Jenet

Thanks eveyone for your input. It seems there is no clear evidence that Navani is NOT able to revive the Sibling, and that is nice, then I can freely speculate in that direction. As well as ponder on the alternatives you all mention, which are also very interesting, like Rock or Rlain. I also believe that Sanderson might come up with something entirely different altogether, as is his habit. Another question though: All the strata in the tower of Urithiru, has someone somewhere given theories as to what they are or represent? To me is seems like they are like blood vessels, nerves and other organs of a body, and that the gems at the central column that Shallan freed of the Midnight Mother are somehow representative of a heart? It would be interesting to see a compilation of the listed properties (in the Ars Arcanum) of the materials that the strata are made of. I have tried to search to see if anyone has made such a list, perhaps you guys know if it had been made and posed somewhere? Edit: I just found an example. In chapter 109 of OB, Navani talks to Dalinar about the different strata of Urithiru. Then follows a discussion between them about which gemstone is use for what kind of soulcasting. Then Navani says: Garnet makes blood. A little later in the discussion, Navani adds: "The records below," Navani said, "speak of the tower as a living thing. With a heard of emerald and ruby, and now these veins of garnet". All this, and the continuous mentioning of the strata that especially Shallan observes, leads me to think that the tower is some kind of dead organism, or just slumbering. Perhaps a fabrial, perhaps the remnants of a spren, perhaps something in between.

There is a thought that is persisting in my mind as I read the books again these days. What if Navani is reviving the sibling and becomes Bondsmith? I wonder if there are other people who have had this idea, or if there is certain evidence that it is not possible, so I can put it out of my mind. My arguments are: - Adolin is obviously in the process of reviving his blade/spren, so in some way or another, that we do not know quite yet, it is now possible to revive dead spren. - We know that the Sibling probably is the Tower of Urithiru, who was some sort of alive, and taking care of internal infrastructure, like sewage, ventilation, climate for growing food etc. - We know that the Sibling was one of the three spren who bonded Bondsmiths. - Dalinar says somewhere that he never knew anyone so interested in sewage as Navani Kholin. She points out bad or good infrastructure all the time. In the different war camps, and in Urithiru. - Navani is a renowned artifabrian. She thinks maybe the tower is a huge fabrial that needs to be restarted. - Navani is the one that is actually holding the Kingdom together while her two husbands are incapacitated. Both when Gavilar was losing it in the period before his asssassination, and when Dalinar has trouble when remembering his past. She several times shows a very good ability to unite and make people try to work together. - We don't know if she is broken. As Adolin or Shallan, she might just be good at hiding it. She has lost her husband in a dramatic assassination, I am sure she mourned not being able to choose Dalinar instead of Gavilar, there was something terrible that happened to her daughter when she was very young, her daughter was reportedly killed, and she belived that was true for a long time, and right after Jasnah returned, her son is killed. Quite a roller coaster of a life, I think. And I guess there is more that we don't know anything about. I am sure I can list more arguments, but first I would like to hear if there are evidences against my theory. Anyone?

Thanks for some new and interesting thoughts on these two characters. And thanks for understanding my intention with my post.

I find the most intriguing part of the series is to study how different people cope with the same circumstances. I fear that we may limit our thinking by putting a label on how we philosophize. Take Taravangian, who has been given the ability to peep into the future. Renarin has too, in a way. How are they using their ability? What are they doing differently? And why is Adolin able to take up a certain level of responsibility despite of being raised in the shadow of his very dominant father? And at the same time, Elhokar is never able to reach any kind of independant leadership that is respected, maybe because he never got the chance to try leading on his own? And funnily enough, Elhohar ends up trying to become a real king, at the same time that Adolin refuses to become one. Or Kaladin versus Elhokar. Why is Kaladin seen as a hero, while Elhokar only dreams of being one?

As I am not a native English speaker, I must ask you to please explain to me what you mean by the word "foils". What I intended with my post, was to start searching for more interesting character lines to compare than the obvious ones, like Dalinar/Amaram or Kaladin/Moash. And to find out if there are ways to compare people with some similar traits/injuries/experiences that react differently to the same experience, and what we may learn from the way they cope.

