Llarimar

I have actually been thinking this same thing. At the very least, the Diagram is not what we think it is - and not what Taravangian thinks it is. In many ways the Diagram doesn't make any sense. No matter how intelligent you are, you cannot predict the future. T is not simply intelligent, he seems to be Invested somehow - touched by Cultivation's magic. The level of intelligence he reached when he created the Diagram transcends the human mental capacity. In addition, the Diagram seem like a psychological mind game rather than a prediction of future events. The Diagram is self-fulling. If you tell someone exactly what conditions need to take place in order for them to accomplish certain things in their future, it is possible they will self-fulfill that prophecy, not because it was inherently true, but because they felt compelled to follow the instructions. It reminds me of an episode from Avatar: The Last Airbender (the Fortuneteller, I believe the episode is called), where the main characters visit a village with a Fortuneteller woman. She tells a man that he will meet his future wife when he is wearing a certain pair of slippers, and so every day after that he wears the same slippers, idiotically self-fulling the prophecy since he will never have the chance to meet someone without the slippers. I know that's kind of a lame example, but it's exactly how I think of the Diagram. The Diagram is not a map of the future, but a carefully manipulated sequence of self-fulfilling events. Cultivation is manipulating T to achieve her version of the future, not the version that is already predicated, the version that will best serve the people of Roshar or the version that will necessarily end well for Taravagian. Even if T was not under the influence of Cultivation when he made the Diagram (which is unlikely considering the limits of human intelligence), it is still not as prophetic as it seems, because T and his followers are literally working every moment of their lives to ensure that its ramblings predictions are fulfilled. On a side note, I am a bit confused by T's motivations. At first, when the Diagram was introduced, I thought that he was working to become the king of the world and save all of Roshar. However at the end of Oathbringer, he settles for just saving Kharbranth. He also seems to be allowing Odium to gain the upper hand, giving up the fight and just counting his losses when the dust has settled. Was that philosophy always a part of the Diagram, or has T's mindset somehow changed?

This makes sense. Dalinar, Jasnah and the rest of Alethkar probably wouldn't have a huge vendetta towards Szeth, because they blamed the parshmen for Gavilar's death and not the Assassin. They didn't invade Shinovar when Szeth killed Gavilar - they invaded the Shattered Plains. It doesn't seem like the Alethkar-Shinovar relationship has been damaged at all by Szeth being Shin. The fact that Szeth was being used by Taravangian (by his own admission) will probably help to absolve any accusations towards Szeth on this front as well. Everyone saw the parshmen as responsible for Gavilar's murder, and everyone will see Taravangian as responsible for the murder of the rulers of Jah Keved. Szeth continues to be seen as nothing more than a weapon - effective and deadly, but not necessarily responsible for the damage he causes. When they see him fighting alongside them in Thaylen City, they probably think to themselves, "Great, now he's on our side!" and leave it at that.

That's funny, if Adolin were a girl I could easily see him being the most compatible with Kaladin in a relationsihp. Maybe that's why Kaladin doesn't work very well with Shallan - they both need someone consistent and simple like Adolin, who has gone through less trauma than they have and can lovingly comfort them without having to understand. I can also see Kaladin having a hard time in a relationship because he would be overly protective and obsessed with their welfare - if they were ever killed somehow he would be hopelessly devastated and would blame himself. He also can be a bit of a control freak, which usually is beneficial for him on the battlefield when all of the soldiers are in chaos and in need of a leader, but it's definitely not a helpful quality in a relationship. This is one of the reasons why he and Jasnah are so incompatible - they both have very "Type A" personalities - commanding, abrasive and unrelenting. There is still a lot of ground to cover in the Stormlight series, and I am 90% sure that if Kaladin ever does have a relationship, it will be with someone we haven't met yet.

All right, thanks.

On a quick sidenote, I'm still new to this site, so I haven't figured out all the jargon. Does WoB mean "Words of Brandon" or something like that?

