Leyrann

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

Scadrial is the only place that I can see this action playing out. If she views the humans there as an extention of R&P due to their creation by the Shards, their inevitable expansion into the Greater Cosmere is the expansion of R&P's influence. 

Then why did Trell only decide in BoM to wipe out Scadrian civilization, rather than taking control of the planet? Clearly that isn't because of R&P having made the humans, as that has been true at all times. In fact, the given reason is actually Scadrian technological advancements.

Also note that, apparently, this problem only appeared when the Set did not manage it's play for the Elendel Basin. Considering the Industrial Revolution has been going on Scadrial for a good while now, any Shard should be aware that it is very unlikely for technological progress to stop at this point, so it's clearly about who controls the planet, rather than just the technological advances.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Fanghur Rahl I think that the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see its living creations grow and be independent the part that believed that interfering to much would stifle their growth.

As such, I think that Autonomy's main drive is autonomy from the influence of the Shards. I don't think the intent cares about general freedom or servitude or self-sufficiency to nearly the extent that it views the need for freedom from the influence of the Shards themselves. 

So when I say the intent isn't self directed, I mean that what she's doing on Scadrial is a direct result of her intent, and that the hypocrisy of her actions are the same. She doesn't see that what she's doing is as bad or worse than the others, because she can't. 

If the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see it's living creations grow and be independent, then isn't what (that part of) Adonalsium thinks "they should be free from me"? That's a direct contradiction with what follows in your argument.

But will Dalinar not likely take more of a guiding role now that there is a strong leader (Jasnah) on the throne? Him writing an autobiography, as well, could be a sign that he's going to take a little more of a backseat after Thaylen City. And once Kaladin figures out some of his problems (and says the Fourth Ideal), he can probably be the day-to-day leader of the Knights Radiant, but who still goes to Dalinar for council.

11 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Dalinar DID just learn how to read and write

This is an important thing though. Spoken and written text are very different, in particular with spoken text repeating itself a lot more. If you've never written or read a word in your life this might very well be the result.

15 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

I think naming him ‘Obligation’ even if a large number of readers never get it is kind of awesome. After all, he and Evi were seeking an alliance that would obligate Dalinar and Co. To provide support and defense..

A sort of nod to all of the fans who stuck with WoT for 20 years. 

I wouldn't say he has toh towards anyone though, at least not that we know of.

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Stop being so smug.  

12 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

We need to make "Calderised" a verb for situations like this.

Last time it was RShara though...

11 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Or Cultivation. Or a reformed Devotion/Dominion, if certain cryptic hints about Trell and Sel are anything other than a red herring: 

You know what, I could see a reformed Dominion doing this as well.

I do agree with @Calderis however that it wouldn't be likely for us to discover that through Mistborn Era 2. In that case, I expect that we will not learn (much) more about "Trell" in The Lost Metal, but rather learn about this in Mistborn Era 3. Also keep in mind this WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Elantris sequels

The Emperor’s Soul is now two years old, so it is probably time to get back to Sel and do some more there. We should be releasing a trade paperback of Elantris in the next year or two, with revised (and new) maps and a better Ars Arcanum. (Read: an Ars Arcanum.)

The full sequels will need to be finished before I can do the contemporary (1980s tech) Mistborn novels because of behind-the-scenes Cosmere bits, so I will do my best to find a place to squeeze these in. At the very least, I will write them following the end of Stormlight 5. So, these are distant, but not too distant.

Just now, Calderis said:

Trell is a Shard we know. 

Through that and process of elimination, we get down to Trell being either Odium or Autonomy. 

This is why the Autonomy=Trell theory is so popular 

...Are you freaking kidding me.

I read every WoB about Trell to make sure this wasn't the case and it's still the case.

Bear with me for a moment.

I was convinced of this - popular - assumption myself as well, until I read the epilogue of Bands of Mourning. For context, one of the red-eyed creatures (who are apparently the Trell version of Kandra in some way; that's what the Set considers them at least) visits Suit in prison and, after this exchange, blows up the entire thing. All bolded mine, as well as things in square brackets.