What do you mean is stretching it? I find it interesting to see how they are coping differently. Would be interesting to see if Gaz ends up teaching other one-eyed people "one-eyed Alethi jokes" just to make them feel better. But thinking about it, he might just do things like that after Shallan has influenced him for a while.

Hi! I am no sure if this has been covered already, but it strikes me that Sanderson does a lot of comparing two pairs of characters, and showing us how one of them chooses differently than the other when given approximately the same chances, opportunities or difficulties. I will list the pairs that I have noticed already, I bet there are many more that I haven't discovered. I would be happy if you could point others out to me, because this kind of thinking appeals to my crypticspren. Also, I am interested in hearing about your reactions to the pairs, and how they solve their problems differently, and why perhaps one has found better solutions that the other of the pair. 1. Kaladin and Moash: They are both from difficult backgrounds and bear a grudge towards lighteyes/the king. Both lost close family members because of Elhokar's and Roshone's faults. They both get the opportunity to lead a team of slaves and to convert them into something more. Both are forced to lead a siege front line crew. 2. Dalinar and Amaram: Both have an honorable facade. Both have troubled pasts where they have done terrible things in war. Both believe in honour. Both are challenged by Odium and forced to be a part of Odium's plan. 3. Shallan and Kaladin: Both have very difficult pasts and troublesome memories that they try to cover up. Both are early radiants that are forced to find out about their nahel bond by themselves, with very little help. Both struggle with psychological challenges. Both have met Gaz and Tvlakv while being a slave or a lone woman without resources. 4: Shallan and Szeth: Both seem to have bonded a spren early and to have "killed" their spren by being forced to abandon their bond. 5. Elhokar and Shallan: Both are lying to themselves. Elhokar refuses to see his shortcomings, and Shallan is unable to remember her terrible past. Both are budding lightweavers. 6: Jasnah and Shallan: Both are scolars with a difficult childhood. We know that they have experienced very traumatic incidents when they were very young. 7: Gaz and Lopen: Both struggle with missing body parts: Lopen missing an arm, Gaz missing an eye. 8: Adolin and Elhokar: Both grew up in the shadow of very powerful fathers with all kinds of resources available. I could go on like this. But I would be interested in what kind of comparisons or patterns other people see? And how you see the differences in solutions that the characters come up with?

This thread is really hilarious for me to read. I am married to a man almost 16 years younger than me. We have loved each other for more than 17 years, and there is nothing that indicates that we will feel differently for the rest of our lives. And when you think of the fact that women have a life expectancy that is longer than men, perhaps we will die about the same time. Anyway. Life before death, Journey before destination. So, who knows? And who cares, as long as we love? Nobody else can define or jugde the love between two people. I have no opinion when it comes to the jasnahdin combination. But I am sure, if Sanderson wanted to, he would be able to both make such a relation both logical, romantic, character developing and revealing, and surprising. I mean, it would not be the first time he surprised his readers. So, I don't think we can use what we have learned from the books until now to exclude the combination.

Haha! I just thought exactly the same yesterday, and found that the feeling was pleasant. Like litterature analysis suddenly was fun instead of boring. And then I thought: Why? Here we sit discussing a fantasy book series, the most loathed genre of litterature there is, almost, and the analysis of the classics was boring, and this is not. I find that interesting. Is it because we were younger then, and have matured? Is it because we are not able to grasp the genious of the classics? Or is it because Sanderson with his books of endless pages is able to create something entirely new? Something that almost resembles life itself, being able to show us in much more detail how different people feel about their lives and what happens to them, and force us to analyze in order to understand what is going on? Anyway, this kind of writing really speaks to my crypticspren. "Mmmmmmm.... Patternnnn.... ", it says all the time. And I start searching back and forth in the book to get more answers. Fun! Just like a puzzle.

