Llarimar

Not sure how serious you're being about the Lumanor chapter, Stormfather-in-Law - it was good, I suppose, but it didn't stand out nearly as much to me. I definitley agree with Toaster Retribution, however, that Amaram could have used viewpoint chapters, and that there were way too many viewpoint chapters for random characters, including Bridge 4. The number of viewpoint characters kind of becomes ridiculous and exhausting, especially during the Battle of Thaylen City, for example. Very good points here - I think that they serve as a good counterpoint to @Diomedes's original post. Yes, Brandon is an amazing author who has immense control over his craft, and I like to think that the oppressive plot of Oathbringer was intentional rather than the result of flawed writing. However, I also agree that some of the "problems" with Oathbringer could also be reflective of Brandon reaching the limits of how much he can balance in a story and how much he can't, as One Who Connect says. Saying that writing Oathbringer was possibly a learning experience for Brandon as much as it was for the readers provides a nice perspective, because it avoids deifying him as an author and saying that it's impossible for him to make mistakes. I think it's good to combine these two perspectives - yes, some people are being too hard on Brandon over Oathbringer, and he does know what he's doing, but he also is just an ordinary person and some of the flaws in Oathbringer could be the result of his genuine limitations as an author.

I'm just thinking this now, but maybe Odium will try a different method, and decide that the duel of champions didn't work? If he was betting all his money on Dalinar, and Dalinar triumphed against him, then he might just try something else. Although the duel of champions has been teased since WoK, I believe, so I do think it's unlikely (but perhaps it was only introduced as a way for Dalinar to triumph over Odium and take control of his tortured past - Odium's "champion" was only ever the shadow of Dalinar, and now that Dalinar has beaten the duel of champions, it might not come up again in the series).

I remember when I first received Arcanum Unbounded, that I was very intrigued by the artwork on the inside cover - in particular the dragon, because I couldn't easily connect it to one of the cosmere books I'd read. I didn't think much about it beyond that, but I definitely agree that there might be something more going on with the artwork than we know. Very few things in the cosmere, I think, which seem suspicious or interesting, have no significance. I think it's unwise to ignore anything or take anything for granted.

Don't feel dumb, it's totally fine! There's a wide variety of users on the Shard, some of them have thousands of posts and know everything there is to know about Sanderson, and others are just getting started in the fandom. I think it's good to have posts like this occasionally, which fill new users in on basic cosmere knowledge. Don't hesitate to ask questions about Sanderson's books or share your ideas, because everyone is very supportive!

I should have realized that other Shard names took awhile to be released - I perhaps have a more narrow perspective just because I'm so new to the fandom. I read the first Mistborn trilogy years ago, but I only decided to return to Sanderson as early as last summer, at which point I became kind of obsessed with his writing and read all of his published cosmere works. Oathbringer was the first book I had to wait for, and I only had to wait a few months for it. So for someone who has just recently gotten into Sanderson in a serious way, I see that all of the Shard names have been revealed except for Cultivation, which is suspicious to me, although I'm sure that at the time of Warbreaker and Mistborn and all of the other cosmere novels being released, people had to wait a very long time to learn the names of the Vessels from those worlds. So you're right, Cultivation's name probably isn't that big of a deal, any more than Ambition or Endowment's name or any of the others.