I don't think that Aesudan is alive, because she hasn't been treated like an important character so far and I don't see that changing in the future. It seems like Aesudan should be important, being the Queen of Kholinar and Elhokar's wife (and Jasnah's sister-in-law and a ton of other important relationships), but she doesn't even appear until book 3, at which point she is barely relevant to the plot. I was also confused by the ambiguity when Odium says that "she has been consumed," but I think it most likely that Aesudan is dead. Bringing her back into the story at this point would seem anticlimactic and derivative. The only possible plot thread I see for Aesudan moving forward relates to the fact that Jasnah tried to have her assassinated. We know very little about Jasnah's motivation for wanting to assassinate her sister-in-law, and as far as Jasnah's character development I feel like it might important. I could see Aesudan returning to the story in some way related to Jasnah, or at least being mentioned between Jasnah and Ivory, or something like that. If Aesudan is alive, she might try to challenge Jasnah for the throne. That could create a very interesting character dynamic, and might rekindle Jasnah's drive to have her assassinated.

I think this is a good point. I wonder sometimes if Kaladin is a little but too neurotic and highly strung to romantically connect with anyone - he's always so focused and intense, and whenever he's written from the perspective of other characters they describe him as overly brooding and intimidating. Despite being very loyal and idealistic in his beliefs, I think he might have commitment issues with settling down with someone long-time romantically. He has plenty of other social relationships with people, and he might not be "cut out" for romance (not everyone is). Part of the reason I think this is because I can't imagine a woman who would be "right" for Kaladin. Certainly none of the characters we've met so far would be very compatible with him (although of the suggestions given above, I think Rysn is the most interesting). I find it amusing that Jasnah is suggested, because they seem like literally the least compatible couple you could imagine. If Kaladin does become romantically involved with someone, I really hope Brandon doesn't make it cliche or obligatory, as if he just "needs" to have a romantic connection because it's expected from main characters in books. It has to make sense for the plot of the story and for Kaladin's story arc, and it probably needs to be someone we haven't met yet. I have wondered if perhaps Tarah will return into the story. She was brushed over very briefly in Oathbringer, but I think it's possible that she will have a more prominent role in the future (although at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if she never shows up again).

Taravangian mentioned to Dalinar that the Shardplate shields are made by imprisoning a spren that could have bonded a Knight Radiant. I think this line is kind of brushed over in the moment because Dalinar is delirious at the time from the return of the Thrill, but I think it might be important moving forward. What exactly is Taravangian saying here? Were they somehow able to imprison honorspren, or another KR spren inside of a gemstone? If they are able to do that, it makes me wonder if the Parshendi can do the same, forcefully infusing their gemhearts with higher spren against their will. Regarding this point specifically, it seems like the higher spren, up until Timbre, hold some sort of grudge against the Parshendi for reasons unknown: Maybe the Parshendi at one point tried to imprison the higher spren, or maybe even succeeded, creating distrust between the higher spren and the Parshendi ever since. Brandon says that the higher spren are not attracted to the Parshendi, but that doesn't mean that the Parshendi cannot forcefully entrap them in their gemhearts somehow. When the Knights Radiant began bonding with the higher spren and gaining powers, Odium might have prompted the Parshendi to do the same. Before this time, they may have only infused their gemhearts with spren for strictly practical purposes (to plant fields, to design houses, to mate) and had never conceptualized using spren to gain power. Odium began prompting them to imprison higher spren, to compete with the Knights Radiant. Maybe these higher spren, once captured by the Parshendi, became Voidspren - corrupted and forevermore the servants of Odium.

Oh, that makes sense - I thought that Odium was talking about killing Honor. It confused me, because I thought that Odium killed Honor alone, and this line made me suddenly wonder if Cultivation was helping him. But it makes sense if he was talking about Adonalsium. This line might suggest that Dalinar is going to eventually unite all of the shards - not just the ones residing on Roshar, to restore Adonalsium. Odium probably could see in that moment that Dalinar is already beginning down that path.