Justi, you cannot possibly mean that every person in these books that are in danger suddenly becomes a radiant and is saved? I mean with Kaladin moaning about everyone he is unable to save, and the hordes of people that die, without any stormlight saving them. Taravangian says in his diagram: "look for the ones who survive when they should not". This is his recipe for finding the budding radiants. The ones who survive things that should have killed them are the ones that become radiants. Because they have already bonded a spren and are on their way to swear oaths. And naturally, those are the ones that have the most screen time. It is rather obvious to me that the ones that become radiant struggle for a long, long time before they swear their words, and that they often need a dangerous situation to be able to understand what their nexts Words are. All these things are described either very explicitly in the books, or the explanation is there, but you have to be observant to understand it. That you often have to struggle as a reader to get all the different connections and explanations is one of the biggest charms of the books to me. These books are not about action scenes only and cannot be understood if you refuse to read and understand the other parts of them.

If Shallan is wearing you out, it may not be Sanderson's fault. It may be yours. It may be that you don't understand the kind of person that Shallan is, and that you are not interested in finding out more about this character. It may also be that you are lacking in empathy, which means an interest in and understanding of other people who are different from you. I find that Sanderson is no less than a genious describing these characters, not telling us what they are like, but telling us stories about them told by themselves or by others, none of whom are very reliable sources. We are forced to interpret the stories we are told. Like investigators, we must never fall into the trap of believing a 100% what the different characters say about themselves or about others. Because they - and we - are biased. We are biased by our former experiences and our different personal characters. Shallan is an extremely interesting and complex character. Sanderson is never struggling to make the character work. It's working brilliantly and obviously after a master plan from the moment Shallan set foot on the docks of Kharbranth. But we are just shown bits and pieces of the puzzle that is Shallan. To tease us, to confuse us, to intrigue us and to force us to learn about other people's problems. To make us become impatient, angry or confused before we get the full story and understand why she is like she is. Kaladin is fooled big time. He is not able to see past his pejudices. And he several times feels like one of the ten fools when he discovers more about what hides under the pretty surface of Shallan Davar. I think Sanderson's intention is to slowly reveal to readers the same thing. Apart from the ones of us who understand Shallan immediately, because we are crushed in the same way, or we are artistic souls too, who communicate in metaphors and are driven by pattern recognition. Sanderson was never the one to go for easy plots and broad popularity. Cool thing that he is popular anyway. He manages to both deliver action stories and deep understanding at the same time. If you only understand the action, do not fall into the trap of believing that the rest is without value.

Pointing out that someone is disabled in a condescending way is considered very rude at least in my country.

