Asrael

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You guys have missed out on some excellent art in Part One while reading the sample chapters. - WoB (from the linked page earlier)

1) I knew it!!!!!

2) GIVE IT TO ME NOW!!!!! 

Unfortunately for me, I simply don't have the time to inhale Oathbringer as soon as it comes back, nor do I have the discipline to hold it at arms length and take small bites. Reading the early chapters is a healthy concession for me because when the book comes out I can just jump in where the early chapters left off and have that much less book to keep me from midterms, homework, and class projects. I will not be starting over when it comes out; though, I will certainly do a whole reread at the soonest (read: summer) opportunity.

Am I the only one who thinks she might just have the hots for Dalinar? Virtual King of Alethkar? Leader of the new Knights Radiant? The legendary Blackthorn? Perhaps the most powerful man in the world?

At least some of Brandon's characters have to be stereotypes some of the time 

Im definitely getting the vibe from these new chapters that Dalinar's boon/curse may not be what he thought they were... Which is utterly thrilling... I love this book so much O.O

19 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Sorry if I was unclear, what I am saying is two parts, first, physical memory loss, simple enough. Two, when he sees or hears her her name, the brain has been modified so that when that happens, instead of working as if he saw/heard her, it works as if he heard Shshsh or saw a blur respectively. I'm no Neurologist but to the extent of my knowledge that is how the brain functions, you have a part of your memories for everything and draw new connections to them every time it's relevant. (You connect your friend's face to some party if you see him there as well as to that house and to whatever you were doing) I just view the brain as a ridiculously complex computer program and to the extent of my knowledge it is, so I just see it as replacing two variables with different values.

So the reason that feels implausible/overly-complex to me is that I don't see any reason why his physical brain just couldn't start a new little neuron-cluster or whatever for new information about her. Having two, distinct, complex, physical alterations to his brain is too bizarre and out there for me to accept. 

So imagine the scene where they try to explain what happened. The explanation requires knowledge of brain physiology and chemistry that a) I'm quite confident these characters don't have, and b ) I don't want to slog through. The other alternative is that from the POV of the characters we never get an explanation, which would violate everything I've come to expect from BS.

Additionally (now that I'm at an actual computer):
* Have we seen a curse/boon lifted by stormlight before? Lift seems to have no trouble using stormlight and having a curse/boon. So that really would stretch plausibility.
* If not, have we seen a similar ailment fixed by stormlight? Again, I don't think restoring limbs severed spiritually is the same thing, and I can't think of another example. So no.
* Do we have good reason to believe this is the first time Dalinar has used stormlight? I don't think so. I would be surprised (admittedly only a bit) if Dalinar did what he did to Kadash without ever having tried out his powers before.
* Well maybe Dalinar has only used small amounts? I agree with @Calderis on this. We've seen no evidence of controlled, directed, stormlight healing. So if we want to suggest that this was a big "wound" that only just now is completely healed, or enough for him to remember things... that would require a physical wound to make any sense and I think I've made clear why I dislike the idea. If we want to suggest he has in fact been gradually healing his memory, show me evidence that he has been regaining memory. Like a prior passage where Dalinar hears stuff you think ought to be fuzzed out


My doubt of the stormlight theory has to do with what I've come to expect from Brandon. Good, engaging writing; big WOW moments that are just as simple as they are plausible and surprising. Healing by stormlight seems implausible based on what I've read, even though it's a fairly "simple" explanation. The best explanation I've seen so far which seems to fit the things I know is that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, in many ways a parallel to the Nightwatcher.

Even then, based on my experience with the past 12 or so Sanderson books I've read is that the explanation is going to wow me with how simple, plausible, and probably totally surprising it will be. Despite my best efforts, I have yet to best him on any actually significant plot point... grrrr.

15 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Yes, I am a Roman Catholic, but Brandon isn't sticking to an entirely Mormon point-of-view. The idea of God as having a certain amount of mystery to him is something a lot more general across religions. No one expects God is actually explain his actions, and all those Old Testament prophecies are certainly mysterious and confusing (very, very confusing). And can we please stop this argument on theology? It is getting a bit old and irrelevant to the thread's topic.

Ignores is a strong word--my apologies. I just suggested it's not a requirement for that reason. There are other traits (rightly included) which are much more generally accepted. That one in particular is distinctly uncharacteristic of the Mormon POV, so I think it's weaker than the other posited intents, or just "less essential". Like I said though--and I think Calderis hit this on the head--Brandon is quite capable of departing from his own perspective, but if he departs in any significant way, I suspect a larger departure then a smaller one.

