Dund

I guess in a fantasy world it is. In real life, nope. Especially not one who's only learnt to wield a sword for a few months, and from the descriptions, isn't physically imposing at all. It is in fact quite difficult to take a persons head off whom is kneeling prostrate with their neck bared on a stone block in one go. That can often take multiple tries, even by someone experienced in performing it. But not a massive issue that I couldn't get over, I was more just pointing it out I guess. I was hoping as Elend was talking to Jastes, that he'd have the balls to take him out, not thinking he would, but happily surprised that he did and in spectacular fashion. I've seen plenty of that in fantasy, it happens all the time. The difference I think is that most fantasy authors don't have their magic systems anywhere near as well fleshed out as BS, giving them an easy out with their characters able to pull things off when they feel like it to get out of trouble. But in this situation it's been specifically mentioned what the result of this particular magic use should be. As I understand it building up a tolerance as you say, would be like building up a tolerance to be able to run at 30 miles an hour non stop for a few days without assistance. i.e. The body can't no matter the training. I thought the full weight of that was supposed to be felt by what is without pewter just a normal flesh and bone human being. And a small one at that in Vin. I could just be understanding it wrong though I guess. But I had that in my mind as she was running and fully expected Vin to at least the very least keel over unconscious when she ran out of pewter. That was actually more concerning to me reading the sequence than her actually getting back in time. It seemed obvious to me she would get back in time somehow, at least to save the crew and likely some portion of the people in the city, or that they would find a way themselves to get out. In fact I read BS' annotation for that chapter and he wasn't happy with it as he also thought it may not carry enough tension with some readers simply expecting Vin to get back in time. I was somewhat surprised that a few of the crew got killed off, although less surprised that the characters were all pretty much the least idealistic members of the crew (booo!!). I quite liked that Tindwyl was somewhat providing the voice of hard reason in the group (and Dockson also), I hope that gets replaced by someone, to play off the others. I think it would have carried more impact had say Sazed been the one killed, but I highly doubt anything bad will happen to any of the overly idealistic characters in the story.

Coming towards the end of the second book. I have to say I liked Elend finally having the balls to do something drastic, harsh and necessary like kill Jastes, but his evolution to that point still seems somewhat unnatural to me. Too much of the timid farmer boy turned confident hero. It's a pretty big jump from where he was. I also found it kinda unrealistic that he was able to draw his sword and cut of his head, just like that. He's not a mistborn or a thug, and that feat would have been difficult for someone really strong to do to someone with their head on a block in one go, much less in direct confrontation, where I find it difficult to believe Jastes had no time to react. Also Vin running back to Luthadel. After she ran out of pewter why the hell didn't she collapse and pretty much die? It was made pretty clear in the first book that the pewter dragging could be lethal due to the fact that if you run out of pewter then the strain of the force put on your body overwhelms you. If she went harder than she did in the first book as it said, then without some pewter to draw on she should pretty much be dead, or at the very least unconscious. Seems kinda inconsistent, given consistency of Sanderson's magic worlds is meant to be one of his main strengths.

With your first point I think Vin is ruthless. Or at least it's portrayed she is. She believes rightly that everyone is ruthless because she understands that is what is required to survive. That is the impression I get anyway. Ruthlessness in and of itself isn't a negative quality, it's simply a requirement for survival in a dog eat dog world. Therefore to me it stands to reason that she would admire the quality in others, not admire it's absence. You don't admire a quality you value highly that is missing in someone. That's what I would read her as anyway, she should be a product of her environment and upbringing, as I mentioned in my previous post. She shouldn't be your typical sheltered girl dreaming of honourable princes etc (I know she isn't and doesn't dream of that, but you get what I mean, as it relates to Elend). I think if you read about people that grow up in harsh environments/societies that is generally the way it works, they value the very harshness that in some ways has repressed them above all else. It's what makes them strong and better able to survive. Vin is a survivor that has used that quality and I think understands it's value and it's necessity. I think for me it seems like a softening of what should be a harsh character that she makes allowances for Elend that she doesn't for herself or seemingly everyone else also. Anyway, we could prob argue this for ages, I guess I'm taking the more cynical view on character development, while you are taking the optimistic view.