I agree with all this. My problem is, I see Shallan in exactly the same light, and she is, as quoted earlier, not popular in the same way as Kaladin. She is actually also a main character, she has her own book with flashbacks, and she is obviously a hero, as argumented in my earlier post. As far as I can see, both Shallan and Kaladin have faults and do stupid things. But Shallan is hated for her faults by many. Kaladin is more often understood and supported, and he is seen as a hero by most readers. One might speculate that this is because she is a woman. But I fear this is an easy explanation. I think it is because we fear weakness. It is so easy to feel contempt towards weakness. Many people say they react strongly when reading about Shallan, they can't even bear to read about her. And so they never get to understand what drives a person like her. As I said before, I also think this might be a result of differences in character. Many people, who would have ended up as windrunners or elsecallers, had they become Knights Radiants, react to a lightweaver with vehemence by instinct, because they cannot understand what they believe are "lies". Shallan changes her persona in order to cope. The persona are of course still Shallan. They are different parts of her personality that she does not dare expose as "herself". It's not a lie. It's just an actor's way to cope. She is an artist. Artists explain feelings and phenomenons by acting, by telling stories, by "giving the truth scope", to quote a movie. Wit does the same thing. He actually says:" The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you what to think, but to give you stories to think upon". This is the reason why Shallan is able to change people to become better versions of themselves. She never instructs them, she inspires them. This is an indirect way of "hero work", and perhaps not so obvious as being a flying spearman. But it is a very important work. I guess the reason why many readers never realize this is that they never actually read her chapters, or they read very superficially. And then they never come to grips with essential parts and depths of the story. And why don't they read? Are they afraid of meeting someone who is terrified? Do they hate to see a person that is strong despite a weak position? There must be a deeper reason behind these strong reactions? Anyway, here are lists of examples of what Kaladin has done, and what Shallan has done. Negative things towards others. Why is one a hero and the other someone to despise? Kaladin: - Mocking Renarin and his disability openly - Bragging about his ability to fight to Zahel, and telling that he does not need to learn to fight a shardbearer, since he knows everything there is to learn. - Always depressed and giving up hope but still able to motivate the people he is protecting after pulling himself together. - Reacts to Shallans quips with anger and contempt, thinking she is a spoilt lighteyes with an empty mind. Without knowing anything more about her. - Taking the lead trying to find their way back down in the chasms without checking at all if Shallan has an idea of how to get out. - Behaving in an unfeeling way towards Lin, when she wishes to join bridge 4, thinking automatically that she should be a scribe because she is a woman. - Behaves very rudely towards Dalinar and Adolin, even though he has reason to believe that they are good persons. He is of course biased because he has earlier been betrayed by other lighteyes, and thus unable to free himself from this feeling. - Behaves rudely towards Shallan almost every time they meet. It must be said that she often teases him and that he often misunderstands her quips. - Breaking his word to Dalinar and actively planning to kill the person he has sworn to protect. Shallan: - Gets tangled in Tyn's plot to force her to play horneater princess and tricks Kaladin, who is a guard captain, into giving her his boots. - Kills her mother in self defence - Even though she is basically terrified all the time, she saves the psychological health of her brothers in a completely unbearable situation, and at last kills her father in self defense. - Gets into quarrels with Kaladin, and sometimes starts the quarrels herself. Often, these quarrels are started by Kaladin, because he mistrusts her. - Has trouble deciding whom she likes the most, Kaladin or Adolin. - Stealing from Jasnah to try to save her brothers. But giving the item back when her own life was in danger. - Not loving Kabsal. These are examples of situations where the two characters have said or done something negative towards other people. What they do to themselves is not included. How is it possible, when looking at these lists, to say that Shallan is a terrible person and that Kaladin is a hero?

That gave me the goosebumps. Of course that will be her ultimate oath/words, very logical. I am not a frequent reader here, so this has passed me by. Also to Justi saying: "But that is not the point because what I mean with “something impressive” is “something impressive for readers”. Did her split personality raised her popularity? Suddenly she become interesting character everybody wanted to know more about? Will 4th book will be about her new Powers? No. Any other hero/antihero in same path created some exciment. Except Shallan." I do not agree that a hero is defined by his or her popularity. I think that is the mind set of a bully or a person that easily will follow a bully. A hero for me, is a person who stands up despite his or her difficulties, and does her or his best to make the world a better place. Shallan does that. This morning I listened to Words of Radiance while baking, and I was shocked by how Kaladin was snickering and openly mocking Renarin's first struggles with blade and plate. Not in a bridge-four-bantering way, but really mocking Renarins abilities. Kaladin very often does things like that, looking down on people, breaking his word, being basically a jerk. And people love him for it. Why?