I know that there has been a lot of speculation as to what the name of Cultivation's Vessel is. The fact that we do not know the name of her Vessel yet is to me extremely suspicious, because of the Shards that we know, practically all of their names have been revealed. This is a comprehensive list as far as I know... Preservation - Leras Ruin - Ati Devotion - Aona Dominion- Skai Endowment - Edgli Ambition - Uli Da Autonomy - perhaps Trell (or perhaps Trell is one of Autonomy's avatars...) - actually I just looked this up to be sure and her name is Bavadin apparently (not sure where we learned that...) Honor - Tanavast Odium - Rayse Cultivation - ???? So why don't we know the name of Cultivation's Vessel? Because the thing is, knowing the names of all of the other Vessels doesn't really tell us anything that interesting about them - it's not that big a secret what the name of Odium, is for example. Learning that Honor is Tanavast or Ambition is Uli Da is just interesting information, it doesn't really pull together any cosmere threads or give us the answers to any big RAFOs. This has led me to believe that Cultivation's shard name is important somehow. Why else wouldn't we know it? Is Brandon just withholding this information to be mysterious, or is there some deeper reason? We know the name of Ambition's Vessel from Threnody, and all we have seen from the planet of Threnody is one short story that probably isn't very significant to the larger cosmere, whereas we have three gigantic volumes from the Stormlight Archive, with Cultivation being mentioned in all three and even appearing in Oathbringer, and we still don't know her name. At this point, I might be a little bit annoyed if her name had zero cosmere significance, just because it's been teased for so long. My immediate thought is that her name is either Senna or Reya, because those are the only ambiguous female names floating around that could have some cosmere significance. However, Brandon has confirmed that Reya is not Cultivation's name, as shown by THIS COMMENT on a thread from 2014 (which shows how long we've been discussing this dilemma). There is also the possibility that her name is Senna, which is a name that Preservation just mindlessly mutters to himself in Secret History. Senna is discussed in THIS thread from 2016, but the impression I get is that Senna is important to Leras as a person, but not necessarily a god herself, and therefore not likely Cultivation. So the question remains, who is Cultivation's Vessel? I don't think it's very productive to just grasp at random names from the cosmere and wonder, "Is THIS Cultivation?" because it seems to me like Brandon is intentionally keeping her a secret, and I don't think we're going to find anything. However, the bigger question then becomes, WHY is Cultivation's name a secret? My theory is that her name is important somehow - that it will reveal something about the cosmere - but I have no idea what that could be. Any ideas?

The book was phenomenal, but not by Sanderson standards, at least in my opinion. I feel like I've been spoiled by his writing - I expect so much of his novels because all the previous ones were excellent, and if any of them fall short of excellent they disappoint. However, you're right - if you strip away the expectations and just look at OB for its value as a novel, it's much better than it appears after reading it the first time (although I haven't actually read it through a second time...). It kind of reminds me of when people watch an animated movie, and say something like, "By normal standards for animated movies, this is an excellent film, although if it had been made by Pixar it would be just mediocre" (because Pixar is so much better than normal animation), or on the flip side, "This Pixar film would be excellent if any other studio made it, but the fact that it was made by Pixar makes it just barely mediocre."

I feel like this could be said of most of Sanderson's novels which are part of a series. They are all meant to be read together, instead of as stand-alone novels. The only one I can think of that can really stand strongly on its own without depending on other books is Mistborn: The Final Empire, because even thought not all plot threads are wrapped up by the end of that book, quite a lot of them are, and you don't have to read the rest of the Mistborn books to feel satisfied by the ending. The Stormlight books, on the other hand, all exist as one giant volume in my mind - it's hard to separate them into stand-alone novels. I agree that that feeling is especially pronounced in OB, because the book offers very little by its own merits and relies heavily on the previous installments, but it still is very much in line with the way that Brandon writes series. I can't speak for Vissy but I agree that a good novel for me is constituted much more by how interesting I find the novel and the types of themes that the book explores than by how entertaining it is. Something else that is important to me in a novel is that the conclusion is emotionally satisfying - not that it necessarily has a good ending, but that the ending is emotionally appropriate for the type of novel it was. OB for me was not a very satisfying novel, which is one of the reasons why I was disappointed by it. The extremely long final battle at Thaylen City, for example, despite being the climax of the book, was very exhausting and emotionally hollow to me, because it all just felt like random action scenes with no feeling, and there was no real peril because Odium had already left. That's just one example, but the point is that at numerous points through the book I was unsatisfied and my expectations weren't met. I should speak too soon though, because how much I like OB in the long run will very much depend on how much I like Stormlight 4 and 5.

I actually really needed to hear this, I think it gives some very good perspective. I have never considered that the structural faults in Oathbringer were intentional, that Brandon purposefully included them for necessary reasons, and that despite them, he was still able to make the book excellent enough to stand alongside his other novels. I especially like the idea that the scattered plot and the powerlessness of the characters in Oathbringer is intentionally reflective of Odium's influence in the book, which can be felt both in the narrative and in the actions the characters are forced to take, even if the reader doesn't consciously realize this. We are being affected by the oppressive power of Odium as we read Oathbringer, just like all of the in-world people. Again, a very good point. The Well of Ascension was my least favorite book of Mistborn Era 1, and I remember feeling very doubtful at the time of reading it that the series would satisfactorily wrap up by Book 3. Keep in mind though, I had The Hero of Ages sitting on my shelf waiting for me to read when I finished The Well of Ascension, so I discovered quite quickly that Brandon had a larger plan in mind, but I can imagine that at the time of The Well of Ascension being released, some people were probably annoyed with it, and were concerned while waiting for Book 3 that the series was going downhill. I think that once we have books 4 and 5 of the Stormlight Archive, Oathbringer will appear as a seamless part of the tapestry, and everything will make sense by the end. It'll just take a long time getting there. Also, @Diomedes, you should add [OB] to the beginning of the thread title.