That first part I already agree with. BS characters don't seem like they are cookie cutter types in the end, even if initially they do. My issue is more the prevailing vibe in the story seems to continually talk about good and bad. If I read a full page with Vin internally assessing whether someone is good or bad, then the same with Sazed, then the same with Elend, it starts to feel like BS is pushing that agenda even though the characters themselves are more well drawn than that. So it feels a little bit contradictory, like BS knows full well how to create complex grey characters, but still wants to push the good vs bad thing in other ways. On your last point, I guess I could understand a physical attraction, but not personality wise. I just don't understand how Vin can respect someone whom isn't ruthless, more like Kelsier, as opposed to the soft, sheltered Elend. For me given her background and the way she is, it seems like she would respect that quality in someone more than anything else, and it's just not there with Elend. I guess it seems like to me Brandon is trying to make her softer as a character than she should be given her upbringing. She seems a little too accepting of weakness when it comes to Elend, when she does not accept it of anyone else, and that just seems convenient, and IMO gives the relationship an unnatural vibe. Plus her clingyness. Whenever they are together she always seems to be grabbing him or clutching him etc. Which I guess is supposed to relate to the trust issues, but still.

I wasn't saying the person is unrealistic per say. Just the person is unrealistic within their position in the world of the novel. Idealistic Elend doesn't make for a good king, and while I can see how they are building him and gearing him up to change and become a great king, it seems kind of convenient to have all these things happen to improve his ability to become king, starting with the overly convenient arrival of Tindwyl. If I were an idealist (I probably am a bit despite the cynicism), I would actually probably not want to read about me. I know what I am, and would rather read about different personalities. Plus I don't really see me being a hero in a gritty rough war torn world, at least not in any kind of realistic way. People irl today are a product of a (relatively) peaceful world, just like the people in a war torn chaotic world should be a product of that. I know I'd be a completely different person growing up in medieval Europe. So I sort of try to identify the people with the world they live in to some extent, rather than our world. Medieval based worlds of fantasy should be somewhat more chaotic and perhaps primitive in their societal values than our world by default. Then plus some if you make the world particularly grim. Basically idealists thrive in a world where their ideas can be protected, which is obviously something we have a lot of with freedom of speech etc and the armies to protect those values. In a world where that protection doesn't really exist, I guess I expect it to be much more muted and scarce. And if it does appear for it to be put down fairly quickly. Otherwise I guess to me it seems kinda unrealistic. Also I understand they are going for the opposites attract thing with Elend and Vin, but I just don't get how she is opening up at all trust wise to someone she has nothing in common with and from both of their POV's, they barely understand each other. Vin is now questioning that trust and rightly so, but apparently they have been together a year? I find it difficult to understand how they built their relationship up to what it was at the start of the second book understanding each other so little. What the hell were they doing in that year, avoiding each other? Yet they are still intimate at the start. I wouldn't say that is a major issue for me though, it's only a minor quibble with the book. I think the issue has to do with how the character struggles to hang onto their ideals. Often times they are not done very believably. So many novels use predictable and convenient plot devices in order to have their idealistic heroes keep their honor and also save the day that it becomes tiresome. Whereas the selfish character simply fits a selfish gritty medieval world better. An idealistic character used in the right setting and done well can of course be interesting to read about. I usually tend to find I like them when they aren't the hero of the story though, but more supporting characters, because I find they just don't fit that role as well due to an abundance of the issues I mentioned above.