Case in point: Unity is a very strong concept in Eastern religions (like the Oneness of the Iriali), so perhaps we need more consideration of distinctly non Judeo-Christian attributes? (and yes I know unity fits comfortably within a Trinitarian view)

17 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

To the first part, thinking of something requires knowing it, that requires remembering it, to part two, it could be only physical by means of modification of the part of his brain responsible for the processing of Evi as well as everything i said.

I get the sense that this is going to go on, so what exactly do you feel that the stormlight theory needs to answer before you see it as plausible?

Lol, essentially for Oathbringer to confirm it :P. If it proves true I will accept it without complaint. Or perhaps if we see any examples of stormlight healing something similar (I wouldn't consider restoring a severed soul limb similar). 

To your point, I don't think that there is a part of his brain responsible for processing Evi. For that to be remotely plausible to me you'd have to be suggesting that first his brain remembers her, then brings her to mind then fuzzes stuff out. And even if that's the case, that's some weeeeeiiird Jon science brain chemistry going on. I prefer the simple explanation that Dalinar has some block on have cognitive aspect, or has Connection to Evi or both. (Edit: perhaps the reason that the physical explanation bothers me is that I think explaining it within the narrative would be clunky as heck)

All in all though... I can't wait for the next Dalinar pov to actually give us some real data points.

26 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

The thing is, the part of the curse/boon that deals with memories could be purely physical, just am age or destroy or seperate the neurons and whatnot related to Evi, the only part requiring anything other then one time damage would be effecting him at the instant he sees Evi or hears her name, any point past that can be done with targeted damage to the brain.

Having it part physical part magical doesn't make sense OR fit with what we've seen. He has regained memory AND heard his wife's name when he shouldn't be able to. If the former were only physical damage then is the magic that suppresses any sound or image related to her just not able to block his thoughts? That seems like a really weird loophole. But again we've already seen both aspects lifted. 

I think its overly complex to suggest that the nightwatcher damaged his brain and put a magical filter in what he can see or hear. Much simpler (conceptually) to just magically filter all perception of his wife internal or external.

For these reasons I am strongly opposed to the idea that stormlight is the cause of the return of his ability to perceive his wife.

4 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

The thing is, (this is Catholic theology) God's nature is not entirely comprehendable. Like how God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person. We can't entirely understand it, understand him. And Enigma (Mystery, etc.) is also a part of human nature, which Adonalsium also seems to incorporate. People don't always make sense, and there are always things that confuse us. Confusion could be counted as part of Enigma, too.

Which ignores my point that Brandon is Mormon, and that's not how Mormons traditionally think about God. So I'm sure you're right from a Catholic perspective, but that's not Brandon's default perspective. Which is my point

On 10/13/2017 at 7:08 AM, Generalbacon74 said:

Anguish: pain, suffering, torment

I think this is interesting! For me it suggests some sort of divine Sympathy, a trait I don't believe really falls under any shards we've seen but is almost a requirement if were basing our theories on a Judeo/Christian god.

Awesome ideas! Love the groupings idea. One minor consideration: Brandon is Mormon and we don't generally attribute much "mystery" to God. To try to put it better, we tend to think of God more as a knowable being, or one who wants us to come to know him, rather than a more mainstream Christian conception that he is infinite and unknowable. So I would look elsewhere to fill Enigmas slot. That said, Brandon is fully capable of incorporating beliefs outside of his own, I just wouldnt' jump to that immediately

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Absolutely. It's going to be one of those things that we face-palm for not catching earlier. 

Been rereading Way of Kings and I'm wondering slightly if his other "gift" has anything to do with Navani. As he seems to have always had the hots for her pretty badly maybe that's a dead end, but I expect something with great story/character significance.

One thing I feel is not being treated clearly: Dalinar's inability to remember his wife must be strictly a magical barrier. If it was a physical 'wound' in any sense, there is no scientific explanation I've heard of that would make him unable to hear her name or look at a painting of her. Maybe that's obvious, but I see comments here and there that suggest otherwise. So my best guess is the nature of his boon/curse can only be removed magically, and I'm unconvinced basic stormlight healing cuts the mustard.

