they were revealed to be Radiant. And it isn't just Stormlight, either. Warbreaker That said, we are far from guaranteed that the other two Bondsmiths will be previously known to us, but it looks like 82% of the current Radiants were known to us before being revealed as Radiant (Jasnah, Renarin, Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth, Teft, Lopen, and Vathah) and at least 50% of the Heralds. Odds are good that we'll already know the primary Radiants, though I imagine there will be many new Radiants as secondary characters whom we won't know well.

Thanks! Yes, I caught that while reading the scene, when he was fighting the gang who'd kidnapped the priest's daughter. That scene and some others helped me confirm that Vasher was not only returned but definitely one of the five Scholars and probably Kalad the Usurper, though possibly Peacegiver, a good bit before Vasher confirms he is all of these. Even in this scene, though, Vasher only changes once. I would have expected the same of Denth unless he had the royal locks.

I'm in the same boat! I read WoK, WoR, and the Mistborn trilogy a year or so ago, all superficially via Audible. When Oathbringer was released, I was crazy excited but in the middle of another series. And so I wasn't able to start my WoK and WoR reread until after the OB release date. On the reread, I was astounded by how "nothing Brandon writes is meaningless"! I highlighted more than I had ever done in a book, taking all kinds of notes, as well. I was dying to share the enthusiasm but didn't want to be spoiled so waited until after finishing OB to come join the fun here. And then I realized that I really needed to read Edgedancer and Warbreaker, which I've just finished, and the rest of Mistborn and all of Ars Arcanum and Elantris (all on my to-do list). But I think I'm going to reread OB before starting those. Others have mentioned that Azure's sword is definitely mysterious: not a Shardblade but as powerful. Many suspect that her sword is a new and improved Nightblood - awakened metal that is sentient. Darkness wore mondo gloves when handling Sword-nimi, and I always wondered why he didn't share this secret protection strategy with Szeth especially when Szeth almost died holding onto Sword-nimi, unable to let go and being drained of everything. Vivenna always tried not touching Nightblood directly, wrapping him in a blanket whenever possible. ********* So this is a bit off-topic from OB but on-topic for WB: Denth was one of the five Scholars and surely a Returned, too, right? Was he Vo, the progenitor of the Idrian royal family and the royal locks? I know that Vasher says that all Returned had the ability to change their forms deliberately at will, but only those with the royal locks seemed so overpowered by this ability as to not be able to control it. And it seems to me that Denth lost that control at the very end: It seems that, if he lost control, any appearance disguises would melt away to his true appearance. But they wouldn't go through four different changes unless they were involuntarily reacting to his emotions as his life flashed before his eyes.

We all know about the Nahel bond between a special type of spren and a Knight Radiant, giving the spren the ability to fully manifest in the physical realm while giving the Radiant two Surges and the ability to take in stormlight on a continual basis to power these surges. In this thread, I speculated about a Gemheart bond, where a spren is captured inside a gemheart and bonds with the host of the gemheart: Human (e.g., Aesudan and Amaram), Parshendi (different spren give different forms), Various gravitation-defying creatures bonded to mandras (chasmfiends, greatshells, skyeels, and most likely thunderclasts), and Fabrials including Soulcasters and Urithiru. Venli appears to have formed a Nahel and a Gemheart bond with Timbre, as well as retaining her Gemheart bond with the Envoy spren to retain her Parshendi form of power. I believe that we'll soon see another dual-bond among Navini, the Sibling, and Urithiru using both the Nahel and Gemheart bonds to tie all three together. There have been many speculating that the Sibling is Urithiru, including my own speculation in the Gemheart bond thread. I want to clarify that the Sibling is not Urithiru but rather the spren that bonds to and powers Urithiru as well as bonding to her bondsmith. If the Sibling's bondsmith abandoned his or her oaths during the Recreance, that may explain why the Sibling and Urithiru have slumbered ever since, awaiting a new bondsmith to return. One of the WoR epithets tells us that only one of the bondsmiths is always with Urithiru, probably because the Sibling bondsmith will need to stay with her spren that will be captured inside Urithiru's gemheart, powering Urithiru. So, what makes me think this bondsmith will be Navani? All primary point-of-view characters have chapter art to denote the chapters which are primarily their own. Even though she'd had minor points-of-view before, Navani got her first primary POV chapter with Oathbringer in only one chapter: Chapter 95, Pieces of a Fabrial. The chapter art representation of Navani appears to be a giant, luminescent gemheart encased in what might be a fabrial: Obviously, one can argue that the fabrial image is perfect for Navani simply because Navani is the goddess of fabrials. But I would argue that this is probably what makes her the perfect choice as the sole Radiant whose bond is both Nahel and Gemheart. Who better to operate the Urithiru fabrial than Navani? Who better to stay with Urithiru than the ostensible Queen of Urithiru? Who better to be another bondsmith than Dalinar's wife?