Quote

"Our accelerated pace will no longer require the Set to have its full hierarchy."

"But you need us!" Suit said. "To rule, to manage civilization on--" [most likely Scadrial]

"No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service; it has been accepted. You will be allowed to serve in another realm."

This very strongly implies that the Set and Trell are Cosmere aware, and likely even have interplanetary contact.

Now, you're probably saying, of course Trell is Cosmere aware, being a Shard and all.

But what about the people on worlds controlled by Autonomy? Sure, Khriss is from Taldain, but despite having a university education, she originally has no knowledge of the Cosmere. And as for First of the Sun, the locals are only aware of the Cosmere insofar they're in touch with the Ones Above. [Note: this is my assumption from the Coppermind, I have admittedly not read First of the Sun myself]

So if Trell is Autonomy, why would the Set be Cosmere aware?

It just doesn't fit with what we know of Autonomy.

Now, I realize the primary argument for Autonomy = Trell is that we know that Autonomy is known to meddle with other planets. That is, however, a minor hint at most. And - personal opinion here - doesn't it seem a little convenient that we have an obvious case of a Shard meddling on another planet?

I know, that's not an argument against it in itself. It's not intended to be, I mostly intend to say that it shouldn't be considered an argument in favor of the theory.

This all of course doesn't mean much, unless I come with something better - or at least something else, as I realize I'm drawing from a contested theory here.

I think Trell is the Shard I originally named Curiosity when I made an attempt to predict the Shards, though I now believe that name may be off - or at the very least not it's only possible interpretation. Note how I theorize this Shard is about change, with a focus on change in thoughts and position or movement. As I summarized in the theory, wanting thoughts to change and wanting to be everywhere.

This certainly fits the Set's technological advancements in various areas (reverse engineering Southerner technology, phones, etc) and also fits an expansionist drive to cover more and more worlds - very befitting the image that I remember popping up in my mind when considering this Shard for the linked theory half a year ago, of a ship exploring unknown lands to find new, well, anything. In fact, as I am writing this picture down, I realize how close Trell could have potentially - if his plans would have worked out as intended previous to Bands of Mourning - colonized Scadrial and subjugated the local population, much like Europe subjugated the rest of the world in the colonial era. (in fact that may still be his plan)

Having said that, I think Curiosity is too friendly a name for a Shard willing to conquer just to find explore - though it is only logical, as Shards are aspects taken to their extreme. As for what the Shard's name should be, I have given this quite a bit of thought and I find it hard to come with a definitive answer, and I find that, in the end, I come to something that can be very similar - but just keep in mind the idea of "your freedom fighters are our terrorists". I think that this Shard may be called Liberation, as it attempts to give people the freedom to expand their knowledge and spread, as well as aiming to do so itself - liberating it from more closeminded entities, so to say. Other Intent names I have considered are Sovereignty, Rulership, Expansionism, Colonialism, but I do not like any of those - and really, I'm not too much a fan of Liberation either, but I simply cannot think of anything better.

One last thing, mostly unrelated to everything else, I think we may be in for a surprise when The Lost Metal comes around. To specify, I think we're going to see the first in-book signs of interplanetary contact as Trell's other controlled planet(s) have to be held back from Scadrial. Whether or not this happens, I expect that, by the time MB Era 3 rolls around, at the very least the existence of other inhabited planets will be commonplace. We may be getting the first signs of the Cosmere showdown earlier than we thought.

On 21-9-2018 at 8:09 AM, Yata said:

How ?

Always take note of whether people are members of the DA.

12 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

He went off with Ji.

Naming him "Toh" has been one of Brandon's bigger mistakes.

Just now, Calderis said:

That's the entire issue. He's not a part of the Oathpact, and the Heralds are confined on his home turf during the torture. So what's stopping him? 

14 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Perhaps something of the other pact (not the Oathpact) that he made with H&C? Perhaps the Oathpact ensures outside interference is impossible?

You yourself noted that something has to be in place, as it could take hundreds of years between Desolations at first.

