Arch

Ok, but your theory was that they were derived from eachother. Were you just trying to say that they weren't created through evolution? That both humans and singers were created by Adonalsium?

I agree that it's strange that they can mate with eachother, but I remember a Wob saying that the Listeners and Humans don't have a common ancestor and are not some sort of mutation. I'd have to find it though

Edit: here it is https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188-general-reddit-2015/#e3922

Interview with light-eyed captain from Sadeas' army:

Highprince Sadeas was a brightlord like no other and one I'm proud to say to have served faithfully for many years. Fair and wise he was always happy to take council from others, even from women! Old king Gavilar himself said that the his family were nothing but a bunch of storming backwater barbarians, until Sadeas got a hold of them...

The highprince always made sure his worthy men were well taken care of.. That fool Kholin got 6 thousand of his own men killed at the Tower, through his recklessness. I know about the lies the Kholin have spread. It was with a heavy heart Sadeas decided to leave the blackthorn. He cared about our lives!

Always a pragmatist he took anyone who needed it in and gave them a job. The best men got the best positions and even the wretches of society got the chance to prove themselves through a minor trial of strenght. Yes that's right... the bridgecrews! Murders, rapists, unlucky recruits and theives all worked to earn their place among us. And the women? Sadeas opened the brothels to all of them and let them set up anywhere they wanted. What more could they ask of him? Would those stiff Kholin ever do something that productive to help their lesser subjects? No all they can is stand constipated in their blue uniforms.
 

Not gonna lie, the Sly/Kaladin ship is kind of off-putting... Even if we ignore the fact that she's literally just a conscious piece of investiture; they've never shown even a hint of romantic interest in eachother.

Sly and Kaladin are close, but their relationship is better described as brother and sister than 2 lovers (pretty sure spren don't even have sex). 
 

Also I dont really see how the honorspren captain describing their bond as intimate proves anything when they would describe every nahel bond that way... Since you know melding your soul with someone is inherently intimate.

I'm hoping that Malata betrays Mr.T later on. She doesn't seem to be all that interested in what the Diagram is doing and it seems to me like she's just looking out for herself. She also describes the whole situation as ''fun'' so maybe she's a bit of a thrill seeker aswell.
 

Quote

Hearing her own language so suddenly was strange to Shallan, and her mind took a moment to sort through the words. “People,” Shallan said, closing her drawing pad. “I enjoy figure drawing. You’re the one who came with Taravangian. His Surgebinder.”
“Malata,” she said. “Though I am not his. I came to him for convenience, as Spark suggested we might look to Urithiru, now that it has been rediscovered.”

she could just be trying to trick Shallan here, but they never speak again (on screen at least) so I feel like Brandon put this scene here for a reason. who knows...

Oh and on why Dalinar doesnt give her orders... The only active deputy the radiants seem to have at the moment is operating the oathgates, which she seems to be taking on the most along with Renarin. Besides that what would he even have her do? Practive with stormlight? Also Dalinar can't just order anyone around; he's not her highprince.

1. Learn more about voidbinding

2. Sadly its not his book, but I want Szeth, Nightblood and his new highspren to at least start their CRUSADE TO DESTROY EVIL (in Shinovar)

3. Dalinar telling Adolin and Renarin the truth about what happened to their mother (I swear if this happens offscreen...)

4. There's a full own war with the voidbringers now so I'd to see some of these big armies clashing with eathother all over Roshar. I want to see some tactics for dealing with the Fused and frontline action for the more combat orientated Radiants.

6. It'll be Eshonai/Venli's so maybe so cool, perhaps non-evil, Listener forms? From her last scene in the book, I got the impression Venli is planning on starting some sort of secret mini-resistance within Odium's ranks. Watching sabotage Odiums plans from the inside would be cool.