Well I haven't finished Well of Ascension yet, so I'm not 100% certain if you are referring to things that haven't happened or not. I also never said BS works are totally idealistic. I said they are heavily bent towards it. For example at the moment I seem to be bombarded with a lot of referencing to how good people are, or how bad they are. Sazed and Vin with their internal monologues seem to be continually going on about it, as does Tindwyl it just seems to be a part of the story. Elend is a good man, Straff is a bad evil man. And on it goes. Thankfully the characters are drawn a bit better than that, as you say, but that kind of contradicts what I'm reading. Like BS created some complex interesting characters, but couldn't help throwing in a bit of idealistic black and white thinking into the story to contradict it. I already explained I feel like Sanderson gives his characters more complexity than most of the stock standard fantasy that is out there. I've ultimately been praising him, with just some minor criticisms. He toes a line, he uses highly idealistic characters in a setting where they probably shouldn't succeed, giving them more complexity than usual, but he still uses plot devices to advance characters IMO in somewhat unbelievable ways that cheat a little bit so that said characters develop to where they can succeed while keeping their ideals in tact. In any case a lot of my previous post was directed at the majority of fantasy in general and not just at Mr Sanderson's work. Oh and this has nothing to do with anything, but I just thought of it. Shouldn't Mistborn and/or Tineyes be getting it on quite a bit? I would think having that particular allomantic power would be particularly useful in the old sackaroony. I hazard a guess using the power in that way has never even crossed Brandon's mind...

Sanderson certainly seems very set on there being good and evil in the world, which I disagree with and goes against the world Martin tries to portray. Everyone has the ability to do good and bad things, but no one is inherently evil or inherently good like BS seems to push. At least he has some (seemingly) gray characters in his books though to somewhat offset this. I've never really liked reading about idealists. They often seem more full of themselves and arrogant/self righteous than the tyrants in novels. I love anti heroes. It just seems more natural and real for me for someone to be human and not necessarily want to hurt others, but ultimately be on the lookout for number 1. None of this I will give my life for the people crap. In fact I sometimes enjoy watching the good guys lose and the bad guys win, as long as the characters show some depth to them, which is why ASoIaF never really got me all that depressed about it's world. The natural instinct is to cheer for the good guys and boo the bad, but if the characters are well drawn enough, I sometimes feel drawn towards the bad ones. Not necessarily because I fully empathise with them, though I might, but because they are just interesting to read about. Such as the machiavellian Littlefinger. I quite enjoyed seeing his manipulations unfold in the first few books, even if he caused a lot of bad things to happen to some of the "good" characters. He might not be someone I'd ever want to meet, but very interesting to read about. I think it ruined me, because before that I used to read the more fairytale type fantasy novels with those idealistic characters and happy endings, and enjoyed them fine. Now I struggle to somewhat as I find them to be tedious and boring and find myself wanting bad things to happen to the "hero". So Martin has pretty much ruined me as far as where he's set the bar for my expectations for characters. I'm more cynical about it I guess. I think BS treads a fine line, as I said, it's clear he wants his novels to head down the prototypical fantasy good v evil tale, but seems to put in just enough depth with the characters and story to be a little bit more than that.