Another point I think is interesting is this: based on what I've come to expect from Brandon, we have most likely already seen Dalinar's boon/curse in action (the not Evi one). Which means its staring us in the face O.O

PS. I'm of the opinion Evi was his boon. We know that the loss of his wife was a heavy memory, and it seems to me to fit dramatically that he would seek to forget her. Can't wait to find out though

I sure as heck can't wait to find out! If Odium is defeated in Stormlight that would feel just a little anticlimactic on the Cosmere scale, but mostly I'm excited for Dragonsteel and the revelation of Rayse's character and motivations.

In the case of Scadrial at least, we know that Harmony has done some nudging to help things along. He has dropped hints about the sorts of things that are possible. As for Roshar, I don't think I have an answer for you other than to note that some of the things they do with fabrials are weirdly advanced. My best guess is that fabrial science is a big distraction from things like physics and chemistry.

9 hours ago, Justice said:

Briefly ignoring the debate on was it right/wrong to treat the Parshmen as slave labor, I am interested in the question posed here: Was their sense of superiority racism? Interesting question. It is certainly unclear. I might argue that if it was racism they would treat the Listeners differently than they had when they encountered them. They did not assume the Listeners were slaves, nor did they attempt to enslave them to use as labor based solely on appearance/apparent similarity.  They engaged them as a nation, recognizing their rights to the lands they occupied and negotiating a treaty to use their lands.

Back to the main debate, Eshonai's POV in the prologue to OB demonstrates that even the Listeners saw tremendous differences between themselves and the Parshmen. It comes to mind then, that through some magical or supernatural means, those Listeners who became Parshmen were physically and mentally altered in a way that made them unable to care for themselves. At this point there may be a moral obligation to care for them, but the form of that care (and the labor extracted as a cost of that care) are of concern. 

This reminds me of the difficulty in deciding when someone is no longer capable of consent, such as in the cases of medical powers of attorney or extreme disability. The legal status in the US is of Guardianship or Conservatorship. A Guardian or Conservator is granted the power and authority to make decisions on behalf of the incapacitated person, or ward. To declare that the Parshmen were in no way wronged by modern Rosharans requires the assumption that the Parshmen are so unable to care for themselves that they are incapacitated. This seems to be a good assumption. However, for them to have done no wrong, they must be acting in the ward's best interest and cause no harm. They certainly cannot be financially gaining from the labor of the ward.

Can it be said, in treating them as slaves, that the Rosharan's were acting as responsible and moral guardians of their wards? At best, they were neglectful and wrong. In truth, they were taking advantage of their wards to benefit themselves, and so were acting immorally.

I agree that slavery is hardly the most morally ideal option, but can you offer a feasible alternative? Thousands upon thousands of "people" who can't even care for themselves... everybody take a parshmen and feed them until they fall over dead? Even cattle are more self sufficient. Given that parshmen are not actually human (as in the same species), and they demonstrated no mental capacity for thousands of years, and given that the current generation of Rosharans were born and raised in a world where that was the case as far back as accurate recorded history goes, I just don't see how its less moral than keeping chulls. Human shaped chulls. Now that sounds really harsh and grotesque, but again: what is the feasible alternative? I certainly think individual Rosharan's are guilty of cruelty towards parshmen. That's inevitable. I don't yet see how the current Rosharan population as a whole is guilty in anyway that would justify their whole-scale slaughter.

What matters to me at this point is two things: will Brandon demonstrate they had more mental capacity then so far suggested? Will the Rosharans see the error in continuing to treat them as slaves when they start talking, writing treaties, sailing ships, or doing calculus? If the first, my entire argument falls apart and the Parshmen have been deeply wronged. If the latter... the Rosharans are guilty in the present, and therefore accountable...... but destroying them all??? ...ehhhhhhh

6 hours ago, treblkickd said:

One of the things I find myself struggling with while reading Oathbringer, in fact, is that I don't see how I can consider Dalinar much of a true hero or protagonist; his best case scenario might be some sort of redemption story arc. In this vein, it's darkly amusing that Dalinar is attempting to take up a leadership role in working to unite Roshar peacefully, while he seems completely oblivious to the fact that his own history/actions should pretty much disqualify him from any sort of peacemaking/diplomatic leadership role. Sure, we get to see current Dalinar PoVs that indicate his sincerity, but when you sit back and think about it there's literally no reason for any in-world person, outside of perhaps a few people closest to him, to trust Dalinar "the blackthorn" Kholin as a leader of men. Personally, I would love for a part of Dalinar's story arc to be the realization that he needs to take a back seat to others in the attempt to unite Roshar.