5. Some Shallan and Kaladin banter please. They barely talked at all in Oathbringer.

14 minutes ago, Darvys said:

The betrayal was in the lie, why say that the war was over when for all you knew it could have restarted the next year ? They lulled the people into a sense of security that left them completely unprepared to deal with the desolation when it came. Sure after four millenia vigilence would have been close to nonexistent but well; so many things would have gone differently, hard to say it the result would have been better or worse, it at least certainly wasn't the right thing to do.

that's a good point, but also really speculative. Maybe if they warned them people would have worked together for a time, but after 4 thousand years it's all but garanteed theyd forget and start squabbling again so I don't see that much changing. Also at the time they broke the pact Honor and the radiants were still around to guide humanity.

For some reason The heralds seemed to genuinely believe the oathpack would hold with just Taln. Maybe they were mad by then and just desperate to believe any excuse to escape the torture, but they did think it would hold.

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

2. Her treatment of Shallan. Shallan has become an accomplished Radiant, who has saved the entire Alethi force, found Urithiru, and fought off an Unmade. Jasnah makes her a scribe. I understand that Jasnah is more experienced, that she can teach, and that Shallan needs to learn things, but giving her scribe duty is stupid. For one, it shows that Jasnah considers Shallan to be below her in status. Two, Jasnah should be able to figure out that Shallan might start to feel rebellious if she is treated like a random servant. Three, Shallan deserves to be treated as more of an equal, after all she has done.

Honestly in this scene I was more annoyed at Shallan than anything else. Her mentor is back from the grave and she's acting so childish, selfish and also a bit ungrateful... Jasnah does in fact give her full credit for what she's done, but in no way is Shallan her equal (socially, academically, maturity or how far they've progressed as radiants). Jasnah has been very patient and forgiving with her and helped Shallan when she needed it the most (even after betraying Jasnah's trust). When they meet again Shallan doesn't feel like she needs Jasnah's good graces anymore so she doesn't care. Like really? I know this isnt Shallan's intention and she's just immature, but it makes her come off as an opportunist.

I really wouldnt call what the Heralds did a betrayal to humanity. They signed up to do the impossible and well failed... 

I feel like the only person who has a right to feel betrayed is Taln (and he doesnt)

22 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think if the Heralds went back to Damnation, and didn't break, it would prevent the Fused from respawning when killed.  So they'd still have to kill the Fused that are on Roshar, but once dead, if the Oathpact is revitalized, then they should stay on Damnation.

It wouldn't. The Stormfather said that the Fused don't go to Damnation anymore when killed. They just go straight to the everstorm where they can be reborn. Also at this point the oathpack is too weak to hold them (even if you ignore the fact that no herald would actually be willing to stay).

edit: its not that the heralds are on Roshar. If that was the case they could have just ended the other desolations by killing themselves.

I'm a sucker for heartwarming father/son relationships so this is probably my favorite.

Quote

A hand fell on his shoulder. “Father?”

“Adolin, so help me—” Still kneeling, Dalinar turned, then cut off. It wasn’t Adolin, but the other one. Renarin had returned, timid as always, his spectacled eyes wide and his hand trembling. He held something out.

A small bottle. “I…” Renarin swallowed. “I got you one, with the spheres the king gave me. Because you always go through what you buy so quickly.”

Dalinar stared at that bottle of wine for an endless moment. “Gavilar hides the wine from me,” he mumbled. “That’s why none is left. I … couldn’t possibly … have drunk it all.…”

Renarin stepped in and hugged him. Dalinar flinched, bracing as if for a punch. The boy clung to him, not letting go.

“They talk about you,” Renarin said, “but they’re wrong. You just need to rest, after all the fighting you did. I know. And I miss her too.”

Dalinar licked his lips. “What did she tell you?” he said, voice ragged. “What did your mother say about me?”

“The only honest officer in the army,” Renarin said, “the honorable soldier. Noble, like the Heralds themselves. Our father. The greatest man in Alethkar.”

What stupid words. Yet Dalinar found himself weeping. Renarin let go, but Dalinar grabbed him, pulling him close.

7 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

I actually think it is a very strong possibility that we might be encountering a Shallan who is actively trying to conceive, already pregnant, or has a newborn baby already here by the time book 4 starts. I just can't see how any of these wouldn't be the case. In Alethi society, the expectations for two newlyweds to procreate will be there, and the pressure from those expectations will be enormous. Heck, Adolin himself will be expecting it and hopeful for it, and as we know after the events of OB, she is very desperate to always meet the expectations that Adolin has of her.  She has to be that perfect Alethi wife, remember?