I cannot understand how people think Shallan fails to do something impressive. Let me make a list: - She turns Tvlakv, Bluth, Vatha, Gaz, and their companions around from being murderers and robbers into being heros. These are people whom Kaladin only managed to make even worse. Kaladin was a slave, true, but Shallan was a lone, wounded woman in the wastelands, without any resources that she knew of. And she managed to make Tvalkv listen to her and transport her, willingly, to the shattered plains, Gaz was turned into a positive, happy servant instead of an angry gameoholic. Vatha is actually starting to lightweave on his obvious way to being a knight radiant. Saved from being an obvious outlaw, possibly murderer and rapist for what we know. - She turns almost everyone she meets into a better version of themselves. Elhokar gets a new and optimistic view on himself because of her drawing of him. If she had been able to do that earlier, it may have gotten him to say his words earlier and thus saved him. - She turns Adolin into a more interesting person, because she is able to see his intelligence that he has hidden under his good looks and dueling capacity. Many people that are popular hide their intelligence both to themselves and to others. Perhaps in order to at least have some friends. Adolin is almost shocked out of this hiding by Shallan's brutal honesty and bluntness. She is not able to stop her quips, and that is what gets him out of his two-dimensional state. "How do you poop?" - She saves the day so many times. She finds Urithiru, and saves thousands of people, including most of our heros. She upholds the Sadeas army until help comes from Urithiru in the battle of Thaylen City. If it wasn't for her, the Sadeas army would have swarmed the city and killed many, among them Queen Fen and her consort, and Navani. - She saves Kaladin and herself in the chasms. She lends Kaladin her shardblade, even though she is mortally arfraid of even admitting that she carries the blade that killed her mother. And she distracts the chasmfiend to save Kaladin while he was disarmed and beaten by the monster. She also climbs up and digs out the cubby that saves them, and both physically and mentally drags Kaladin the last bit up to it. And she gets them out, because of her ability to remember patterns and extrapolate from limited information. - She gives Kaladin hope when she shows him that it is possible to carry on and see the positive side of things even if your world and your self has been crushed. "She smiled anyway" - Her sense of pattern recognition, of course assisted by Pattern is crucial for a lot of the studies that has been necessary for progress. For instance her extrapolating the pattern of the shattered plains to find the centre. - Her kindness to the poor is heart warming. It is not her fault that evil people controls a criminal system that she is not aware of. As a rape victim is not to blame for the crime, Shallan is not to blame for the killing of Grund. People around a rape victim often start to blame her for what happened, but the rapist is the only one to blame. SO, we must not be fooled by the fact that many of the poor people she gave food to blames her. They are afraid and desperate, and need someone to be angry at. I require of the reader to be so mature as to see that even though everyone, even Shallan herself, blames her for what happened, it is completely unfair. She was trying to help, and that is kind. - She manages to spy and find out many important things: She infliltrates the Cult of Moments and finds out about the Heart of the Revel, and how things actually stand around the oathgate of Kholinar. She investigates and finds out the logic of The Midnight Mother, and even finds out where she is located, and frightens her off. She also studies the currupted spren and finds out about Sja-Anat and how she may be willing to betray Odium. She is perhaps the only one of our protagonists who consistently uncovers new information. When Jasnah arrives at Urithiru, she is surprised that all her own investigation is obsolete because of Shallan's work. - She also infiltrates the Ghostbloods, very risky and without knowing anything more about them than that they killed Jasnah, as far as she knew. She instinctly knows that she can get valuable information through that organisation. And because of this very dangerous double agent activity, she is able to save her brothers, get more info about the clandestine organisations that our alliance are struggling with in order to unite Roshar against Odium. Dalinar and Kaladin, yes even Jasnah are completely unaware of many of the things Mraize knows. To be able to stand alone as a secret double agent like this is very, very brave. - She literally saves Kaladin, Adolin and Azure after they fall into Shadesmar, and gets them to safe ground. She also saves them many times during their trip through Shadesmar, and delays the attack of the fused at the oathgate of Thaylen City. Delaying tactics are often very important, and this time it may have saved Adolin's life, as he probably would have been wounded long before, and not being able to survive until Dalinar set up his perpendicularity. - She actually helps Jasnah in her studies, and also helps Jasnah see things in a more positive way. Jasnah is horribly alone with her thoughts and theories. Shallan belives in Jasnah's theories and supports her. This may not seem so important as many people believe Jasnah is a machine of some sorts, but she is not. - We often see Shallan through the eyes of Kaladin and Jasnah. These are not very trustworthy when it comes to judging such a person as Shallan. We know that honorspren and cryptics are at odds with each other, and windrunners are much too bound by oaths and box-thinking around the truth to understand how a lightweaver might get to an even more real truth by using "lies". Jasnah is perhaps even more bound by strict logical thinking. Wit understands Shallan's artistic approach to the truth fully. We are more helped by trusting Wit's words in judging Shallan. Jasnah does not understand how Shallan has trouble concentrating immediately after Shallan has 1) relived her killing of her mother, that she had managed to supress, and 2) confronted and chased away the Midnight frickin Mother. How can we possibly trust Jasnah's judgement of Shallan? Kaladin is angry, depressed and prone to resentment. His good opinion once lost, is lost forever. In addition, Shallan's artistic side is drawn towards his good looks and dramatic appearance. This makes Shallan a very confusing person to judge for him. It does not mean that we should completely trust Kaladin's opinion of her either. I could sit her all day and list Shallans positive sides, but I am sure more of you are able to see these if you try. It is a useful exercise in seeing through biases.