Right, this makes sense. If you get away from Sel soon after becoming an Elantrian, you're likely not to look very old because the Dor hasn't been straining your mind and body for very long. I have heard of a Just a thought, could this access to Investiture possibly allow him to continue using his powers as an Elantrian off of Sel? All Investiture is just Investiture, even if it manifests in different ways, so the Investiture that is used by Elantrians, trapped in the Cognitive Realm on Sel, shouldn't be any different from Investiture anywhere else, right? The powers of an Elantrian would probably be different off of Sel, but is it possible that they would still be able to use some sort of power if they were able to access Investiture? Is there a trilogy? I know that there are more books planned for Sel which are set to take place about 10 years after Elantris, but I didn't know a trilogy was planned. Also, on a side note, not sure if it adds very much (because we already know they're very old), but here is a WoB I found that talks about the age of the Elantrians in Secret History. Also, interesting to note, Brandon pronounces Elantris as "ee-LAWN-triss," whereas myself and everyone I know says "ee-LANN-triss." So that's interesting.

This idea makes the most sense to me. I remember when I read Secret History, one of the first things I thought was, "Why are they all so old?" and then when the Elantrian in OB was also described as old, I thought that there had to be something more to it - it couldn't be a coincidence. I think I agree, even though I suggested otherwise in my original post, because all of the characters that we've seen enter the CR don't appear any different (Kaladin and company in Elantris, Khriss, Nazh and Hoid in Secret History, etc.). None of them appear as a more honest depiction of how they cognitively view themselves. A person in the Physical will look the same if they travel to the Cognitive, because they are still a Physical being, just visiting another Realm. I think, looking at the WoB posted by @Oversleep and @The One Who Connects, in combination with what Calderis said, that the most likely explanation is that being an Elantrian is very emotionally and mentally exhausting, but that they Elantrians sustained and kept immortal by proximity to Sel. When they wander away from Sel, however, the magic which sustains them weakens and they appear more withered and aged due to the mental and emotional strain placed upon them. My question would then by why Galladon does not appear old when we see him in WoK. My guess is that he has not been an Elantrian very long - who knows how long the people in Secret History and the lighthouse keeper in OB have been Elantrians, with the mental and emotional strain of their power weighing down upon them all that time. Because Elantrians are basically immortal (even though they can die if their exhaustion becomes too great, as evidenced by Galladon's father), there are probably much more old Elantrians than young ones, so therefore odds are if you encounter an Elantrian away from Sel, they're going to look old.

I like most of your suggestions, but Nyle Dimarco is profoundly deaf... so it might be kind of difficult to have him playing a hearing character with dialogue. But he definitely has the right look for Adolin.

Oh, that's actually really interesting, I didn't know that. I've always wondered about the spelling of Kiin's name because I just think a double-i looks ugly, instead of saying "Keen." As far as the question is concerned, I don't think there's a connection. People speculate a lot about characters that appear in different cosmere books whose names bear a similarity to a certain Aon, but I think that most of them are coincidences, because the Aons use such simple letter combinations, so they're bound to pop up once or twice in the names of non-Selish people.

This may have been asked before. It's something I've wondered for awhile. We have seen Elantrians (or at least, Selish people, but I think they're Elantrians) twice in the Cognitive Realm - first in Mistborn: Secret History when Kelsier sees them trying to Ascend and take up the Shard of Preservation, I believe, and again in Oathbringer, when Kaladin encounters a Selish man in a lighthouse. In both instances, the Elantrians are described as being very old. Why is this? My guess is that their powers as Elantrians grant them long life, and so even though they may appear young in the Physical Realm, their cognitive perception of themselves is that they are very old. Is this correct, or is there some other reason we know of why Elantrians appear old in the CR?

I actually don't agree. Rather than becoming more important as the series goes on, I think that Rysn will remain reserved for the Interludes chapters - I like the idea of a character who has an Interlude chapter in every book, but doesn't extend very far beyond that (even though their actions during their Interlude chapters may have important repercussions). I love her character, but part of the reason why I like her is because her chapters are such a rare treat, and they always add such a new and interesting perspective because she's not involved at all with the other main characters.

I don't think this is where I originally saw it suggested, but here is a whole thread that talks about Rysn becoming the Sibling Bondsmith. Crackpot Theory: Rysn

Do you place the emphasis on the first or second syllable? shall-ANNE or SHALL-anne?

