Song

I think one of the really interesting thing with the Todium Development is we have three players involved in making it happen. Cultivation, Sja-anat, and Renarin.

Cultivation seems to believe that T as Odium is a positive development, but we don't know if there is more involved in her plans, even if T believes she doesn't realise what she's done.

Sja-anat seems to be using Renarin as part of her plans for Odium, but her motives will likely be focused around her own freedom or power, or her children's well-being, not necessarily the good of Roshar.

And Renarin himself seems to have some awareness of what was going to happen when he dropped off the spheres. But is he a pawn or does he have awareness of what he's done and a reason behind it?

So...did they all make a mistake? Or is there a longer game in play? I kind of hope so.

6 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

A bunch of people are saying Taravodium will be somehow less bad than Rayse.  I don't agree.  You don't cast a character in the role of Satan if they're intended to be a good influence on the world.  Not to mention the foreshadowing we got from this book's Letter, where Sazed says that having Rayse get replaced by someone who the power is a better fit for would be the worst-case scenario!

Yes, and specifically that a crafty vessel is worst case scenario.

I've just been reading back through the epigraphs and noticed something very scary in Harmony's letter to Hoid (I think it's to Hoid). 

"In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most."

I think this is Brandon's way of hinting...This is the worst possible outcome. Because T is crafty as they come.

So...we know from his explanation to Dalinar that Renarin himself believes that his ability to future-site and act accordingly is why Renarin is hiden from Odiums sight. I'm still not convinced that is ALL of why he is invisible to Odium.

Because we've seen Odium be wrong about Dalinar becoming his champion, when he hadn't had any warning from Renarin about what he saw.  There might be something Renarin did or said based on a specific vision that helped Dalinar resist, but I don't think it would be that subtle.

So, while I think Renarin's future sight is one reason that Renarin blocks Odium future site, I'm still clinging onto my theory that in part it is who Renarin is that makes him impossible for Odium to read, because he is almost an anti-Odium in terms of his ability to resist hate. So that plus his future site is the reason he is the darkness that Odium sees. So his actions as a child in continuing to love Dalinar despite everything is what ultimately led Dalinar to become a better man than Odium thought possible.

But...that also might just be because I love Renarin and like the idea that there is something character specific that makes him such a player in the story.

Renarin. Always. 

On 04/12/2020 at 7:35 PM, Darth_Hel said:

Bit out there, but Szeth goes to Shinovar and this death rattle happens when he destroys it "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears." Todium selects a child (maybe Gavinor, or Oroden, or a Shin child that Szeth brings back) knowing Dalinar could not kill the child. Szeth returns and Renarin convinces his father to select Szeth as the champion which throws off the future-sight of Todium as well as his knowledge of Dalinar he depended on bring about "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.". Dalinar demands Szeth surrender rather than harm the child, but Szeth instead swears the 5th Ideal leaving behind his Oath to Dalinar and draws Nightblood killing the child "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life..."

Szeth is the only reasonable champion so broken that he might be willing to take the option of killing a child to save the world, and whose oaths would allow it. I could also see him letting Nightblood destroy him afterwards.

I think this is a brilliant theory. It also fits with the back and forth of T and Dalinar's ongoing discussion about how willing you are to do evil for the good of the many. Is Dalinar willing to order the death of a child to save the world. Even his own Grandson? 

He can't...but Szeth could.

There were so many amazing things. I think I had two favourites

Kaladin and Tien was...everything. To see Kaladin make such a significant difference to the lives of so many but to only value keeping them alive- I loved that Tien got to live again to give Kaladin a better perspective. And the way that built on the Dog and the Dragon story was perfection.

Navani's arc. The way she could sit there and say she wasn't a scholar when she was so clearly one of the most brilliant people to ever walk Roshar. Her relationship with Raboniel which even as they fought and lied, taught her the truth. The way she came to see her own value and THAT was what made her worthy to say the oath. I loved it. it's something I really relate to: particularly as a Mother, where I think you get used to thinking your only value sits in the relationships you invest in and not in your capabilities. So that was so satisfying.

On 03/12/2020 at 6:54 AM, teknopathetic said:

I thought the note just meant "I am sorry you chose the way you did". Maybe if T took Renarin's hand he would have been purified similar to what Renarin did in part 1 with Moash and Khaladin. 

Yes. I agree. I think Renarin saw one option of light and gave T the chance to be better and he didn't take it. So Renarin had to go with plan B which might be better in the long run but sucks for T.

10 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

First these things Brightlord Master Highmarshal Stormface  “I needed someone you couldn’t intimidate,” she replied. “That list at best includes three people. And the queen was likely to transform you into a crystal goblet or something.” Brandon you mad genius you took the darkness and made some levity appear!! Syl you always seem to know what Kal needs even if her won't admit it. Shallan explaining where babies come from, Veil that was mean!! Note to self have Veil teach Syl to gamble. Nahn's are being messed with. Jasnah what have you been up to. Adolin has not disowned his father that is a positive note. This chapter was so bittersweet. It's interesting how Veil and the three consider Kal a friend.  "You’re my only bridgeboy,” Adolin said with a grin. “Where would I get another?" Oh Adolin you are one of kind.

Rock go off my friend and have your novella. What do you know of Hoid? Hmmm.... 

My heartstrings could not take this chapter. Kal don't do something foolish.

All of the above. I would die for Kal, Syl, Adolin and Rock.

10 hours ago, agrabes said:

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing.  We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities.  Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension.  I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination.  It would fit with the order too.  Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions.  Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth.

In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS.  Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth.  He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices.  That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path.  It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

I think this is correct.

It was so wonderful to see Renarin do this, and I kind of dig that it was subconsciously done. Just convinces me even more that he's incapable of being corrupted, and is going to have a fabulous arc...when we are given enough pages to see it.