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I honestly fail to see how the prior desolations managed to have any significant time frame between them at all, because I have no doubt that a Shard would have no issue making any human break.

But it's not Odium doing the torturing; he's not even part of the Oathpact. It's the Fused doing the torturing.

3 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

So sorry to disappoint the various proponents of this theory, but I asked brandon about when Taln broke last night. He didn't want to put an exact date on it, due to not having written Taln's book yet, but he said it was during or in the preceding months of the events of WoK, meaning the idea of Taln being "held back" is false. It does sound like it took him a while to get to Roshar, so it looks like I was right about him possibly having sat around Braize for a while before heading to Kholinar, which would be why he was late. Now of course Calderis is still insisting that Taln might not have been tortured as much as the other heralds were normally, but I still disagree with that. While I agree with the idea that Odium did benefit from waiting so long, this confirmation increases the chances that Odium is simply taking advantage of the situation he is given, not that he specifically orchestrated Taln to break exactly when he did. 

Even though I'm happy to see this (I didn't like @Calderis's theory) this does make me wonder:

Taln breaking and the Alethi discovering the Parshendi is seemingly unrelated. Why did it happen so close together?

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Do we even have a rigorous definition of what a Spren is? Because the term is used so broadly in SLA that it basically includes absolutely everything that’s Investiture-based, including Shards themselves.

That's basically the only definition there is, as "spren" is Rosharan in origin.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont know about the First Law, but the Third Law of Thermodynamics is Entropy, and that one gets personified every other week. 

And ironically, it is the one people tend to understand the worst.

18 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Dont think we'd get literal Investiture Spren or Shardspren, because as others have said that's a bit of lingual paradox.  But as the populace as a whole became more realmicly aware you might get things like IdentitySpren or ConnectionSpren, though there's a very real possibility that those are basically covered with like Honor-spren or something.  You could definitely get more specific subsets as technology develops, I could see thinks like Shipspren or even gunspren. Starspren would become more prevalent to a space-fairing culture, etc. 

There's also the point of, we modern day humans like personifying things like death or fire or whatever, but have you ever heard about someone personifying quarks or the First Law of Thermodynamics?

On 8-8-2018 at 7:46 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

He seems quite good at reading and understanding non-verbal social queues in others and in showing empathy to those close to him.  He also never really demonstrates any abnormal behavior or speech (when not seeing literal visions of the future), just very withdrawn behavior.  We've never seen anything like Steris' marriage contract for example, Renarin seems to have a good grasp on societal norms.  He's also not overly fixated on certain behavior patterns and routines, if anything he shows good initiative in pursuing new experiences (trying to master the sword, choosing to join Bridge 4).

I have never been diagnosed with Asperger (I did get diagnosed with autism), but I likely do have it (word of an expert, but again, not formally diagnosed), and what you mention here is very familiar to me. I can read and understand non-verbal social cues, but that's in part because I've consciously learned how to do so. I also don't have any abnormal behaviour or speech (except a few minor things* which you can see with Renarin as well, as mentioned elsewhere) and I understand societal norms as well; I just get tired having to participate in it, something that Renarin also seems to suffer from, if that first quote in the OP is any indication.

I guess the bottom line is that, within the confines of "autism" or perhaps even Asperger there is a lot of variety.

*Basically everything I mentioned in brackets here is my abnormal speech. I also tend to want to move a body part repetitively as mentioned elsewhere, which is normally my leg hidden under a table

I think the problem with an Investiturespren is that it's, uhm, investiture personified by investiture? Plus, Investiture is simply more basic than the things that are personified; we don't have matterspren or energyspren either.

As for the Shards, they are, in a way, already spren. The definition of spren is... quite broad.

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Highstorm is not the perpendicularity, the Stormfather is or is connected to it.

The Stormfather is/absorbed Honor/Tanavast's cognitive shadow (he's complicated/special  ).  He has connection to the remnants of Honor. The Stormfather rides the storms, but he is also running around looking for a Bondsmith to bond. Now that he has found one in Dalinar he is both with the Highstorm, but also with Dalinar. 