Sadeas' wife never gave him a child so maybe as long as there's a suitable heir it doesn't matter as much.

46 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She was 17 at the end of WoK. Only has been a few months since then.

the wiki says Shallan, Kaladin and Renarin were all born in the same year. Is it wrong?

edit: nevermind

46 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

they do say those were their goals, but I don’t see it stated (or implied) they were returning.

seemed implied to me. Because of the everstorm the singer army arrived much early than anyone expected and it is seems out of character for them to do nothing. I agree with everything else you said though.

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

His name literally means "born unto Light". He basically is like cosmere Superman. Without the flying.

And brooding Kaladin is cosmere Batman with the flying. My god... Kaladin's going to have women throughing themselves at him for the rest of the series.

Maybe for some interlude character, lol

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I had the same thought, but I'm not holding my breath, because.. well... we're talking about storming Adolin Kholin.

Maybe I'm in denial, but as a prominent secondary character in Stormlight "depressing backstory" Archive, I just can't see his main personality fault just being bad at holding on to women..

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

 Adolin Kholin, Mr. Nicest Person on Roshar, faces no consequences killing a highprince in cold blood, gets the girl, helps her overcome her issues, revives his Shardblade, becomes a storming Edgedancer, you know, just on the side.

With so many things, on the surface at least, going right for Adolin it seems to me more likely that Sanderson is actually setting him up to get completely crushed down the road. Not necessarily die or turn evil, but something really traumatic up ahead...  When Adolin was a kid, Dalinar noted that nothing ever actually discourages him. He just comes back more ernest than ever. And while that's a good character trait it just can't last in series like this can it? It makes me wonder if his mothers death and his father becoming a wroth alcoholic for years didn't phase him, what will actually break him?

22 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

It’s more than I don’t trust anyone from any order as completely espousing an ideal. Take Windrunners... many of Bridge Four have already taken the second oath and yet they still abandon Theylan City. How does that align at all with protecting those who cannot protect themselves? Pulling back to (supposedly - they don’t know the oathgate will be breached) well-defended Urithiru and letting countless citizens of TC die all because eons ago humans invaded Roshar does not seem to embody that ideal in any way or shape.

I see what you're geting at, but i think there's something you missread. For one Bridge 4 had no intention of abandoning Theylan city... They oathgated back to Urithiru so they could tell the other bridgemen the news about the Dawnsingers, but ended up getting trapped there because of the attack. Sure they were confused about their long-term goals as radiants and wanted to hear Kaladins opinion first, but abondoning the Theylans was never the plan (they led the reinforcements afterall).
 

22 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

More specifically to Skybreakers, I think anyone who “strictly” follows any law can twist that law for their own good, i.e. Nale killing Radiants. He “justified” that by saying he was punishing them for past crimes, but he was actually guided solely by an ulterior motive. I can’t imagine there are not other ways to twist the Skybreaker principles. 

Nale says that the 5th ideal gives him some "liberties", but we don't quite understand that ideal yet so its hard to say. We do however know that the ideals have a lot to do with perception and if the skybreakers sincerely thought they were breaking their oaths (or twisting them) then their nahel bonds would just start failing. Since we don't see that happening, we can conclude they at least believe that they're following their oaths (even if you personally disagree).

sorry it took so long to answer that 

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I guess I see that if you trust that Skybreakers are unfailingly loyal to who they choose to follow... I personally don’t and I have more information than our main characters on the order, so that doesn’t get me there. (Not saying that’s not Brandon’s reasoning though.) 

This probably isnt the right place, but it seems I've recently become the prime Nale/Szeth/Skybreaker attorney so i have to ask.. why? From what we've read so far skybreakers and highspren or probably the most obsessive about codes and oaths.

I'd just like to point out that Adolin is inadvertently the catalyst to Shallan fracturing in to Radiant..

Quote

“I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.”

Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants. But she held her tongue. This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded.

But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse.