I really, really hope we have either Kalladin or Shallan swearing another oath in this book. It's...dispiriting to see a year go by and them not really make that much progress. 

I want this book yesterday!!

In regards to the first arch, I was convinced for ages that Taln would die (Too good for this world kind of thing) but I feel like I read a recent WOB that seemed to imply that all the back half characters will be alive for their books (he didn't say that but the way he talked about the back half books didn't seem to leave room for a Eshonai situation).

So I think Dallinar will ascend, and Adolin and Navani will die.  I am just not sure about Kaladin.  It seems to be that he is the kind of person who is always trying to give his life for others, and that perhaps learning to live with loss would be a better arch for him? 

I think Szeth will die, and probably a stack of Bridge 4 and most of the Heralds.

We also know that a Truthwatcher in the past said "I foresaw this".  So that would suggest to me that Glys is not the first higher level Radiant Spren that has been corrupted, even if it was so rare that most of the Radiants and Hessi didn't hear of it.

I believe that this is the main piece of evidence that Renarin has 'proper' truthwatcher illumination. We know in Ym's interlude that his Spren wanted him to make light to save them from Nale. It seems too unlikely that this wouldn't be the same type of thing that Glys got Renarin to use.

How it worked? Not sure. I assume the Thunderclast is "woken" by voidlight in it's gem heart. Maybe the Truthwatcher light some how shuts it down?

And is it something Renarin can always do? Does it need large amounts of stormlight. Does he 'power up' to it? Seems like Thunderclasts wouldn't be a threat if a truth watcher can take them out easily?

I was wondering about this.  Every area has a very difficult culture and different priorities- just like the Heralds and the Radiant Orders.  Could those have grown out of what Radiants settled in that area after Urithiru closed down?  

I can't choose. I love Renarin, so I want his book only so I can get more of him in general (his past is the least mysterious since we've seen bits through Dalinar). But there are so many mysterious histories. Taln, Szeth and Lifts are probably the biggest mysteries so the ones I am most interested in.

Taln wouldn't turn. Just look at his reaction to Ash's betrayak! Odium can't touch him.

On 11/06/2018 at 9:00 PM, Steeldancer said:

Taln. I feel like I’m in a loop in this forum. Taln Taln Taln. 

I think that is a guarantee.  And recent WOB pretty much confirms that he will survive until his book so you will get lots of Taln-iness for many years to come.

My top ones would be Ghostblood info (artfully scattered rather than dumped), Herald POV (especially Ishar or the Diagramist), and Rlain as Bondsmith (almost a tie with King Rock).

I wondered if Vasher gave up nightblood in return for no longer need breath to stay alive.

What I really want to know is what Nale did/gave up/was cursed with to get Nightblood? 

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh hey, its this subject again. (I'm surprised how long it took. We went from 3 times in 3 months to a 4 month gap)

Thank you. It's very refreshing to hear someone else who sees more than one option. On the subject of options, have 9 of them:

(I'm tired of having to format this as a multi-quote, so it's been condensed into just one now. Individual links to parts one, two, three, and four, for context/discussion value)

It is helpful to see the original WOB, because I agree it is not clear-cut. We also know it is possible that back four characters will die before there books and other characters will be focused on like Eshonai/Venli. I can imagine if Ash falls in Moash in 4 or 5, having Ash's 'descent into distruction' backstory along side a dustbringer present day story would work well.

I love this theory!!!!!

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

One wonders if Renarin's Resonance will be the same as an ordinary Truthwatcher, since his powers aren't quite the same and he was apparently unsure if Glys could even manifest as a Shardblade (reading Renarin's comment during that chapter with the benefit of hindsight). For what it's worth (ie, not much) Brandon has RAFO'd whether Renarin can use Illumination.

That said there's some reasonably compelling evidence that he can, since one of the recordings in the Gem Archive is from a Truthwatcher who implies that they also had visions of the future and thus in theory had bonded a 'corrupt' spren as well. They must have been able to pass for normal at a time when there were lots of Radiants and thus lots of people who knew what a Truthwatcher was supposed to be able to do. Particularly since the Radiants of old seemed really paranoid about spren touched by Sja-anat. For someone to be like Renarin at that time, they must have been able to avoid attracting suspicion and you'd think that a total inability to use one of the two Truthwatcher Surges would have been something of a red flag.

I think the biggest bit of evidence that Renarin has illumination is the light he produced to 'kill' the thunderclast. Given that Ym's Spren tried to get him to do the same it seems likely to be truthwatcher illumination trick.

1 hour ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Do we have a WOB that states that Renarin's ability to see the future is due to the corruption of Glys?

No, but it was that skill that led to Jasnah's deduction that Glys was not a normal Truth-watcher Spren. So it seems extremely likely.

I wrote a post on this very topic, I think it is such an interesting question!  My big theories as to Renarin's role are:

-He seemed almost incapable of hate, and is so different from Odium that Odium finds him impossible to predict.

-He see's the future as Odium does due to Glys corruption, acts in response (i.e. Writing the count-down that prompted Dalinar to get to Urithiru, nodding when Jasnah is ready to kill him) and those responses change the future that Odium sees.  The fact he is supposed to be dead and isn't is obviously a big part of that. 

I am not convinced that Cultivations planning is as meticulous as has been suggested.  She just doesn't seem particularly calculating in the one scene where we met her.  When she gives Dalinar his boon and curse, her response is almost a "this might work or it might not."  I think the secret to any plan she has is not the diagram itself but Mr T's compassion.  He thinks his intelligence is what will save the world, but it is his compassionate, supposedly dumb days that I think will be the key.

At the end of chapter 47 in the UK edition Ivory says "No knowledge is that can destroy you."