I agree, I thought that the Mythica was surprisingly knowledgeable about the Unmade. The fact that Hessi suspected that the Thrill, for example, was connected to the Unmade is quite alarming because none of the Alethi seem to know this, and if they did it would likely change their whole understanding of the Thrill and how they feel about its supposed allure. I really like this idea, although I hadn't thought of it while I was reading. The language of the Mythica does fit with the intelligent, thorough entries Khriss provides in the Ars Arcanum of every book.

There are too many Knights in this fight There are too many Kholins in sight I just stepped on a sphere That I'm sure wasn't here When the Bondsmith exploded with light

There is Lift and the Rift and the spren And there's Azure and Vasher and Fen And there's Kaladin there Who at Adolin glares When he takes Shallan's hand at the end

I've been trying to pay attention to the types of people that the different Orders recruit. There have been three Truthwatchers we've seen - Renarin, Ym and the Stump - and all of them have been compassionate, emotionally perceptive and physically weak. Windrunners like Kaladin, by comparison, seem determined and idealistic, and not particularly intellectual. I think that the Lightweavers we have seen - Shallan, Elhokar and apparently Hoid - are complex, frenetic and misunderstood by everyone but themselves (although I'm more speculating about Elhokar and Hoid, since we haven't seen a lot of viewpoint material from them). I also think it's possible that many Lightweavers were also mentally ill, or had experienced serious trauma, since those "trials" seem to define Shallan, and give her the identity complex that drew the Cryptics to her in the first place. The Lightweavers are a fascinating Order for me for the fact that they are attracted to lies. I didn't understand it at first - how lies could be a positive thing, like honor or justice - and clearly characters in the book also do not understand, like when Ivory speaks concernedly with Jasnah about the behavior of Cryptics - "tell one lie and they all come buzzing" (or something like that). However, it becomes slowly clear as you read Shallan's chapters that in a very intricate, reverse-psychology sort of way, lying and manipulating your perception of reality actually makes you much more self-aware and introspective, allows you to understand the intricate workings of other people's minds and increases your ability to distinguish truth from error. It also becomes clear that is not lies that the Cryptics are attracted to, but the fact that those lies implicitly point to the existence of truth. Jasnah says at some point that she isn't sure she would be a good tutor for Shallan because all of the Orders had very different methods. I think that while Shallan may seem scattered, impulsive and childish from the perspective of an Elsecaller, she is exactly what you would expect from a Lightweaver. I find this very exciting - that Shallan is growing and maturing as a Lightweaver, doing things that would seem surprising and unorthodox to other Orders but that are very endemic to the habits of her own. Shallan's dealings with the Ghostbloods, her covert expeditions as a spy and her multiple personalities may seem shady and disconcerting to Jasnah, but they are exactly the types of antics and methods that Lightweavers would employ. I can see Shallan re-founding the Lightweavers with confidence, teaching them stealth and subterfuge, and accepting that her methods are very different from Jasnah's. As a sidenote, I have wondered how a Lightweaver could possible start breaking their Oaths. With Kaladin, it's clear that he is breaking his Oaths in Words of Radiance when he begins acting less honorable. But how would Shallan do the same? Would she start telling the truth more often rather than lying? Would she lie even more? Neither of these answers seem probable, as both of them support the ideals of the Cryptics - that by embracing lies, you are in essence also being truthful, because lies and truths cannot exist without each other. The closest thing I can think of for Shallan to weaken her bond would be if she were to stop recognizing the difference between lies and truths, and began to claim they were one in the same - although it actually seems like she is moving towards this direction by the end of Oathbringer instead of progressing away from it, as her alternate personalities become more and more real to her. You would think that the most basic quality of Lightweavers would be their ability to distinguish between truths and lies, but it often seems like Shallan has a hard time separating them.

