aemetha

I think it should read "Stonewards" not "Stonewardens". This is a great table. Can I ask where the information on the Skybreakers resonance comes from, or is that just a guess?

I don't know that Adolin is particularly resilient. I think he has impulse control issues. Aside from the Sadeas incident (which really was the first time he was provoked without someone there to hold him back) he on a number of occasions has leaped before he looked. It's not something that is as obviously crippling as for example Shallans repression or Kaladin's despondency during his SAD occurrences, but it is impairing and not particularly uncommon in someone with a traumatic past. What we see as heroism might simply be how he is broken.

Well, I'm in New Zealand and my source for that particular bit is my Australia/New Zealand psychology text. Well, this kind of gets to the crux of the debate. In America (I'm assuming you're in America?) or in fact most western cultures, a psychologist is very unlikely to argue that, because in the context of that culture someone experiencing hallucinations is disordered. The example I gave of hallucinations is one that was given in one of my counselling classes. Historically western mental health approaches have been very detrimental to Maori culture, and there is now recognition that Maori are better served with a culture-specific health framework called Te whare tapa wha. Spiritual concepts are included in this framework, which is where the issue of hallucinations is viewed very differently. A Maori psychologist treating Maori clients would be very hesitant to pronounce someone disordered solely on the basis of experiencing hallucinations, there would need to be impairment and suffering to make that leap.

This is true in the biomedical model of mental disorders. The biomedical approach is heavily criticised as not including enough attribution of psychological and social factors and the biopsychosocial model attempts to address that. There are underlying pathophysiologies for every single aspect of thought and behaviour. Thinking structurally changes the brain. The brain is a plastic organ that constantly reinvents itself in response to how it is used. Put another way though, one can be neurologically disordered in the view of a medical doctor without being considered mentally disordered in the view of a psychologist. One is about having a brain structure that is abnormal and impairing, the other is about having a thought process that is abnormal and impairing. A psychologist would ask, does the hallucination cause significant suffering and impairment in the psychosocial environment of the person? If not they aren't disordered. A neurologist would ask, is the structure of the brain causing abnormalities? If so they would be disordered.

^ This. Honestly, I don't see a great deal of character growth for Kaladin in having a romantic partner. I'd be much happier if he didn't find one. I don't think he is a fit to having a commitment to any one person. He has already taken on huge commitments. What is left for a partner? Syl wants him to have a partner, I think that is because she doesn't understand that she IS his partner. Her relationship with Kaladin is more intimate than any other spren with their radiant. Pattern is a tool, and comic relief, and curious. Syl is a genuine moral compass and partner in Kaladins decision making. Kaladin looks for her constantly if she isn't there. He was heartbroken when he lost her. I really don't see what a human partner adds to that except sex, and Brandon really doesn't emphasise sex much at all in most of his books (With the exception of Warbreaker where it is a major part of the plot).

I don't think we should really try too hard to find symmetries between Honor and Odium. They are not opposites in the same way as Ruin and Preservation. Honor values the number 10, and order and adherence to rules. Honor looks backwards. Behaviour is related back to prior commitments. This is why Honor is pretty horrible as shards go at predicting the future. Odium values the number 9, and passion, and motivating people towards behaviour. Behaviour follows passion, and is why Odium is better at predicting the future than Honor. He uses passion to corrupt what Honor has created, so you'll see some symmetries there. What is strictly his, and not a corruption of something else created by Honor on the other hand will reflect his holy number, 9.

@Leyrann I think you misunderstand my point. I am absolutely not saying that the suffering or impairment you experience isn't real. Quite the opposite actually. What I am referring to here is that whether you are considered "disordered" is defined by your cultures norms. Thought and behaviour just is, it needs no labelling. We label patterns of thoughts and behaviours that are inconsistent with the majority of our culture as disordered so we know who needs help, or to explain their behaviour in the context of the majority of the culture. If you take a disordered person from American culture, who experiences hallucinations and placed them into a traditional Maori culture, unless they are having particular difficulty as a result of their hallucinations, they would no longer be considered disordered. American culture considers hallucinations to be a serious deviation from cultural norms. Maori culture considers it to be a blessing. The actual labelling of a person is therefore a social construct. At no point does it change the fact that the person suffers hallucinations or anything else about them, it simply changes the social context.

Well killing radiants appears to have been a later development, likely after Ishar became insane. I think since he now advised Nale to side with Odium, it's likely he simply manipulated them into paving the way for Odium's return and that was his end game for a while.

Yes and no. That depends on the cultural norms. Mental disorders are largely social constructs. They are defined by behaviour that falls outside the norms of accepted social behaviour and which causes impairment or suffering. Schizophrenia for example is rarely considered a disorder in certain cultures where hallucinating is considered a blessing. That doesn't make it not a disorder in a culture that doesn't value those same features of the disorder. That's not to be mistaken of course for there being physically no difference in the individuals neural circuitry. All mental disorders and behaviours consistent with mental disorders by the definitions of a particular culture have structural differences in neural functioning. That's just the way the brain works, learning physically alters the structure of the brain, and so learning disordered behaviours results in physical differences. So yes, a person can be very intelligent and logical, without being considered disordered in the context of a culture which views intelligence and logic as normal and not impairing at all. If her behaviours and thoughts fall outside the norms of the culture she would be considered disordered. Whatever affects Jasnah though, would be considered a disorder somewhere, or perhaps even most places - because she is broken. A person can only access investiture if they are broken, and in all cases we've seen so far that involves a measure of impairment and suffering. Kaladin - Seasonal affective disorder. Perfectionism that is unreasonable and impairing. Shallan - Repressed memories. Psychotic breaks. Fractured personality. Dalinar - Early Dalinar is very consistent with antisocial personality disorder. Later Dalinar is overcome with grief and guilt. Renarin - Autism. Severely impaired social skills. Lift - Oh dear, where to start with this one? She thinks her spren is a voidbringer, is a kleptomaniac, continually looks for potentially fatal situations and never wants to grow up. The same applies to people of other worlds who access investiture. There is always something that could be defined as a disorder. In some cases they learn to cope well with it, but it's still there.