In a way, I am grateful for this thread. I shows me why teenagers and children with severe trauma and difficult childhoods often are bullied at school. People are unable to relate to their problems, even when the reasons for their behaviour are described in awful, horrible detail. I find Shallan one of the most interesting characters in the series, and mostly so in Oathbringer. The last thing that happened in WoR was that Shallan was forced to remember that she actually killed her mother at 11 years of age. And that was after her mother tried to kill her. It is totally logical that a 17 old girl that has had a totally horrible childhood without any socialisation whatsoever, behaves weirdly at times. And if she did not experience a worsening of her symptoms after being forced to relive the worst nightmare of her childhood, and confess that she was the one who killed her mother and her guilt feelings for what started the whole mess with her father's abusive ways and the destruction of her whole family, well, I would say the book would have been unrealistic and not interesting to me. I think many people forget that at the beginning of OB, Shallan had remembered her killing her mother just days ago. She was almost destroyed by the memory. But I hope it was what she needed to heal, perhaps in the next book in the series. I just love that Sanderson never explains these things in an easy, direct way. I makes it easier to understand human relations. And the nature of bullying.

I have been pondering this question now for many months. I now think it will be someting like: "I will forgive myself for not being able to protect everyone." We have seen that forgiveness is a very important factor in this book, and if we look at all the episodes that Kaladin is remembering over and over again, pestering his mind and feeding his depression, every one of them is about him failing to save other people. At the same time, this ideal is so difficult for him to swear that he has to see Adolin and Dalinar almost die and the whole war lost (as far as he could judge then) if he did not swear it, and he still could not do it. If you are the kind of person that Kaladin is, haunted by depression, quick to take the blame and always over-thinking everything honorable, you find it very hard to forgive yourself for your failures. You haven't got it in you. We can see that in the haunted look in his face, the" brightlord brooding-eyes", and the way he always punishes himself. Forgiveness is a very powerful thing. It has the power to set you free in a way you can never imagine before you manage to do it. But it is extremely hard to turn your mind arount to do it, if you are in the middle of a deep depression.

I am very fascinated by Cultivation and what kind of strategic opportunities she may be adding to Dalinar's plans. So far I have mostly seen theories on what Honor and his shards and spren may contribute to the "good" side, and we know very little about Cultivation. But I wonder: Is it possible to theorize and have fun imagining what kind of weapons and powers a God of cultivation and Nature must be able to bring forth? It is easy to think that Cultivation is only about weak and "boring" stuff as gardening and pruning, as we have only seen Wyndle, who is constantly talking of gardening and being afraid of action. We have obviously also seen Cultivation herself, and she looks like a very powerful being indeed, both with her roots in the ground and controlling Nature, but she is able to intervene directly inside Dalinar's mind and body, and change him. Knowing a little of Nature, I think Cultivation may turn out to be a very powerful, alive and strong strategic ally in a war. As stated several places in OB, shardbearers cannot hold ground. You need boots on the ground to hold an area. I somehow imagine Honor as the one conquering ground and Cultivation as the one holding the ground. Are there things that we know about Cultivation from the books and from WOB, that we may combine with things that we know regarding Nature in general, and everything culture and cultivation that may be combined, that will give us a better basis for understanding how Cultivation may be a very powerful strategic ally in this war? A power that it seems very few actually are valuing enough, both in-world and as readers? Let me add a short list of what springs to my mind when thinking of Cultivation as a power: - Boots on the ground. Or roots in the ground. Every plant and every creature may be influenced by her. - Resistance. Imagine the kind of resistance and land holding capacity possible by such a force - Balance. Never any change without a balancing change in the other direction. Boon/ bane? - Diversity. Nature insists on diversity. That is why it is so difficult to grow monocultures. The more you try to eradicate weeds, the more they fight back. Balance comes only when there are many different species competing and ending up in a balanced diversity. - Slow but powerful changes and growth that happens without anyone noticing. - Can she cultivate Honor? Make it grow? Cultivation is already a very powerful and alive shard that has influenced Rohar for millennia. All this power is already holding ground all over the continent. In addition we know that an even share of the surgebinding powers are of Cultivation, probably meaning that she is able to influence more actively through surges. I guess we have only seen Lift using pure cultivation power, or is there more that has been described? Anyway? Any other ideas and knowledge to add to this? Perhaps a discussion will help us find our more about this shard and the possible advantages of such a force? -