I very much agree with this. I think it's kind of overly fastidious to find anything wrong with Brandon's writing since for the most part it's basically perfect, but his emotional resolutions can be very unsatisfying. He writes incredible action scenes, but his writing doesn't often dig deeper into really thought-provoking themes or emotional dialogues - I almost never stop and say, "Wow, that was so profound, I want to go back and read that again." Adolin as a character lacks emotional resonance, and I thought his relationship with Maya really could have been an opportunity to show a deeper side of him but Brandon doesn't capitalize on it. Another example of this I can think of comes from Warbreaker: But to get back to the topic of Shallan, I did think that a little bit too much time was spent on he in Oathbringer. Some of her chapters in Kholinar, for example, could have been removed - her food-stealing heists and interactions with the beggars really felt unnecessary. One of my problems with Shallan is that she's such a cluttered character, and it gets very exhausting to read. No matter how much progress her story arc seems to be making, she's so scatterbrained and frenetic that you really don't feel like she's making any progress emotionally. I still felt like Shallan is confused, disturbed child by the end of Oathbringer, who can't acknowledge her past and can't connect with other people - if anything, she's grown more isolated and strange by the end of the book. I also agree with this. The only person who thinks deeply about Shallan besides Shallan herself is Kaladin and sometimes Jasnah, but they don't understand her very well and they really only look at the most superficial layer of her personality. I think Brandon does this very well, with writing how a character perceives themself versus how other people perceive them, but it gets a bit frustrating with Shallan because almost her entire story arc takes place inside of her own mind, isolated from other characters, and so her relationships with other characters often feel very stagnant and underdeveloped.

I agree with this, I think the word "dream" is too ambitious, whereas fate, destiny or ambition are more reasonable concepts for the Nightwatcher to be the spren of. However, just her name - Night-Watcher, makes me wonder if she is meant in some way to represent dreams (as in a cognitive experience while sleeping). Cognitive dreams have not had an important role in the cosmere so far, but that doesn't mean they aren't important or that they don't have some sort of Physical-Cognitive-Spiritual element or relevance to Investiture. I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon made a cosmere world where dreams were an important part of the magic system somehow. I am reminded of Warbreaker, where it turns out that the "sixth sense" that people have where they can tell when somebody is watching them is actually related to Breath and the magic system in that book. I could see dreams having relevance in a similar sort of way - something normal that everyone experiences, but that Brandon somehow relates to magic or the Cognitive Realm. So if we're separating dreams into ambition dreams (I dream of one day flying!) and cognitive dreams (I dreamed last night about flying), then I think it's more likely the Nightwatcher is the spren of cognitive dreams, and not actually the dream of ambition, fate or destiny. It is convenient if she is the spren of both types of "dreams" for my proposed theory, but I realize that doesn't make a lot of sense since those two definitions of the word are really only merged from an English-language perspective.

Plus, Cultivation erased from Dalinar's memory that she blessed him specifically. She might do that to everyone she speaks with, including Lift.

That's a really good point, I had forgotten that Dalinar's boon was not permanent, because it was given by Cultivation. It would be very interesting if Cultivation instead of the Nightwatcher had also blessed Lift, to see how Lift's curse/boon changes and develops over the course of the story. And it seems like Lift's abilities are positioned specifically to interfere with Odium (and maybe even Honor, who knows what Cultivation's motivations are) - they are not just random abilities that the Nightwatcher might have given, so it seems logical that Cultivation was involved. The Nightwatcher is just a force of nature, like all spren - she seems much less sentient and wise than Cultivation, so I don't think she would have the intelligence to give out boons and curses for the purpose of undermining Odium without Cultivation's help.

I think this is true, but Lift says that her dreams showed her "a life she couldn't have," which isn't typically how we think of dreams, and makes me think that something might be going on with Lift. I don't know if Lift was given her boon specifically by Cultivation or the Nightwatcher, but I am not sure if it makes a huge difference. The Nightwatcher is just a pawn of Cultivation, and I feel like Cultivation could force her to obey her desires if she wanted to. The fact that Dalinar was touched by Cultivation specifically didn't seem to matter to me very much - it was almost like Brandon just wanted us to meet Cultivation as a character, because the actual outcome of the curse and boon could have been given by the Nightwatcher and it wouldn't really have made a difference. Plus I think that Cultivation directly interfering in the Nightwatcher's boons is extremely rare, so it seems unlikely that two of the characters in the story would have it happen to them.