From Mraize's letter, we know: And then back in the prologue of Oathbringer, we have: So, the prologue meeting that Eshonai stumbles into appears to be a Sons of Honor meeting between Gavilar and Amaram and four others (one soldier, two fine ladies, and one old man in robes), where no guards were even at the door, presumably because they wanted a very secretive meeting where even guards were not allowed to listen in. My question is, who are the four others? Restares, perhaps Taravangian The old man in robes appears to be Restares. Amaram writes in a spanreed to Restares (WoR Page 1059), saying, "It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor." Amaram had also presumably consulted with Restares via spanreed when deciding slaughter his own men so that he could steal Kal's Shardblade: "Restares is right— this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.” (WoK, Page 703) Restares is only mentioned in three places over all three books: as one of three of Gavilar's suspects during his assassination (WoK prologue), when Amaram slaughters Kal's men (WoK), and when Amaram writes to Restares via spanreed (WoR). The Stormlight Archive Wiki states that Restares is an Alethi brightlord, but I'm not sure that we know this even though Amaram implies that Restares said the theft of the Shardblade was for the good of Alethkar. We never hear anything of Restares at all, which knowing Sanderson makes me suspect that Restares is a fake name given how often he gives other names to characters - Heralds like Darkness, Ash, Ahu, and Tezim or the five Scholars - to obfuscate their true identities. I wonder if Restares is not in fact Taravangian or some other old dude we know well. In Oathbringer (Page 242), Dalinar tells us that he had met Mr. T before "his strange illness five years ago." And then the strongest evidence that Taravangian is Restares and a Son of Honor is this quote from WoR: After Gavilar's death and access to the visions ended, Mr. T seeks the Nightwatcher, asking that he be the one to unite them, which led to the Diagram. I will leave all discussion of the Diagram to other wonderful threads, though it does seem that followers of the Diagram and Sons of Honor diverge a bit. However, keeping his position in the Sons of Honor (if he is Restares) would be a brilliant way to keep the information flowing from surviving allies there. Torol and Ialai Sadeas Torol Sadeas is undeniably close to Gavilar, willing to sacrifice his life for Gavilar's own during the assassination attempt and always 100% loyal to Gavilar despite the fact that, following Gavilar's death, he's tried his best to undermine and even kill Dalinar at every possible step. Why the difference? Apparently, Torol was privy to secrets about Gavilar's true, ruthless and Machiavellian nature - secrets of which Dalinar and Elohkar and even Jasnah apparently had no inkling. How is that possible? What secrets did he know? And wouldn't we peg Torol as Gavilar's closest and most trusted companion outside of family? Didn't Torol do all of the politicking with Gavilar when Dalinar refused? So to me, it makes enormous sense that Torol was a Son of Honor, sharing the same ruthlessness and Machiavellian approaches as Gavilar and Taravangian and Amaram. In fact, Meridas was likely recruited by Torol, as was Ialai. Just like House of Cards, Torol and Ialai are playing this game together, 100%. So my thoughts are that Torol actually dressed in his soldier attire for the signing of the treaty with the Parshendi (hence he and Amaram make the two soldiers), and Ialai is one of the two women in long dresses. So the other woman could be... Aesudan We see Gavilar pushing Jasnah into Amaram's arms. Obviously, Gavilar wants to keep the Sons in the family. And Aesudan tells El in OB that his father was ever so much better than he was: Aesudan knows of one (but perhaps not the other) of Gavilar's spheres, and she seems to have continued trapping more bad spren, going even a step further by bonding. But how was she privy to Gavilar's grand plans? How did she know of his father's work and his ancient (evil) spren? I'm thinking that was because she was one of the lady Sons. Yet again, we see the same ruthless, Machiavellian nature in Aesudan as we do in Gavilar, Amaram, Torol, Ialai, and Taravangian. They all fit beautifully together.

Ode to the Squires Carrying bridges to war was frightful But Rock's stew is so delightful As our powers begin to grow Let us glow! Let us glow! Let us glow! We'll never show signs of stopping And keep those Voidbringers really hopping But if we should start to slow Let us glow! Let us glow! Let us glow!

So how do we know that these characters are going to receive flashback focus in each book? I assume you're listing them in order with Ash's flashbacks being the focus of the tenth and last book? I mean, I get that Brandon said so, but I'm looking for the original source, please. Thanks! If the final book is focused on Dustbringers and especially if we don't learn much about them until then, that plays well into my theory that Dustbringers are in fact Voidbringers - an unpopular theory but my favorite. I'm loving how deliberately enigmatic our intell is on this order. All we know is that they love to destroy things (like worlds, maybe), and that their ashspren (turning everything to ash and sharing a name with Ash) hate Honor and the other Radiants. The Herald Ash doesn't seem filled so much by hatred of others as she does of hatred of herself, though. She loves Taln, clearly, and so if she does become a Voidbringer, I hope that she's one of the good ones. One of the vegetarians, like Wyndle, who don't feed on human souls.

To the tune of Two Front Teeth: All I want from Tashikk is my ten pancakes My ten pancakes Smell those ten pancakes Gee, if I could only eat my ten pancakes I’d slide starvin’ clear to Azimir!