I don't know, I see what you're getting at, but Dalinar is literally a changed person. And I don't think the return of his horrible memories will cause him to become who he once was. And besides that, is repentance not  thing? And I don't just mean in the purely religious sense it comes from; Dalinar is no longer the person he was, and while the people around him aren't obligated to see that and just let go of his crimes, I don't think he is under any obligation to just stop trying to save the world. Surely saving the world is some form of atonement. If everyone utterly refuses to help him thats something else entirely

 

This may be a can of worms, but I'm genuinely curious about the pure, philosophical implication of part of this question.

Racism is primarily characterized by a belief that one race is superior to another. From the point of view of the modern Rosharan humans--considering that the Parshmen literally lacked a serious chunk of cognitive ability--was their sense of superiority racism? I mean, we are acknowledging that, in terms of mental capacity, the Parshmen literally were inferior. 

Now that doesn't change the strong possibility that the initial decision may have been cruel, and those who committed the soul-tearing did something wrong. It also doesn't change the fact that the current Rosharan humans ought to see the change in the Parshmen and treat them with respect as an honest reaction to reality. But--barring any individual acts of legitimate cruelty or unkindess*--I just cant see how the average, modern Rosharan human could be guilty of any wrong towards the Parshmen up until the moment their minds were restored.

And if that's the case, the anger of the Parshmen--though passionate and founded in a true, severe, past injustice--would also be utterly unfounded towards the current Rosharans.

*I'm certain these have taken place, I'm less certain they are attributable to most of the population

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

It is possible it will go this way for sure but from what we have seen I am leaning more towards they have to make a choice to become voidbringers instead of it being against their will. I have nothing to base this on except for the fact they did not automatically become voidbringers it is just a gut feeling. Of course plenty of them can choose to. 

I think I'm with you... I think it will be more voluntary than involuntary.  But they are going to become semi-mindless rage monsters of evil at some point.

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

100% agree on this. It is for sure the exact opposite of what i was anticipating. I guess that it exactly why I like Brandon's books so much. 

Truthfully, I'm kind of expecting this to be a set up for things to go south. So the parshmen are not Voidbringers... yet. I'm wondering if the next time the everstorm passes, or for other reasons in the near future they will be turned Voidbringer somewhat against their will. I just see Kaladin gaining sympathy for them and watching them willingly/unwillingly become monsters to destroy humanity, and it would make the fact that he has to fight them more emotionally impactful.

As further evidence towards my suspicion, consider Eshonai's circumstances along with the Parshendi that followed her. The Parshendi were just as "human" as any other characters until they fell for the trap of bonding with Voidspren, at which point they really were monsters of a sort (Eshonai at the least, I presume the change had similar effects on other Parshendi)

11 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

<on Odium> It looks like he's going to use justified hatred to work his ends.

This is why I'm really interested in Rayse as a character. In the greater story arc I really don't think Rayse/Odium will prove as slimy and despicable as Hoid suggests. We know Hoid used to be friends with Rayse and now holds a grudge against him. Whether Odiums original hatred is actually morally defensible in the end, I do think we will see that it is at least understandable. I expect Rayse will prove to be a very interesting character, and I further hope/suspect we will find him to be somewhat more in control of his shards intent somehow, perhaps because he already had a great deal of hatred before he took up its raw, divine form

As a married man, the fact that Adolin and Shallan have engaged in extended conversation about taking craps and periods is the strongest indicator their relationship is genuine. I'm just waiting for one of them to fart out loud and I'll know It's true love  

...but I feel like not many here do. I see lots of hype for Warbreaker which (though phenomenal) is not my favorite. So am I the only one? I love the Cosmere and I know this book isn't very Cosmere heavy, but its still just good. Hrathen is one of my favorite Sanderson characters and Raoden's optimism is genuinely inspiring to me and I love how tightly tied just about every scene is to the end of the book. This was my first Sanderson novel and it opened my eyes to how incredible climaxes could be. 

Tell me I'm not alone!

On 10/5/2017 at 9:35 AM, Howl007 said:

Any chance there is an online copy or pdf of Dragonsteel. I'm from Europe so no chance of getting the book from the library

Unfortunately, I believe the plea to prevent this very thing from happening is straight from Brandon

You all deserve to hear the Morgan Freeman voice I hear when you make up these quotes: True Facts about the Octopus