This is a really interesting idea. I hadn't considered the Unmade to be godspren of Odium, but rather something separate entirely from other spren. However, it makes sense if they are godspren of Odium, rather than something else. As far as who might potentially bond Sja-anat, for some reason the first person I thought of was Moash. I think that Sja-anat might possibly be trapped in Kholinar (although I am not sure), or at least not be able to leave Kholinar in the Physical Realm without Odium's permission - I think he sent two of the Unmade there specifically to accomplish his designs. Moash is in Kholinar, with Sja-anat, so it would be interesting if he started bonding her - if she was able to convince him Moash that Odium was evil, Moash could start working with Sja-anat covertly and would become a spy for the Knights Radiant behind enemy lines. This could potentially be a way for Moash to progress without technically becoming a good guy or following the typical redemption story arc. I think that if Moash was just a mindless slave of Odium, it would be pretty boring and his character would start to feel like a robot (which is unfortunately how I think Amaram stated to seem at the end of Oathbringer). But if Moash bonded Sja-anat it would add a really interesting element to his character development and his classification as a "good guy" or "bad guy."

I have been trying to figure out what Lift's boon and curse are. I think that her boon is that she can metabolize food into Stormlight (although there might be more to it than that). I used to think that her curse might therefore be, on the flip side, that she cannot draw in Stormlight. There was a discussion thread started a few weeks ago that I found, where this was confirmed - Lift can only derive Stormlight from food, which could be seen as both a blessing and a curse. But there are several reasons to believe that Lift's curse has something to do with nightmares. There is a line in Edgedancer seems to suggest that Lift doesn't like falling asleep, and at the time I thought it was because her curse was having frequent nightmares. Looking back, I am much less certain that this line actually suggests Lift has nightmares, although at the time I read it I was very certain. But there is some evidence in Oathbringer to suggest I might be right. For one thing, we don't know what the Nightwatcher is the spren of - I'm pretty sure this was discussed in an earlier thread. The Stormfather is the spren of the storm, the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru (possibly), and I think that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams. It would make a lot of sense, since people go to the Nightwatcher to make their dreams come true, and she rewards them with something good (like a dream) and something bad (like a nightmare). This is further suggested in OB when Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher. So I think it's a real possibility that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams. There is an element in Oathbringer that makes me think that Dalinar's visions are sort of like dreams, and so it seems plausible that the Nightwatcher might be able to influence them - the fact that Lift can enter Dalinar's visions. Because Lift can enter his visions, it makes me wonder if her curse is somehow related to the nightmares of other people. I think that the Nightwatcher, being the spren of dreams, cursed her so that every time she sleeps, she sees other people's dreams - "a life she couldn't have" - or other people's nightmares - " a life that terrified her." So Lift is able to enter Dalinar's visions because they are essentially dreams. The Stormfather himself makes a comment when Lift appears that makes it seem like that the Nightwatcher somehow orchestrated Lift's ability to enter the visions. I think it seems possible that the Nightwatcher actually extended her powers to Lift. The Nightwatcher is a spren, and Lift is more sprenlike than normal humans - she is partially in the Cognitive realm at all times, which allows her to touch Wyndle. Lift is also able to turn food into Stormlight, and the Nightwatcher is very connected with Cultivation, who is connected with growth, food and vegetation. And Lift can enter other people's dreams, while the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams (according to my theory). I am starting to think that Cultivation is launching a major plot behind the scenes to topple Odium in a way he least expects it, and that her plan has something to do with her possible influence over Taravangian, and her possible influence over Lift. I am not sure how Lift's potential ability to see other people's dreams relates to her boon and curse, or if I am wrong about this whole thing, but it's definitely interesting to think about.

Me as well, I think Rysn is a really interesting character and I would like to see more of her. Although I wouldn't be surprised if she remains a background character for awhile longer, just because there are so many other important characters circulating in the plot. About Rysn, I've wondered if she will regain the use of her legs if she becomes a Knight Radiant. I think it's very interesting that Kaladin's slave brands have never healed and are apparently unaffected by Stormlight - it's almost like the Stormlight realizes they're an important part of his identity, and that he should never hide them or forgot how he received them. In the same way, I wonder if Rysn being crippled is also an important part of her identity - something that she needs to own and accept. Especially after Lopen grew back his arm and one of the bridgemen (don't remember which one) regained his legs, I think it would be very interesting if Rysn remained disabled. And I'm also looking forward to seeing what her larkin can do, and whether it will grow into a full-scale dragon creature. It might be possible that Rysn will not become a Knight Radiant, but that instead she will become prominent in the story as a sort of dragon-riding warrior (larkin-rider), flying on his back with a special harness for her legs.