Right. Any disorder in the DSM has to meet the minimum qualification of being impaired or distressed or suffering. If that is absent, it is not a disorder. It might be a handicap, but it is not a disorder. You can be ASD spectrum without meeting the minimum deviation from a norm to be disordered. And even then, you may not be disordered unless you are assessed in the context of your own cultuire.

Absolutely agree with that. Our POV interactions with Jasnah are quite limited. Seeing where Brandon takes her is absolutely crucual to understanding where she came from.

This is an astute point. Diagnosing an ASD in women is absolutely more difficult in females than men because the symptoms women present are quite different and more in conformity with societal norms. I do also know several women that meet this definition. My personal definition hinges more on the point that Jasnah's social withdraw according to the POV aspects and observations of her behaviour is more the result of conscious choice rather than impairment. She makes her choices knowing she will be ostracised for them, not because she is not capable of the social interactions necessary to fit within societal norms. ASD is largely not viewed as a handicap overall, but it is a misnomer to assume that a sufferer is as capable of applying societal norms to their circumstance as a more normally ordered person. The may well exceed at aspects such as numerology and mathematics, but impairment occurs in issues such as social interactions. This is not a choice for someone on the ASD, but it is a choice for someone metally disordered along the OCPD spectrum.

Lightweavers are also artists, but artists are very variable in their arts. Elhokar towards the end there was demonstrated considerable artistry when it comes to leading men and strategising, which is absolutely as much an art as drawing images and a very good fit to the way lightweaving influences people.

The lies. Cryptics are attracted to lies and especially self-deceit, and Elhokar tells himself many lies. "People are out to get me", "I can't trust anyone", "I have no real power" etc.

Like the Shin mountains perhaps? A human climbing the wall to find that they are the evil being kept out? Sounds like the same origin story to me, turned into a fable.

I don't know if the unmade are analogous to the fused in the same way the heralds are to the radiants. The numbers don't add up, nor do the characters we've seen. For starters, three of the unmade are essentially mindless, only reacting to stimulus without conscious deliberation. They certainly aren't capable of leading and guiding in any orderly fashion.

I think Ishar's particular brand of insanity is extreme narcissism. He no longer cares about the fate of others, only what he himself can get from it. Like all narcissists he manipulates the others around him to achieve his own ends. I think he is definitely working with Odium now, Nale kind of confirms that. The odds are stacked in Odiums favour at this point, and he has thrown his lot in where he sees the most personal gain for himself.

I don't think the specific cryptic is important except insofar as Hoid is meant to bond with it. The most important thing we've seen Hoid do in all his appearances is collect the magics of the various worlds. This is him collecting the magic of Roshar. As to why a cryptic - because Hoid is a lightweaver. That's where he came from. He's the greatest lightweaver in the cosmere in all likelihood. A cryptic is the best fit to him.

I agree with @Argent Void/Surge binding is related to the surges. Odium's holy number might be nine, but that doesn't change that there are still ten surges to be manipulated by the binders. The exact manifestations of the surges may differ in some ways as evidenced by Dalinar and the Stonewardens not applying the same surge in the same manner, but the surges themselves seem to be related to a more global mechanic than simply the holy numbers of the Shards concerned.

I think Jasnah is a good fit to the symptoms of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not to be confused with obsessive compulsive disorder), except that she (from what we've seen) doesn't meet the criteria for significant impairment or distress to be diagnosed with a mental disorder. I think it's a better fit than Aspergers because Jasnah, while obviously not being particularly sociable is unsociable by choice, not by impairment. Here's a pretty good description of the disorder from http://albertellis.org/personality-disorders/ Regarding the childhood illness, pretty much every mental illness can be explained in the diathesis-stress model. A traumatic childhood experience very often leads to the development of a mental disorder in later life. The Kholins (having three "broken" members that we know of) certainly suggests a hereditary diathesis, in Jasnah's case combined with the childhood illness led to a mental disorder that opened her up to becoming Radiant.

Yeah, I just don't discount the possibility. As far as I'm concerned nobody in the cosmere is dead unless they die on screen, their spren is witnessed departing, their eyes are burned out, their corpse is autopsied to check for hidden allomantic reserves, the corpse is then reassembled and awakened as a lifeless, and someone travels to the cognitive realm and witnesses the soul departing. It's possible I am exercising an overabundance of prudence though.

It's never been accounted for where Yesteel is outside of rumour. Vasher was pursuing them all though. We assume he is on Roshar for the easy investiture, but he could as easily be there chasing someone else with much to gain from easy investiture. Hard to say with Nightblood still yet to be written.

There's only one problem I see with the original post here... There are at least three awakeners on Roshar, and a distinct possibility of a fourth.

WoB on Honor's perpendicularity moving. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1525

I don't think this is the case. From the chapter 38 epigraph (emphasis mine). Note, refused, not gave up is the phrasing used.