Haha! Yeay! Extended Cosmere theories! I'm with you.

I really would like to support Moash, and I hoped for him all the way until he killed Elhokar. But then I realized he never even tried. Kaladin helped people all the time, long before he attracted Syl. She says that was what attracted her in the first place. He helped young boys in the army, but he also putting others before himself before that. He was learning to help others as his father's apprentice, even though he was very young and made mistakes and forgot the time, as all youngsters do. But he tries, and he learns. He also tries to help the little girl that fell down and broke her leg and her skull, and that was without his father telling him to do it. I get the image of a young boy that really wishes to help others. This attracts his honorspren. I get the feeling it is not so much his actions as his intentions that makes the difference. Every time Moash gets a chance of doing something for others, he refuses. (Correct me if I have forgotten something) He is even the last of the bridgemen to follow Kaladin. I can't remember a single time that he did something without having a personal gain from it. Now, I had hopes that he would change, and perhaps he could have, if there was time. Elhokar also tried to change finally, and he actually did it, but too late. Anyway, the reason why Moash did not have any magical fairy saving him when he was about to to something stupid is that he never did anything to attract any magical fairies in the first place. This way of thinking is exactly what I feel Odium is looking for. The sullen "it's not my fault, I never got any spren to look after me". I am the first one to look into people's backgrounds and find excuses for them. But this thing here is not about which cards you are given. It's about what you try to do with the cards you got. Sadeas and Dalinar both came from similar backgrounds. Chose differently. Moash and Kaladin same stuff. It is their active choices and what they try to do that makes the difference.

Even Dalinar blames others, and because of that he is in Odium's claws for most of his life. Dalinar is way worse off than Moash. But Dalinar tries. And he gets some time, granted by Cultivation, to get used to the memories of what he was, before he has to confront Odium for real. Some time to grow stronger in his new ways. So yes, Dalinar also gets help. But that help comes from the fact that he asked for forgiveness when he went to the Nightwatcher many years ago. It started there. You have to try. Moash never tries, so he gets no help. Moash blames others and is soaked with anger at everybody else and the only one who wants to help him is Odium.

I agree that Moash may have had a harder start in his early childhood, and that that may be an explanation. But, as IntentAwesome mentions, Odium has a much easier job of conquering the ones who blames others for their problems. Shallan had a much more awful childhood than - I wager - every other character among our protagonists. And she never blames others, only herself. Which of course is "wrong", meaning that she did not have any responsibility for the actions of her parents. But she takes responsibility for the things she had to do, and the things she was not yet able to do. Which is a noble thing. Even if it is also the thing that breaks her. But she will be able to grow, and then become stonger and wiser because of it. I think that we are much more capable of choosing than many people think. We can choose to start to take responsibility for our actions. Just as Dalinar did right now. It's a struggle, as we have seen, but you need to try. And Moash never tries.

YES! Exactly!

Ah, so Gavilar had the black sphere because he wondered how to bond the spren in it? Makes sense. So, the Kholins were really close to doing the ultimate blunder there. Good thing only Aesudan swallowed it, and was far away at the moment. I really have to read the book again, I read too fast. I alway do that the first time. Just have to save up some extra time, I spent what I had saved up binge-reading. Addition edit: We agree that Moash is basically crem, and has no real values. But then another question jumps up in my mind: Why did Kaladin consider him his best friend? There must have been some qualities there after all? Or was Kaladin so desperate that he was decieved?

Yes. Rock bottom really does things to you, doesn't it? Thanks for a very good answer.