This is something I've definitely noticed. Going through Dalinar's flashbacks, I started to think, geeze, I want to like this guy buy you're making it really difficult for me - how do you redeem a character who murdered an entire city of innocent people including his wife? And then the fact that Szeth has suddenly been appointed as Dalinar's personal bodyguard, overlooking the fact that he murdered Gavilar and half the rulers of Roshar. This is the reason why Amaram has always been a confusing character for me - his story arc is totally inconsistent with the theme of forgiveness and redemption, despite the fact that he's really not that bad of a guy. Amaram never receives the redemption storyline that mass murderers like Dalinar and Szeth receive, even though he is much more forgivable by comparison. Yes, he killed Kaladin's soldiers, but it makes sense why he did it (not that it was justified, but you can see his reasoning for doing it). And then he spared Kaladin's life, which was merciful, even if Kaladin didn't think it was. Compared to slaughtering the entire population of the Rift, these are pretty minor grievances, and yet he is never forgiven. It is just confusing to me that while there are so many redemption arcs in the cosmere for surprisingly depraved and evil characters (another example - it turns out the Lord Ruler wasn't so bad!), Amaram is never given his turn. Amaram was extended the olive branch in Thalyen City, yes, but he didn't accept it, and Dalinar wasn't really the character who needed to extend him forgiveness. And it's really unfair if that's the only chance of redemption Amaram receives, while characters like Szeth can literally kill the most important men in the world and still be accepted with open arms.

I agree that Navani will have a larger role in the next book, but I'm not sure about Jasnah. I feel like Jasnah will be present in many scenes, but that she won't actually have a lot of viewpoint chapters. Being the monarch is sort of a sedentary role - she will probably just stay in Urithiru, organizing meetings and making decisions, while the actual action happens elsewhere. I see Navani taking a larger role in relation to the Sibling (I'm pretty sure she's going to be the Sibling Bondsmith). I also wouldn't be surprised if Dalinar is dialed back in Book 4, since he was the focus character in Oathbringer and there are lots of other characters (Renarin, Szeth, Lift, Venli, Navani) who will have increasingly important roles moving forward and will need to occupy much the space that Dalinar filled. For some reason I don't think the same about Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan - I think they will remain central characters, while Dalinar will be less prominent.

I imagine them as Scandinavian in appearance, with fair skin and pale blonde hair. They always seemed like the most Caucasian race in the book - although apparently as I've learned from this thread, Brandon sees the Shin as the most Caucasian race, so I'm not really sure what he intends with the Iriali. Whenever Evi talked in the book, I imagined her voice with a poised French accent, very delicate and nasal. So I see the Iriali as fair skinned, blonde-haired, French-speaking, ethnic Scandinavians.

I agree, I think it would be really cool if Maya came back to life. I was surprised if it doesn't happen, considering how it was teased in Oathbringer - first when she attacked the Fused, and also when it didn't take 10 seconds for Adolin to summon her. My question is whether or not Adolin will become a Knight Radiant if he revitalizes her - I would kind of be disappointed if this happened, since Adolin is the only major viewpoint character who isn't a Knight Radiant and it's an interesting perspective. I feel like if Adolin somehow brings Maya back to life through his bond with her, he won't automatically become a Knight Radiant - she could just become free spren and return to Shadesmar. I think this concept - that dead spren can be revitalized - might be important moving forward. It might have some serious implications for their knowledge of the Recreance, and whether or not the Knights Radiant choose to betray their oaths again. If anything, it might make some of them more willing to betray their oaths if their powers become too strong, since they know their dead spren can be brought back to life.