He's "a little more omnipresent". He's in multiple places at once and where the perpendicularity shows up in the cognitive realm may depend on where he is focusing his attention or mind. 

For instance, in WoK when Kaladin is left to be judged by the Stormfather, he seems to travel into a different realm briefly when the Stormfather looks at him. 

Then again Kaladin is pulled out of the Physical Realm when talking to the Stormfather in WoR Chapter 74:

The Highstorm that spans the entire continent North - South when it passes over. The perpendicularity location may depend on where within the storm the Stormfather is actually hanging out or is focusing his attention.  

But Jasnah did not return to the Physical Realm in the middle of a highstorm.

26 minutes ago, supersmith said:

maybe it's just a kind of predictable that hasn't been noticed, like how the shattered plains were secretly a pattern.  

I assume the 17th Shard and Silverlight are better at figuring that kind of thing out than the Roshar natives.

2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Unless Trell/Autonomy manages to make good on their threat and destroys Scadrial, and Harmony either decides to help deal with Odium before fixing the damage or for whatever reason discovers that after all this time he needs the power to build things up in order to put Scadrial back together.

And then there's no setting for Mistborn 3 and 4.

Yup. I believe Transportation doesn't only allow you to move between realms, but can also create movement in a single Realm.

In fact, I think that the foundation of it's workings like that are the same as with ironpulling and steelpushing; you're changing the distance between two objects, rather than manipulating gravity or some other force.

7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I actually think Taln appeared next to Kholinar merely because that was the current location of Honor's Perpendicularity.  A Herald spawning at the point of the greatest concentration of Honor's investiture seems to make logical sense to me due to the Oathpact being a thing of Honor.

We know Honor's Perpendicularity moves around, although we don't know exactly how or why.  It does not seem to be linked to the current location of the Highstorm.  Jasnah's reappearance at the end of WoR in the Unclaimed Hills was likely because Honor's Perpendicularity was located there at that time.  I personally suspect the location of Honor's Perpendicularity has something to do with the moons of Roshar, as Hoid's epilogue encounters with Taln+Jasnah both occurred during the night (Roshar's moons always pass overhead during the night), although this could just be a coincidence.

Wouldn't that make the Perpendicularity predictable though? I thought it was considered unpredictable.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except the visions were made after the Recreance.

Honor was dying, and he knew it. But the point at which those visions were made was once the Radiants were gone, and all he could do was plan for the future. 

He's not as good at future sight, by his own words, but all shards have it. 

He said the wait was intentional, after the fall of the Radiants themselves. What exactly could he have been referring to? 

He could still have been referring to present strife. There was plenty; the Recreance didn't change any of that, it just highlighted it. He could perhaps have seen the Sunmaker's conquering and have seen the possiblities of both a united Roshar and warring pieces, or the Shin invasions, the Hierocracy, etc. He could even have been giving a general warning with his knowledge of human nature.

All that said I do understand why you take this interpretation, and I agree that it is one of the more simple explanations. However, that alone doesn't mean it automatically discounts all arguments against this theory. It's only normal to have seemingly contrary arguments, and only by weighing both sides you can find out what's actually true. On top of that, Honor isn't all-knowing. It is possible that he just got this wrong, even if it is unlikely.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Except again, that contradicts both the words of the Sleepless, and Honor himself. 

Or perhaps you're interpreting them wrong. The Aimians for certain are speculating (notice the questions and the "perhaps", rather than statements), and Honor could be referring to a variety of things; he might have been referring to problems among the Radiants, which is widely speculated to be one of the reasons if not the reason the Recreants happened. Remember that Honor, as far as we have seen, is not very good at seeing the future (though Cultivation is); how could he have known that, some two millennia in the future, mankind wouldn't be united under one ruler? If Sunmaker's empire had not fallen apart, that might very well have been the case.

But even if they do point towards Odium deliberately waiting, that does not mean that those two arguments immediately dismiss the many arguments brought against it in this thread. I think you do not give those other arguments enough credit at the moment.