I agree that one of the only ways I can possibly see Adolin switching sides is if he saw it as the only way to save his family. But why does Odium need to trick him in order to do this? As One Who Connects said... Maybe Shallan's mind will snap - or perhaps Odium will break her mind somehow - and the only way for Adolin to save her is if he becomes his champion. Or perhaps becoming Odium's Champion is the only way to save Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah and Renarin (all people Adolin cares about deeply) from becoming Heralds and being tortured on Braize. That would be a wonderful way for Odium to subvert the situation and come out on top - instead of trying to avoid the return of the Heralds, he embraces it, and tells Adolin that the only way to stop the torture of his family is by becoming his champion. The whole duel of champions things though, in general, seems kind of stupid to me. Honor straight up said to Dalinar that the only way they could possibly win would be if Odium agreed to a duel of champions. If that is they only way they could possibly win, why wouldn't Odium just use a different strategy? Surely Odium himself is more powerful than any champion could be, and I have a hard time imagining that he will just lie down and accept defeat if his champion is defeated. Perhaps the duel of champions has something to do with Odium's Shardic nature - maybe it's something he can't resist.

What about Kadash, Dalinar's ardent friend? That might be interesting. Come to think of it, it would be interesting if Kadash became a Radiant in general, not specifically a Bondsmith. For some reason, I feel like all of the other Bondsmiths will be leaders, or at least people with a significant position of authority. The Bondsmiths are such important, influential Radiants that I can't imagine someone insignificant like Kaladin or Shallan becoming one. That is why suggestions like Taravangian, Ialai and Kadash (as a high-ranking member of the ardentia) make sense to me, and suggestions like Rlain or Rysn (as I've seen suggested before) do not, because they are relatively unimportant and have no political power. However, if Rlain finds the lost Parshendi and becomes their leader (as suggested on another recent thread) that could place him in a position of authority to become a viable Bondsmith.

This is a good point. Especially because Adolin doesn't really have anything else. Like I said earlier, he's not particularly intelligent or remarkable and he doesn't have any special gifts or abilities. He's a skilled warrior and duelist, but those aren't very unique talents, and as we saw in the battle of Thaylen City his skills are easily outclassed by the Radiants. Because he's such a single-dimensional character in many ways, he doesn't have a rich character arc either and he doesn't really contribute to other people character arcs. His prominence to Shallan's story is at best peripheral, because even though they're married, the Shallan-Adolin relationship is the most shallow aspect of her character, and her real depth comes from her Surgebinding and tortured past. So if Adolin doesn't become a Radiant, he will just be filling up a lot of space without serving a significant purpose or embellishing other people's character arcs in a meaningful way.

Just so people are free to mention any OB spoilers if they want. The OB Spoiler area also seems to get more traffic so I thought it would be a better place to post it.

But don't they sometimes pronounce the names differently from each other? I haven't listened to the audiobooks, but I've heard that Michael and Kate both pronounce "Sadeas" differently, for example.

Yes, that makes sense. I'm pretty sure we pronounce his name the same way because I also say "Kaladin" like "calla lilies" - I think we're just writing it out differently.

Oh yes, I missed where you said that earlier. When I read "ah" I read it like the "a" in far... and when I read "uh" I read it like the "u" in fun. To me, "uh" is definitely the sound in PAL-uh-din and KAL-uh-din... I can't make myself pronounce them with the "ah" in far... unless the emphasis is the middle - pa-LAH-din, ka-LAH-din (kind of like "salami" - sa-LAH-mi). Maybe we're just reading the vowels differently...

So you say her name "shuh-LAN"? Like "the-LAND?" That's an interesting pronunciation, and it makes sense if her name is based on Shallash. I think the reason why I say "SHALL-in" is because, for one thing, the beginning of her name is "Shall," which reminds me of the word "shall." And it only makes sense to say "-in" after "Shall." SHALL-awn, SHALL-ann or anything else just sounds weird. Plus the spelling of her name is similar to some words in English with a "Shall-in" pronunciation, such as "gallon," "talon" and the name "Allan" (that spelling of Allan is exactly the same as her name, just without "Sh" at the beginning). I think it comes down to whether the emphasis is on the first or the second syllable. If the emphasis is on the first syllable, then "SHALL-in" makes the most sense. If the emphasis is on the second syllable, then you could get "shuh-LAWN" or, as you suggested above, "shuh-LAN".