Gah, seems like spoilers dont stay hidden when quoting. Somehow managed not to see much more than something about Sazed and Tindwyl, though that's probably not much of a suprise, and Breeze and the girl. I've actually got past a scene after the post I made above that more fully explains the separate bedroom thing, so that's fine, and seems a more acceptable. To be honest as soon as I find myself thinking about how cliched and predictable a character is in his actions or thoughts, BS (great initials to have btw) seems to have some internal or external dialogue with said character that addresses them. It doesn't always make up for it, but it does make it a little more interesting to read about. Reading a few of his annotations for each chapter on his site it seems like he thought through those cliche's and ways to get around them. Doesn't always work, but at least he makes the effort to, which many fantasy authors don't. And it's quite good that Elend's complete unsuitability to the task is called into question, but Im not sure I buy how quickly he's improving his leadership skills, and again BS seems to mention this as an issue in one of his chapter annotations. I also agree with the Elend, Vin relationship and the maturity level thing. I just find it hard to visualise Vin being so desperately attached to someone like Elend. Kelsier yes, but Elend not really. She just doesn't seem like the kind of female that would take much interest in someone so idealistic and sheltered, when she knows much better given her own upbringing. Doesn't seem like a natural fit at all. Given they are so abstinent in many ways in their relationship, both in regards to sex and emotionally in terms of opening up with each other, the touchy feeliness in their scenes together also seems wrong. Like they simply don't have enough of a connection with each other for them to be so openly affectionate, especially in public, where Vin seems to always be clinging onto him. It's like that part was rushed to without having their relationship developed enough. I actually wouldn't have given any of this much thought if they were more stand offish in terms of the level of affection they show towards each other in their scenes, as it would have fit better given where they seemed to be in their relationship. Plus as I said, I kind of felt like Vin was a bit of an asexual character from the first book which just adds to it feeling off. In any case, I'm not convinced, but am coming around to it as I go through. Plus things are picking up a bit, as it was a bit slow at the start there with not much else to focus on. I will say reading Song of Ice and Fire really was an eye opener. I never used to give much thought to any of this, but since reading that my expectations of character complexity rose about a billion times.

I guess that's why I find Elend a somewhat tedious boring character (so far). The charming idealist full of proper morals and manners. I don't find it viable for someone like that to be a leader in a time of war, where it's survival of the fittest, dog eat dog etc. I understand he's getting training, which kind of seems an overly convenient plot device. George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire is prob my fav fantasy series (though I know the last two books have made things a bit unwieldy) but it shows how war treats people like Elend. They usually end up dead or lying in the gutter somewhere nearly so. It's meant to be harsh. However I'll give Mr Sanderson credit, he generally gives even those stock standard cliche characters more depth than most. I'm up to the part Elend is getting training, I just hope that he doesn't go all super charismatic leader all of a sudden which would be unrealistic. Though Sanderson's character development has been pretty good so far in the books of his I've read, so I don't expect this. I have to say Zane is a much more interesting character, though I've only read a chapter from his viewpoint. I've read Goodkind's Sword of Truth, the sex in there seems mostly for his own titillation purposes, which can also be overdone especially in the first book with the s&m scenes, though I did find the series entertaining if a tad preachy.

While I would expect that they would have sex, being in the same room doesn't even have to fully imply that. It would just make sense purely from the point of view of Vin sleeping in the same room as Elend due to the fact that she feels the need to protect him. They could even have two separate beds in the room if it came to that. Why would Vin wish to have a separate room when she often can't even bare him to be out of her sight? It makes practical sense for her to sleep in his room, as separate from anything sexual, and that fact that they are supposed to be in a relationship I would have thought made it fait accompli, even if they did choose not to do the deed. I'm pretty sure she actually did sleep in his room on the floor in their first scene in the book. Also from what I gather, neither of them have much interest in religion, so I don't see how belief would be a factor. If you were to go down that path you could have just made them religious. Your explanations about their history make some sense though. But ultimately my post wasn't really about sex or at least it's only a small part of it. It was about an intimate relationship and how it works on an emotional level, which seems non-existant so far. I think it works far better if they are just friends and keep all the touchy stuff out of it. But I'll keep reading and see how it pans out. I've read both Elantris and Warbreaker, and thought both were very good. The romances weren't even a thought to me in those because they were practically non existent so I mostly ignored them. They only really came to a head towards the end of each book.