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.
[...]
I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.
[...]
No. No, what would Adolin do if he returned and found a completely different woman in the room? He couldn’t know of Veil. The lines she sketched, ragged and unrefined from the shaking pencil, quickly took the shape of her own face. But hair in a bun. A poised woman, not as flighty as Shallan, not as unintentionally silly.

A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like… like Jasnah.

Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could… could she be this woman?

I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand.

When Adolin returned to the room a moment later, he found a poised, calm woman who wasn’t quite Shallan Davar. Brightness Radiant is her name, she thought. She will go only by title.

Chapter 15
Of course you can't blame Adolin. He couldn't have known about her trauma, but I think its pretty clear that there's a combination of her not wanting to disappoint him and  her being afraid of the shardblade that goes in to creating Radiant. At some point she even thinks about using Radiant to craft Adolin the perfect bride.

9 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think he swore the third ideal at the start of the battle. Thats why he went to ask what Dalinar wanted of him. 

No by then he already saw Dalinar as his master, but had not yet said the words.

Chapter 121 (his last talk with Nale)

Quote

“The law is made by men, so it is not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency. You have said the Words?”
“Not yet. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.”

Nale is both a Herald and a radiant. He can take squires too.

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Is Szeth bonded to Nightblood or to a highspren or to both? His identical skybreaker surges make no sense if its Nightblood, plus Nightblood will probably not care about the Oaths he is saying. If its a highspren in addition to Nightblood, why haven't we seen it? 

He's definitely bonded to Nightblood, but thats not where his surge binding is coming. The way Skybreakers work is that they dont get their spren until their 3rd ideal (before then theyre just acolytes then later squires). When the senior Skybreakers explain this to him they speak as if they fully expect him to attract a highspren eventually.
 

Quote

He bowed his head. “I may swear the Second Ideal?”

“You may. Justice will serve you until you attract a spren and swear to a more specific code. During my prayers last night, Winnow proclaimed the highspren are watching you. I won’t be surprised if it takes mere months before you achieve the Third Ideal.”

Months. No, he would not take months. But he did not swear quite yet.

As far as why we haven't seen the spren yet, you have to remember that Szeth didnt actually speak his 3rd ideal, until after the battle. So during the fight he was just a squire (thats also why he couldnt use division). Perhaps Nightblood changes things, but so far I see no reason to believe szeths highspren won't show up soon.

Rereading that interlude with ardent Ellista (the one who loves love-triangles) is a lot funnier, after participating in this discussion. I'm actually willing to believe that whole interlude is a nod from Sanderson because he knows how seriously some us would take this, lol.

I'd gave it a strong 7/10

Dalinar's arc was some powerful stuff and as expected he pretty much carried the whole thing. As much as I really liked reading it, this just isn't a book you can finish feeling satisfied. None of our main POV characters, besides dalinar, reach satisfying answers for their respective arcs (Kaladin unwilling to accept that innocents will die and Shallans new found personnality disorder) and so much of the current set-up it relies on the blind faith that it'll all tie together in the next book. And to be honest Idk if Im all that excited to be hearing about more of the same dilema for another +1k pages... 

The way multiple plotlines are handled is just frustrating. It's like he got bored of some them and decided to drop it mid-way. I feel like Sanderson is afraid some of his confrontations seeming melo-dramatic so he just... skips them (the szeth scence that should have happened for example)...

There were some parts that could be seen as fluff, but I actually a lot fond a lot of it to be charming. Sanderson is good at give you a wider perspective of the world and characters and I glad this aspect was as consistent as in the last 2 books.

I'm also really liking the direction Szeth is going with nightblood. I'm excited for his big arc the most .

Overall it's all pretty good, but it need to be less of a transitional book, like the last 2, to blow me away.

An average evening in the Kholin/Davar Household

Adolin: My gemstone, my back from a long day of drilling the troops!..Shallan are you here?
Veil: No, it's Veil today.
Adolin: Oh...well wanna go get a drink?
Radiant: Can't allow that, brightlord.
Adolin: Your turn, huh.
Radiant: Think of the implications of a married man regularly going out drinking with some woman.
Adolin: My wife?

Edit: I imagine it as bitter marriage because I'm a bad person.