Fair enough. I like Vin's character the most, and probably just prefer her out kicking someones chull, rather than being in ill fitting scenes with Elend, that for me detract from her as a character. It would be nice if she found someone to be with that was mistborn, and could properly relate to her, like that stalker dude whoever it is. Or she were just a pure loner assassin. Can't say I'd be sad were Elend killed off somehow. He seems like a weak character and I can't understand why the book tries so hard to make it seem important that Elend is protected (mainly Vin I guess), like it would be really bad if he were killed/assassinated. He's no Kelsier, I'm sure they could bring someone in who could do if not as good a job then close enough, and quite possibly better as King. Anyway back to the book then

I know it's not meant to be a romantic series, but I prefer those to not have much in the way of romances in them, so you don't have to really think about that at all, or have it be between secondary characters that don't get much time in the book. I quite enjoy reading well done romances, but hate reading rushed or poorly put together ones, and would rather read a book without any at all. The romance between Elend and Vin seems to take up either a lot of the scenes either between the two, or if they are apart they seem to be thinking about each a fair bit so it is difficult to ignore. It therefore needs to be well done IMO if you are going to devote a lot of pages to it (which there has been so far). And yes, Im up to Part 2 of the second book. Hopefully their romance either starts to pick up a bit or less time is devoted to it, because it's kind of annoying to read through and for me seems a bit out of place and jolts me a bit out of the immersion in the rest of the story. Vin just acts like a clingy little child, and as much as I realise she has abandonment issues, it just doesn't seem like a very appealing way of illustrating that fact, when the rest of the time she is going around kicking peoples asses. Also it's not about titillation either. Their interactions are kind of bland. I guess I just don't think their characters match in a romantic way. Vin does not open up to him whatsoever (they have apparently been together a year, so it's not as if they would be just getting to know each other) so the closeness of their interactions doesn't feel natural given that. Vin makes it pretty clear that no one but a mistborn could ever really understand her, which makes sense, but makes her supposed strong attachment to Elend just seem even more strange. I guess I bring it up because it's the first time in the books so far where there has been scenes that have made me think and not just be immersed in the story. Basically it kind of feels like they just started getting touchy feely with each other without developing any kind of real relationship whatsoever. Like a relationship of convenience that permeates a significant number of fantasy stories these days. Plus I think in the back of my mind I've always kind of thought of Vin as an asexual kind of character from the first book, even with the balls and what not. So that just adds to the unnaturalness of it also. But if it picks up later on in the story then grand.

Does anyone else find their relationship to be somewhat flat? I'm part way through Well of Ascension, so maybe it improves, but I find that I'm pretty disappointed by their relationship so far. It seemed interesting the way it developed in the first book, but it just seems like it's passionless so far. They have been together a year, but there's no real romantic tension between them whatsoever. They don't even feel like lovers, just good friends, whom seem to have an awkward preteen level affection for each other (they sleep in separate rooms??). It just makes it difficult to relate to as an adult, the romance kind of seems out of place and unrealistic, like reading about two 13 year olds having an awkward coming of age dalliance. I'm not talking about graphic sex scenes or anything of the sort, I know Brandon has no intention of ever doing that, and that can also be awkward and out of place. But there are other ways to show intimacy between lovers that don't involve anything graphic, or even the two characters touching, it can simply be through dialogue or in other subtle ways that foreshadow scenes that we don't see. But there is none of that whatsoever, and I kind of think that either you do a romance properly or you don't do it at all, or at least you don't devote many scenes to it, half hearted doesn't work. It detracts somewhat from both characters and their relationship. It seems to me that it would be better if Vin were not involved in a romantic relationship at all, and the two don't seem to mesh that way personality wise either. Their scenes together where they do show affection seem somewhat forced, and Vin's transformation from powerful allomancer into a clingy child doesn't really promote sympathy for her character whatsoever, more the opposite. And that in turn actually makes their relationship seem even more awkward and out of place, because I don't see why Elend shows such attraction to a person whom while alone around him seems little more than an emotionally damaged child. His descriptions of her in their scenes together as a 'woman' just seem like a contradiction that doesn't fit given the way she acts. Basically they seem like they should make for good friends and that's it. I kind of find myself hoping that she leaves Elend, and either finds someone that meshes with her character better, or just goes solo. Though I fully expect that won't happen. Anyone agree? And does the relationship improve later in the books?